Is Wilson losing their marketing edge?
- Thread starter caesar
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Hi Peter, I am not suggesting it's all Valin. But it's safe to say that Valin's marketing of Magico is unparalleled in the industry. Nothing wrong with that, as it's not illegal, but it has to be pointed out. (Like every one here, I would love to be a fly on the wall when Valin and Wolf converse!) Yet at the same time, Valin has violated and shattered the brand promise of TAS by so much cheerleading of the analytical/ transparency to source Q series. But hey, as long as his needs are met, who cares about anyone else?
Valin's biggest contribution has been top of mind awareness of the Magico brand: tell, tell, and retell the magico brand story in emotionally laden terms. We discussed a lot of this in the luxury thread:
...But assuming the sonic signature of the gear appeals to one’s taste, best brands have a good story to tell that appeals to the individual. By good story, I mean it's something that emotionally resonates with the buyer or audio fan. For example, simple and unusual marketing claims such as an “electrostatic sound in a box speaker”, “homemade drivers so precise, nothing on the planet can touch them”, etc. Obviously these marketing messages resonate with people who already like the brand or want to believe the marketing. But from an outsider’s perspective, they seem like pure bullsh!t....
Once brand stories get established, they are embellished by audio reviewers. This appeal to authority figures – the omnipotent individual who really knows what REAL MUSIC sounds like - is one of the strongest marketing methods used by successful companies (and dealers) vs. those that are only able to sell a few units a year to their mother, brother, and brother in-law-audiophile. A New York times critic once confessed that a great many people will believe almost anything that anyone tells them if told with certainty and conviction….
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ful-luxury-companies-from-the-less-successful
This is fun...I can go on and on, but need to get some work done right now, to bring in money, and hopefully use some of it to buy gear.
Hi Peter, I am not suggesting it's all Valin. But it's safe to say that Valin's marketing of Magico is unparalleled in the industry. Nothing wrong with that, as it's not illegal, but it has to be pointed out. (Like every one here, I would love to be a fly on the wall when Valin and Wolf converse!) Yet at the same time, Valin has violated and shattered the brand promise of TAS by so much cheerleading of the analytical/ transparency to source Q series. But hey, as long as his needs are met, who cares about anyone else?
Valin's biggest contribution has been top of mind awareness of the Magico brand: tell, tell, and retell the magico brand story in emotionally laden terms. We discussed a lot of this in the luxury thread:
...But assuming the sonic signature of the gear appeals to one’s taste, best brands have a good story to tell that appeals to the individual. By good story, I mean it's something that emotionally resonates with the buyer or audio fan. For example, simple and unusual marketing claims such as an “electrostatic sound in a box speaker”, “homemade drivers so precise, nothing on the planet can touch them”, etc. Obviously these marketing messages resonate with people who already like the brand or want to believe the marketing. But from an outsider’s perspective, they seem like pure bullsh!t....
Once brand stories get established, they are embellished by audio reviewers. This appeal to authority figures – the omnipotent individual who really knows what REAL MUSIC sounds like - is one of the strongest marketing methods used by successful companies (and dealers) vs. those that are only able to sell a few units a year to their mother, brother, and brother in-law-audiophile. A New York times critic once confessed that a great many people will believe almost anything that anyone tells them if told with certainty and conviction….
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ful-luxury-companies-from-the-less-successful
This is fun...I can go on and on, but need to get some work done right now, to bring in money, and hopefully use some of it to buy gear.
If you want a pair of speakers you have to buy something... I've found purchasers are either looking for the best value or the best overall performance and are willing to pay a premium for it. In a thread about Wilson and marketing you have to assume the buyer is looking for the latter, and this is true of anything in the luxury market. So, the brand must be able to convince people they are special and better than their competition, this is mainly done by telling stories about the creator/owner and their amazing technology. Often times having a higher price conveys the product is simply better than the competition. Also, it's super important to keep the brand name in the forefront, there's so much competition it's easy to for folks to forget you exist. For many people the way the speaker sounds isn't the most important factor, especially in other markets where expensive products are often purchased without hearing. So now the story and the industrial design are super-important!
I'm totally impressed by Wilson, they have a great product and are doing an amazing job keeping their brand in the spotlight. They have a great story about the founder and about the product/technology used. As a business it's hard to fault them.
I'm surprised that brands like Magico and Raidho have caught on to the degree they have, they are thought of as on the level with the established brands like Wilson and have done so more quickly that I would have thought possible in this market. I'm not sure this is possible without a very large marketing budget and offering better than average terms to dealers, but I see them as being very successful. It's hard to say inspirational as I'd guess the budget required to accomplish what they have is very high, and the more you have the easier it is to succeed in business. But, they have shown it's possible.
I would say the first line is true for Wilson too. In the UK, if you want a pair of speakers, it is safe to buy a Wilson, because you can easily sell it off. Same with AR. You will hardly lose money, if at all, buying and selling it in the used market, no matter what the premium of this products is. In a way, the premium is charged for that marketing and the ease of service and distribution and awareness that makes these products a safe bet to buy, as you can sell them equally easily. For many people, this resale value is key.
I would say that if you wanted to pay for quality, and were convinced you wanted to pay a premium, the premium could be interpreted as lack of resale value, i.e. money lost.
In Europe, demand for used Wilson's outstrips the offer. I have posted a pair of used Wilson's for sale some years ago at the german audiomarkt site http://www.audio-markt.de/_markt/ and from time to time get requests from people all over the european community asking if I know of anyone selling similar used speakers in my country.
Unfortunately, no one wants the mint Magico Mini II's I am trying to sell ...
In Europe, demand for used Wilson's outstrips the offer. I have posted a pair of used Wilson's for sale some years ago at the german audiomarkt site http://www.audio-markt.de/_markt/ and from time to time get requests from people all over the european community asking if I know of anyone selling similar used speakers in my country.
Unfortunately, no one wants the mint Magico Mini II's I am trying to sell ...
I want them....
But I am trying for find a pair locally
I'm not sure Raidho ever was really that popular - seemed like a flash in the pan. Not sure they even have a dealer in LA.
Every member on audio shark seemed to have a pair... Now audio shark seems to have turned into a dealer site, and they don't sell them...
But valin just gave the d5.1 product of the year award...
Yet reading valin's review, I remember him mentioning that some guys will like that speaker better if they stuff their socks into the ports. I can just imagine a party of middle-aged, obsessive compulsive audiophiles stripping down and listening to sonic differences after stuffing the speaker ports with various items of their clothing.
Every member on audio shark seemed to have a pair... Now audio shark seems to have turned into a dealer site, and they don't sell them...
But valin just gave the d5.1 product of the year award...
Yet reading valin's review, I remember him mentioning that some guys will like that speaker better if they stuff their socks into the ports. I can just imagine a party of middle-aged, obsessive compulsive audiophiles stripping down and listening to sonic differences after stuffing the speaker ports with various items of their clothing.
Valin has been pushing Raidho just like Magico, but Raidho does not seem to be as popular or successful. There is more to it than just Valin's praise. Sound matters, as they say.
I agree with you. Quality matters, assuming one likes the sound signature. If Louis Vuitton luggage fell apart after a trip or two, they wouldn't be as successful as they are.
But the interesting thing here, magico has captured the market position for "the speaker that is best at Sound Reproduction." This positioning implies great engineering.
Wilson, on the other hand, gets to fight it out with everyone else on the Platonic Ideal/ "use your imagination to make it sound real" segment.
And from a magazine business standpoint, tas gets hurt if they only have monotonous coverage of just one brand. Valin can only praise magico so much without boring other readers. It's about entertainment and and stuff of dreams, after all...
As for raidho, their problems with larger speakers are well documented. However, their smaller speakers sound wonderful with girly voices at shows.
Aries Cerat of course! As far as exact models it has yet to be determined. They will be going into room 2 so the Mini II's and a few other choices are on the table. Depending if I can snag one I will pair it up with one of the newer product in the line
Hi Peter, I am not suggesting it's all Valin. But it's safe to say that Valin's marketing of Magico is unparalleled in the industry. Nothing wrong with that, as it's not illegal, but it has to be pointed out. (Like every one here, I would love to be a fly on the wall when Valin and Wolf converse!) Yet at the same time, Valin has violated and shattered the brand promise of TAS by so much cheerleading of the analytical/ transparency to source Q series. But hey, as long as his needs are met, who cares about anyone else?
Valin's biggest contribution has been top of mind awareness of the Magico brand: tell, tell, and retell the magico brand story in emotionally laden terms. We discussed a lot of this in the luxury thread:
...But assuming the sonic signature of the gear appeals to one’s taste, best brands have a good story to tell that appeals to the individual. By good story, I mean it's something that emotionally resonates with the buyer or audio fan. For example, simple and unusual marketing claims such as an “electrostatic sound in a box speaker”, “homemade drivers so precise, nothing on the planet can touch them”, etc. Obviously these marketing messages resonate with people who already like the brand or want to believe the marketing. But from an outsider’s perspective, they seem like pure bullsh!t....
Once brand stories get established, they are embellished by audio reviewers. This appeal to authority figures – the omnipotent individual who really knows what REAL MUSIC sounds like - is one of the strongest marketing methods used by successful companies (and dealers) vs. those that are only able to sell a few units a year to their mother, brother, and brother in-law-audiophile. A New York times critic once confessed that a great many people will believe almost anything that anyone tells them if told with certainty and conviction….
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ful-luxury-companies-from-the-less-successful
This is fun...I can go on and on, but need to get some work done right now, to bring in money, and hopefully use some of it to buy gear.
..in his eqpt breakdown JV lists a pr of M Project speakers. Even at accommodation pricing it's hard to imagine he could afford them. Long term loan? Here are what he lists as his "reference" speakers: Magico M Project, Raidho D-5.1, Raidho D-1, Avantgarde Zero 1, MartinLogan CLX, Magnepan .7, Magnepan 1.7, Magnepan 3.7, Magnepan 20.7...seriously? I want to be an audio journalist..
Perhaps he is just "referring" to them as his personal benchmarks for best performance in their respective classes, and he does not actually own them all or have them on hand for direct comparisons. He has probably lived with each one for quite some time, even beyond when he had them in for review. Just guessing here. I refer to MadFloyd's M Pro when thinking about the lowest distortion, highest resolution speaker that I have heard. When I hear other speakers, I think back on my memories of how those M Pros (in the context of Ian's system) presented the same music for instance. They serve as my benchmark for clear, clean, natural sound from speakers.
The Walker TT seems to be on indefinite loan. He has a few turntables listed as references too.
IMHO it is one problem for the Magico marketing team - low distortion, high resolution is not easy to sell. It can even get a pejorative connection when audiophiles refer to electronics that probably will be used with their speakers. Why having a speaker that is flat to .1dB if the output impedance of the amplifier will create variations of +/- 2dB?
Many loudspeaker manufacturers minimize the subjective differences due to the electronic chain, considering they are minimal and exaggerated by audiophiles. David Wilson even fits his speakers with different ports and damping sets to suit different amplifiers. This type of follow up keeps his loyal fans happy!
Curiously I get much more information concerning Wilson speakers and their policies from my distributor than from the net.
0,1 db ?? haha nobody is gonna achieve that , with amps yes .
Measurement Q 5 tolerance +- 2,5 db its a good response but nothing too special , imo the Q 5 tw can sound a bit hot as it plays at it s max about 5 db louder then the midrange
http://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-q5-loudspeaker-measurements#rbuLMbKEwOqSTspf.97
Ps the in room response is about the same from 300 hz up also + - 2,5 db , a dumb DIY as me achieves at least +- 2 db as you can see on my system page with the same smoothe factor, from about 300 -400 hz up.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?6926-H-J-s-system-!/page16
Measurement Q 5 tolerance +- 2,5 db its a good response but nothing too special , imo the Q 5 tw can sound a bit hot as it plays at it s max about 5 db louder then the midrange
http://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-q5-loudspeaker-measurements#rbuLMbKEwOqSTspf.97
Ps the in room response is about the same from 300 hz up also + - 2,5 db , a dumb DIY as me
achieves at least +- 2 db as you can see on my system page with the same smoothe factor, from about 300 -400 hz up.http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?6926-H-J-s-system-!/page16
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I'm not so sure it is a problem, microstrip. Magico seems to sell quite a few speakers, though who on the outside really knows? I agree that there can be a pejorative connection with high resolution and low distortion, but that is because these phrases can connote a sterile, uninvolving musical experience for some listeners. I happen to like low distortion and high resolution because this is precisely what I hear when listening to live unamplified music. I am always struck by how clear and clean the sound is. So if a system sounds natural, believable, and convincing to me, and the components making up the system have low distortion and high resolution, I am all for it.
Magico promotes being at the cutting edge of technology: custom drivers with new materials, heavy, non resonant cabinets built to unusual standards. You are right that they don't state explicitly the low distortion, high resolution goals, but this idea comes out in the photos, and in interviews with Mr. Wolf and in user reports. These characteristics are associated with the brand. The marketing photos show the speakers, or the frames out of context, isolated in front of screens, as objects. This is in stark contrast to Wilson which usually shows images of their speakers, not in systems but artistically placed in beautiful domestic settings - in the context of their customers' homes.
Wilson seems very effective at promoting that "Live Music" design reference idea with images of concert halls and they have a wonderful series of videos with interviews of musicians talking about the speakers. I don't think that Wilson is losing its marketing edge. I think that others may be catching up a bit.
Wilson also use the image of the speaker for the professionals - see the use of history of the Watt, the permanent reference to Dave Wilson recordings and references to studios using Wilson speakers. Another strong point is the speaker that integrates with your life and homes, as you said - not just with the listening room. Look at the sites and facebook of both companies - if I was buying just from looking there I know which I would pick.
Well said PeterA. And it is beyond just catching up in term of marketing. Magico, Rockport, EA, VS, Genesis etc. speakers owners more and more do not feel they're missing anything. It is a case of Wilson having some real competition.. They had to revamp their line-up because of the inroads from the above brands and truth to be told they're no longer the automatic goto speaker but one of the choices albeit, perhaps, the one that boast the highest resale value. They remain the most recognizable speaker brand in High End Audio...
I don't think so. Just look on-line and see the numbers (In fact, one can argue that Magico used prices are higher). Regardless, most of the comments here are heavily biased. Caesar keeps bashing poor Vain, never once stopping to consider that he matters very little around the world where Magico may be just as popular and maybe even more so than in the US. No one here cares about Raidho, (or Rockport) a brand that valin promote as well. He also ignores the fact that all over the world reviewers are switching to Magico as their reference, some were big Wilson's fan (like MC of HiFi critics). Magico is succeeding because of their superior performance only, nothing else. Not cleaver marketing or bigger discount to dealers (actually, you can get better deals on Wilson), or one reviewer drumbeat, and people are changing sides, and the ones that I know all go the same way (Even the distributor here, who represents both, listen to Magico at his house not Wilson).
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