ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

[cjfrbw]

I think it’s time to retire and open up that high end audio store in Dubai.

The store can have a “Poet’s Corner” where Femer and Valin will do a laying on of hands and spin exotic verse for the customers’ purchases, for a small emolument, of course.

Romy the Cat can be Chief of Sales, and will bring customers to such spluttering rage with finely veiled contempt that they will throw down their triple platinums to buy the the most expensive items in the store and storm out just to show him.

 

[thedudeabides]

The store can have a “Poet’s Corner” where Femer and Valin will do a laying on of hands and spin exotic verse for the customers’ purchases, for a small emolument, of course.

Valin and Fremer are not on the same planet regarding the quality of their reviews and integrity.

Mikey fully admits in his video what he he has personally purchased and what's on "semi-permanent" loan. To the best of my knowledge and unlike Valin, he has actually bought (albeit with a discount) much of his current reference system.

 

[knghifi]

I had the great pleasure of listening to the VAC and Lamm's at Mike's last night. The VAC's are excellent; terrific bass (better than the Darts) and the power reserve to handle all dynamic passages. The overall character is actually quite similar to the Darts with a slight tube flavor. My one question is how much more performance would rolling in NOS 6sn7 tubes compared to the stock Psvane tubes? OTOH, it would be a tall order finding 10 matched NOS tubes!

I know several VAC owners replaced 6sn7 with Shuguang Black Treasure CV181-Z. It's a more linear and higher resolution tube. Also one can roll KT120 and KT150's in the amp. If I was going for 450, definitely buy or upgrade to 450 iq

Here's Kevin Hayes explaining benefits of iq system.

 

[PeterA]

Valin and Fremer are not on the same planet regarding the quality of their reviews and integrity.

Mikey fully admits in his video what he he has personally purchased and what's on "semi-permanent" loan. To the best of my knowledge and unlike Valin, he has actually bought (albeit with a discount) much of his current reference system.

I think you are right regarding ownership. I don't know how that effects one's ability to write a review and convey listening impressions. I do think that Valin is a much better writer and can convey, to me at least, what he is hearing. Fremer's reviews are also very informative, but not nearly as well written. They both have their priorities, tastes and personalities.

 

[caesar]

I think you are right regarding ownership. I don't know how that effects one's ability to write a review and convey listening impressions. I do think that Valin is a much better writer and can convey, to me at least, what he is hearing. Fremer's reviews are also very informative, but not nearly as well written. They both have their priorities, tastes and personalities.

Hi Peter,
Ever wonder if what you wrote would still hold if you didn't share Valin's taste?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I had the great pleasure of listening to the VAC and Lamm's at Mike's last night. The VAC's are excellent; terrific bass (better than the Darts) and the power reserve to handle all dynamic passages. The overall character is actually quite similar to the Darts with a slight tube flavor. My one question is how much more performance would rolling in NOS 6sn7 tubes compared to the stock Psvane tubes? OTOH, it would be a tall order finding 10 matched NOS tubes!

The ML3's are more liquid, with more tone color and even better bass; perhaps the best bass I've ever heard. We did hit their dynamic limits a couple of times during our session. The highlight was the tape of Miles Davis "At The Blackhawk"...spooky good!

This is very interesting to get a report comparing the Lamms to the VACs.

Did you listen to any vocals? If so how would you compare the ML3s to the VAC on vocals?

 

[Ron Resnick]

But, I think Ron listens mostly to small music and yet he bought Pendragons and wants big power on them...so much for the theory of the music drives the gear choice...

I have noticed it is often the 180 degrees the other way...the gear one owns tends to drive the music preferences at least on that system.

I continue to advocate using my analytical framework to better understand where each of us is coming from, and to minimize the amount of "talking past each other," which I believe happens very, very frequently in our discussions.

I continue to believe very strongly, Brad, that musical preference is a significant driver of equipment preference. You (and, I am afraid, Mike) I think are misunderstanding my selection of a big speaker system for music other than big symphony orchestral music. I think (meaning only me -- Peter A and Al M obviously feel differently) a large system like Ultra 11, MM7s, and Pendragons gives you the ability to create the entire acoustic space of a small music venue better than small speakers. (The fact that the big speakers are better on big classical pieces is, for me, just an added bonus.)

Further, I have posted repeatedly that if I listened primarily to jazz I would get Acapella, Cessaro or Viva horns. Again, musical preference drives my speaker choice.

I believe the definition of “big power” depends upon the sensitivity of the speakers. On 102 dB sensitive speakers 30 watts is big power. On 89dB sensitive speakers 30 watts is "flea" power (an amateur radio expression for transmitters with 5w output or less, or "QRP") and 300, 400, 500 watts is, to me, big power).

I am not looking primarily at big push-pull power (VTL Seigfried, ARC 750, VAC 450) of hundreds of watts; I have posted repeatedly I’m looking for an SET solution. On 89dB sensitive speakers 100 to 150 watts is not, to me, “big power.”

 

[PeterA]

Hi Peter,
Ever wonder if what you wrote would still hold if you didn't share Valin's taste?

I don't see your point. I share only some of his taste. He likes the Pass X350, I do not. He likes the Magico Q5, I do not. He thinks the Q1 is better than the Mini 2. I do not. And those are only regarding the brands that you must be presuming in your question. I do agree with him about the M3 and the AirTight Supreme cartridge. Beyond that Caesar, I don't think Valin and I agree on much. He likes Ortofon cartridges for example, I do not. He likes Solution, Tech Brain, Constellation, Raidho etc.

I don't share his taste in a general sense, nor do I like the stories I've heard about his ethics. But, I think he is a good writer, regardless of his taste in gear. So no, I do not wonder if what I wrote holds true. It was and still is my opinion.

 

[PeterA]

I continue to advocate using my analytical framework to better understand where each of us is coming from, and to minimize the amount of "talking past each other," which I believe happens very, very frequently in our discussions.

I continue to believe very strongly, Brad, that musical preference is a significant driver of equipment preference. You (and, I am afraid, Mike) I think are misunderstanding my selection of a big speaker system for music other than big symphony orchestral music. I think (meaning only me -- Peter A and Al M obviously feel differently) a large system like Ultra 11, MM7s, and Pendragons gives you the ability to create the entire acoustic space of a small music venue better than small speakers. (The fact that the big speakers are better on big classical pieces is, for me, just an added bonus.)

Ron, I don't disagree with you about a big speaker system's ability to create the entire acoustic space of a small music venue better than small speakers. I think it depends in large part on the room one has and the speaker system it can support. Where I am yet to be convinced is a large speaker system's ability to disappear in the soundfield as well as a small speaker. And we are not talking about any small speaker, but rather a highly capable small speaker like my Magico Mini 2 and Al's Ref 3A monitors. I did recently hear the Magico M3 completely disappear and become invisible in a large room leaving only a single musician playing his clarinet in a life like scale and convincing manner. It was impressive. Perhaps larger speaker systems can do that too. I have not yet heard it, but I have an open mind and believe in the possibility.

A lot of things have to come together with a large system. The room has to handle it. The rest of the system has to support it. And if all is well sorted, only large systems can reproduce large scale music convincingly. That I have heard. If they can also reproduce small scale, a solo cello for instance, convincingly and disappear completely and remain coherent and present the right scale, then I'm all in. I would like to hear such a system that can do it all. I just don't have the room or the budget to do it myself.

 

[jazdoc]

This is very interesting to get a report comparing the Lamms to the VACs.

Did you listen to any vocals? If so how would you compare the ML3s to the VAC on vocals?

Ron,

I'm pretty sure we didn't do a comparison with vocal tracks. Good excuse for another visit ! I would say that the vocals on the Gutter Twin's LP were exceptional; I heard things with the Lamm's that I had never heard before.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Valin and Fremer are not on the same planet regarding the quality of their reviews and integrity.

Mikey fully admits in his video what he he has personally purchased and what's on "semi-permanent" loan. To the best of my knowledge and unlike Valin, he has actually bought (albeit with a discount) much of his current reference system.

+1

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,

I'm pretty sure we didn't do a comparison with vocal tracks. Good excuse for another visit ! I would say that the vocals on the Gutter Twin's LP were exceptional; I heard things with the Lamm's that I had never heard before.

Thank you, jazdoc!

 

[Tango]

Where I am yet to be convinced is a large speaker system's ability to disappear in the soundfield as well as a small speaker. And we are not talking about any small speaker, but rather a highly capable small speaker like my Magico Mini 2 and Al's Ref 3A monitors. I did recently hear the Magico M3 completely disappear and become invisible in a large room leaving only a single musician playing his clarinet in a life like scale and convincing manner. It was impressive. Perhaps larger speaker systems can do that too. I have not yet heard it, but I have an open mind and believe in the possibility.

A lot of things have to come together with a large system. The room has to handle it. The rest of the system has to support it. And if all is well sorted, only large systems can reproduce large scale music convincingly. That I have heard. If they can also reproduce small scale, a solo cello for instance, convincingly and disappear completely and remain coherent and present the right scale, then I'm all in. I would like to hear such a system that can do it all. I just don't have the room or the budget to do it myself.

Good large speakers with proper setup can do the disappearing act as well or even better than small monitors, Peter. I did own the MiniII with Arc 610T so I do understand your experience with the Mini monitors. Not only the disappearing ability but also the ability to image vocal and instrument in a precise manner too. My GammaS are 2.1 meter high with huge lower horn diameter of 1+ meter...look very imposing. But when music is played, they become just a big sculpture. In fact, they do disappear even better than my old Mini in my current room now, because I can spread them apart more, my ceiling height is also more (4 meters), there is just more space to breath. I could have whole jazz band in actual size between two towers with two meters of empty air above the music. Ron’s mentioning of the big speakers ability to create entire acoustic space of a small music or recording venue also attribute to the disappearing act. One thing I just realize is how advantageous your system can be if your room has height.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[caesar]

I don't see your point. I share only some of his taste. He likes the Pass X350, I do not. He likes the Magico Q5, I do not. He thinks the Q1 is better than the Mini 2. I do not. And those are only regarding the brands that you must be presuming in your question. I do agree with him about the M3 and the AirTight Supreme cartridge. Beyond that Caesar, I don't think Valin and I agree on much. He likes Ortofon cartridges for example, I do not. He likes Solution, Tech Brain, Constellation, Raidho etc.

I don't share his taste in a general sense, nor do I like the stories I've heard about his ethics. But, I think he is a good writer, regardless of his taste in gear. So no, I do not wonder if what I wrote holds true. It was and still is my opinion.

Thanks for clarifying, Peter. Makes sense with the extra context you provided...

Everything else aside, God knows it's been covered, I find both of them excellent writers... Valin is an excellent writer, and he's always comparing some "transparency to source"/ sometimes analytical system to "as you like it"/ colored system to make his point. (Valin's imagination of "real" is completely different than Harry Peason's, however. Nola and Scaena vs. Magico.) Valin's approach is a more grand, sense-of-life perspective a la Peggy Noonan and Maureen Dowd.

Fremer, on the other hand, is also an excellent writer. Some of his wit comes through in his writing for extra entertainment points and helpful product tidbits. Although he captures the "big picture", Fremer does a lot more of micro comparisons between gear that really nail the sonic signature of the component, saving people a lot of auditioning time and helping to avoidi listening to stuff they are just not interested in.

 

[XV-1]

I think you are right regarding ownership. I don't know how that effects one's ability to write a review and convey listening impressions. I do think that Valin is a much better writer and can convey, to me at least, what he is hearing. Fremer's reviews are also very informative, but not nearly as well written. They both have their priorities, tastes and personalities.

Personally I find Valin waffles on way too much. Fremer is to the point and I find his reviews a lot more enjoyable. I can understand why one Valin would be preferable to Fremer thou.

Always in the back of my mind I find Valins reviews almost seem like cash for comment/ advertorial but that may be harsh.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Peter i have to agree with you , small speakers do a better disappearing act ,... those speakers dissapear with the low freq. never to be seen again

Greetings from Wuxi , China

 

[andromedaaudio]

I played a lot of tape last weekend incl double bass cello piano violin / ultra analogue and others
The lowest tone of a double bass is around 30 hz , sounds nice ... on tape that is.
Tape can also produce the air around the instrument

 

[RogerD]

Ron, I don't disagree with you about a big speaker system's ability to create the entire acoustic space of a small music venue better than small speakers. I think it depends in large part on the room one has and the speaker system it can support. Where I am yet to be convinced is a large speaker system's ability to disappear in the soundfield as well as a small speaker. And we are not talking about any small speaker, but rather a highly capable small speaker like my Magico Mini 2 and Al's Ref 3A monitors. I did recently hear the Magico M3 completely disappear and become invisible in a large room leaving only a single musician playing his clarinet in a life like scale and convincing manner. It was impressive. Perhaps larger speaker systems can do that too. I have not yet heard it, but I have an open mind and believe in the possibility.

A lot of things have to come together with a large system. The room has to handle it. The rest of the system has to support it. And if all is well sorted, only large systems can reproduce large scale music convincingly. That I have heard. If they can also reproduce small scale, a solo cello for instance, convincingly and disappear completely and remain coherent and present the right scale, then I'm all in. I would like to hear such a system that can do it all. I just don't have the room or the budget to do it myself.

Interesting that a large system would have problems disappearing. I have a large system with 23 drivers total with the ability to completely become invisible on most classical discs and other well recorded pieces. All I can say is the ability of the drivers to cast a ever widening dispersion pattern was tied directly to increased grounding of the components. The system always has had this quality,but even more so now. I can't give a good technical explanation,but all I can say it has been a quantum change.

 

[morricab]

I continue to advocate using my analytical framework to better understand where each of us is coming from, and to minimize the amount of "talking past each other," which I believe happens very, very frequently in our discussions.

I continue to believe very strongly, Brad, that musical preference is a significant driver of equipment preference. You (and, I am afraid, Mike) I think are misunderstanding my selection of a big speaker system for music other than big symphony orchestral music. I think (meaning only me -- Peter A and Al M obviously feel differently) a large system like Ultra 11, MM7s, and Pendragons gives you the ability to create the entire acoustic space of a small music venue better than small speakers. (The fact that the big speakers are better on big classical pieces is, for me, just an added bonus.)

Further, I have posted repeatedly that if I listened primarily to jazz I would get Acapella, Cessaro or Viva horns. Again, musical preference drives my speaker choice.

I believe the definition of “big power” depends upon the sensitivity of the speakers. On 102 dB sensitive speakers 30 watts is big power. On 89dB sensitive speakers 30 watts is "flea" power (an amateur radio expression for transmitters with 5w output or less, or "QRP") and 300, 400, 500 watts is, to me, big power).

I am not looking primarily at big push-pull power (VTL Seigfried, ARC 750, VAC 450) of hundreds of watts; I have posted repeatedly I’m looking for an SET solution. On 89dB sensitive speakers 100 to 150 watts is not, to me, “big power.”

I will be curious to see what you will be spinning on those Pendragons once you have it up and running...I suspect it won't be largely what you say are your current preferences... The gear will guide your music preference I suspect...

If you wanted to stay "neutral" in that regard then a big electrostat like the Sound Labs Majestic would work as it will deliver the goods with most music. A mid-sized, well integrated horn like the AC Symphonia will also remain relatively genre agnostic. Most other speakers will push their owners in a direction...often without their realization.

People on this thread seem to be needing 400-500 watts on a 97db speaker...

 

[dctom]

Someone mentioned Fremer earlier.

He has just reviewed Ypsilon's Hyperion mono power amps - most musically enjoyable he has heard and he has the Dart 458s.
Looks like Mike's next on the list to audition.