Magico Ultimate 3

[stereo]

Stereo.

My concern is that designers optimize amplifiers to be operated with average sensitivity around 90 dB - this means that they voice them at some specific average level. When using them with 116 dB/W speakers you will be using them mostly out of the expected optimum zone of power. Did you talk with Magico people about this aspect?

My only very positive experience with high sensitivity speakers was with Avantgarde, and curiously IMHO they only sounded great with their own low power SS amplifier, that was developed specifically for them.

I never heard Avantgarde sounding to my taste. As surprising it can be, I am not really a horn guy. The Ultimate is the first horn I have heard I would take over the best electrodynamic speakers.
The key for the choice of SS amp with a 110-115dB speaker like the Ultimate is to get a amp with a very low gain. You can get the designers of some of the best amps to adjust the gain specifically for this application.
And yes, you are right, on a high sensitivity horn what matters the most is the quality of the first 2-5 watts.

 

[dans6959]

Probably May. The first pair has not been shipped yet, should be shipped end of next month. Design and construction was a lot of work. Bass and Mid-bass drivers had to be redesigned from scratch. Active crossover still needs to be refined.
In my case it is even more complicated because I may choose a different configuration than standard Ultimate:
1) Standard Ultimate
source-1 DAC-1 pre-1 digital XO (ADA)-5 channels of amplification- Ultimate

2) My version
source (Combrio) including digital XO and phase alignment (we are finishing SW design) - 5 DACs - 5 integrated amps (volume piloted by Combrio, with different volume control curves to adjust for different drivers sensitivity) - Ultimate. Of course, all synched with a world clock.
Idea is to test both versions in Magico factory, then ship what works best... both scenarios have different plus and minus. That's why it will take a bit of time

Honestly, I am not in a hurry, listening happily to my Q1.

What about daisy-chaining 5 Devialet 240s together? I know Vivid has done something similar with an active version of their G series speakers.

I live in San Francisco and I'm sure my local Devialet dealer would be more than happy to deliver 5 Devialets to Hayward ;-) Either way I would be happy to pick you up at SFO and drive over to Hayward when you're ready to listen to the Ultimates. Send me a PM and I'll make sure the car is warmed up!

By the way your posts on various forums led me to purchase a Devialet 170 and a pair of Magico S1s so I owe you a debt of gratitude for steering me in the right direction.

 

[Orb]

most horns are in the 97-105dB.
In a full active system like the Ultimate you get 10-15dB more on sensitivity. Which means that the amp needs to be REALLY silent. There are quite a few amps with REAL S/N ration above 120dB, have not found any tube amp.
The fact that a lot of horns are driven by tubes doesn't mean they sound better with tubes, it can be also that triode lovers choose horns as it is the only way to get decent SPL

Yeah good point about most horns.
I must admit I have never seen any SS measured that well when reviewed by either Stereophile or HiFi News, however even combined they have not measured all of the excellent high end products out there.
When you decide on the SS amps, please could you share what they will be as it would be great to add those to the list for anyone considering going high sensitive horn.
And like you my preference would be SS anyway, but lowish powered single ended.

Thanks again for a great thread.
Orb

 

[stereo]

What about daisy-chaining 5 Devialet 240s together? I know Vivid has done something similar with an active version of their G series speakers.

I live in San Francisco and I'm sure my local Devialet dealer would be more than happy to deliver 5 Devialets to Hayward ;-) Either way I would be happy to pick you up at SFO and drive over to Hayward when you're ready to listen to the Ultimates. Send me a PM and I'll make sure the car is warmed up!

By the way your posts on various forums led me to purchase a Devialet 170 and a pair of Magico S1s so I owe you a debt of gratitude for steering me in the right direction.

Thanks for the kind words. happy to hear you like your S1-Devialet combination! Devialet is a very good value for money. Not surprising it works well with Magico: for your information, Devialet is using a pair of Q3 as their reference speaker in their R&D dpt.

 

[stereo]

Yeah good point about most horns.
I must admit I have never seen any SS measured that well when reviewed by either Stereophile or HiFi News, however even combined they have not measured all of the excellent high end products out there.
When you decide on the SS amps, please could you share what they will be as it would be great to add those to the list for anyone considering going high sensitive horn.
And like you my preference would be SS anyway, but lowish powered single ended.

Thanks again for a great thread.
Orb

Most silent SS amp I have ever heard are the Soulution. Real S/N ratio is probably better than 120dB.

 

[microstrip]

What about daisy-chaining 5 Devialet 240s together? I know Vivid has done something similar with an active version of their G series speakers.

Interesting. How did they implement the crossover action? I have learned about a great demo of the TheSonusFaber (Fenice) using six Devialet in daisy chain mono! (the TSF are triwired)

 

[dans6959]

Interesting. How did they implement the crossover action? I have learned about a great demo of the TheSonusFaber (Fenice) using six Devialet in daisy chain mono! (the TSF are triwired)

The Devialet's are highly configureable using their online tool. One option is an active crossover, which takes place in the digital domain. As you might know all analog inputs are converted to digital and then back to analog so everything passes through the digital section. Using the configuration tool you can set the high and low pass filter and the slope. On the Vivids I believe the Devialet replaces the crossover network and the drivers are directly connected to the amp. Here's a picture.



With the new models they have increased the computing power and they have said room correction will eventually happen.

 

[stereo]

Interesting. How did they implement the crossover action? I have learned about a great demo of the TheSonusFaber (Fenice) using six Devialet in daisy chain mono! (the TSF are triwired)

I did discuss in the past with Devialet about the option to use 4 of them to feed the Ultimate. I ended up not pursuing this route because after comparing my Devialet with other (more expensive) SS amps (Dartzeel, Vitus, Soulution), I believe I could get a better sound with a different set up. I am now considering 3 options for amplification (one of them being a custom design), will post more when I have done some testing.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Stereo, I have no affiliation to Trinity, but this seems to be a brand that's getting stellar reviews using excellent use of technology, with minimal flash, and a not totally exhorbitant pricetag. The DAC esp is causing real waves, the pre and phono are highly regarded, and power amps are imminent. There is not a bad word yet re these components. Is there a chance you'll consider them. The design seems to excel at v.low noisefloor, density of tone, and spatial reproduction - surely attributes that would be top of your shopping list.

 

[earlinarizona]

I just thought this table would be interesting for Signal to Noise numbers. Damping numbers between Solution and the tubes is WOW difference, but if you are driving a compression driver
it should make less difference than driving a large cone driver.
Signal To Noise Damping Factor.Higher is better
Solution 501 -120DB >10,000
VTL MB-450 Series III Tube -110DB ?
Solution 711 -108DB >10,000
Lamm ML2.2 Tube -99.5-102DB 9.5
Constellation Hercules Stereo -100DB ?
Lamm ML3 Tube -100-106DB 2.5
Behold -97DB 200-11,200

 

[microstrip]

I just thought this table would be interesting for Signal to Noise numbers. Damping numbers between Solution and the tubes is WOW difference, but if you are driving a compression driver
it should make less difference than driving a large cone driver.
Signal To Noise Damping Factor.Higher is better
Solution 501 -120DB >10,000
VTL MB-450 Series III Tube -110DB ?
Solution 711 -108DB >10,000
Lamm ML2.2 Tube -99.5-102DB 9.5
Constellation Hercules Stereo -100DB ?
Lamm ML3 Tube -100-106DB 2.5
Behold -97DB 200-11,200

Signal to noise-ratios can not be analyzed just dropping figures from specifications. Many manufacturers specify signal to noise ratio at full nominal power at 8 ohm, others at 1W (2.83v over 8 ohm). In order to compare them they must all be specified or scaled to 1W. Also consider that sometimes the specification in the data sheets refer to weighted, other times to non-weighted figures.

 

[stereo]

Signal to noise-ratios can not be analyzed just dropping figures from specifications. Many manufacturers specify signal to noise ratio at full nominal power at 8 ohm, others at 1W (2.83v over 8 ohm). In order to compare them they must all be specified or scaled to 1W. Also consider that sometimes the specification in the data sheets refer to weighted, other times to non-weighted figures.

agree. From my experience, only way to know what is the real noise generated by an amp is to connect it to a compression driver for testing.... there is a lot of bullshit in specs from manufacturers

 

[stereo]

Stereo, I have no affiliation to Trinity, but this seems to be a brand that's getting stellar reviews using excellent use of technology, with minimal flash, and a not totally exhorbitant pricetag. The DAC esp is causing real waves, the pre and phono are highly regarded, and power amps are imminent. There is not a bad word yet re these components. Is there a chance you'll consider them. The design seems to excel at v.low noisefloor, density of tone, and spatial reproduction - surely attributes that would be top of your shopping list.

Not an option- it doesn't have a standard world clock input.
DAC has been pretty much decided: I will most probably use either my PM2s or DCS Vivaldi, both have pros and cons.

 

[spiritofmusic]

That's going to be hellishly expensive option surely? The Vivaldi DAC isn't chump change and the PM2s is discontinued, and rare as hens' teeth (unobtanium pricey?) - and you need 5 of the critters!

 

[stereo]

That's going to be hellishly expensive option surely? The Vivaldi DAC isn't chump change and the PM2s is discontinued, and rare as hens' teeth (unobtanium pricey?) - and you need 5 of the critters!

I have 4 PM2 and can use another DAC for the sub. If I go for Vivaldi, I don't need to buy more than 1 upsampler and one clock

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tell me to mind my own business if you wish, but why would you happen have four PM2c's rather than one? Have you been hoarding them for a rainy day ?! Or did you guess one day that you might need a few? Pretty fortuitous since you need a few of them for your uber setup.

 

[Bruce B]

Tell me to mind my own business if you wish, but why would you happen have four PM2c's rather than one? Have you been hoarding them for a rainy day ?! Or did you guess one day that you might need a few? Pretty fortuitous since you need a few of them for your uber setup.

I guess he has 4 doors that won't stay open!

 

[stereo]

I guess he has 4 doors that won't stay open!

I believe you deserve a nut- I even give you 4

 

[Orb]

Signal to noise-ratios can not be analyzed just dropping figures from specifications. Many manufacturers specify signal to noise ratio at full nominal power at 8 ohm, others at 1W (2.83v over 8 ohm). In order to compare them they must all be specified or scaled to 1W. Also consider that sometimes the specification in the data sheets refer to weighted, other times to non-weighted figures.

And importantly the measurement across the whole FR (say 20-20khz).
Why only accurate stated spec IMO is from such as Stereophile/HiFiNews, and a few others out there that go out of their way to measure review products.
In my experience reading those magazines I am yet to see a product with a truly stunning noise ratio (apart from such as the Devialet), by truly stunning I mean over 110db (nagra is at 105db with their tube amp).
However it is rare for such magazines to review single ended low powered SS amps, but sometimes they do although this means maybe some are being missed.

I appreciate quite a few on here know this (including you Micro and Stereo), but just to add some amps seem to have better signal ratio because they rely on a higher watt output and a selected frequency range, problem is with a very efficient speaker it is academic if the ideal signal ratio required for a specific product is say over 50 watts because one would never utilise this on such a speaker - and why noise ratio needs to be the 1W spec measurement.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Most silent SS amp I have ever heard are the Soulution. Real S/N ratio is probably better than 120dB.

I guess it depends upon the model, sadly HifiNews has only done the digital products, while Stereophile only the 710 amp.

As someone else mentioned Devialet is probably the only one to have noise ratio better than 120db, but then this sacrifices some aspects in terms of sound quality in comparison to a few other excellent high end amps/DACs.
Sorry if I missed it, but I noticed someone asked much earlier what Alon uses/suggests to go with these stunning speakers?

Thanks
Orb