What Cartridge(s) Is Everyone Using

Christian,

I was responding to comments made on this forum regarding TT's at the various Hi-fi shows and their lack of performance mostly due to the complexities involved in setting up a TT. So due to the lack of good demo's, how does one go about selecting or comparing 5k plus cartridges , how are you basing your decision , there are many variables , worst , the industry is so incestuous where rebadging is not unusual from one manufacturer to the next ..

How do you determine good , better, best .....?
One way, which I know Albert Porter has done, is to have multiple arms, with different cartridges, and listen to them. He has compared that Coralstone Christian has, the Lyra Atlas, the Airtight Supreme (I use an earlier version of that cartridge and had a series of the predecessor Lyras as well). I have also had the opportunity to listen to some of these vaunted cartridges in my system, not so I could do A/B comparisons easily (I only have one arm set up), but I could hear a substantial difference in how one over 5k cartridge compared to another in my system. However, even that is not 'projectable' to other's experiences, given the vagaries (both strengths and weaknesses) of my system. But, it can be done.
A. Wayne, if there was a giant killer, I'd love to know about it and I'm not being facetious. I don't like paying this kind of money for a 'needle' either.
 
Ha aahh :)

I'm searching too whart , its difficult without a ton of cartridge rolling and while i will plunk down 3k for tires on a race weekend , a 5K cartridge is not even on my radar ...:)

The first thing we have to do , is define and recognize this Giant......
 
I am curious too which tts weren't performing well at shows. I find that the exception (usually if broken or damaged in shipping) not the rule.

Just read thru the comments on the WWW, not reviewers , paying public , most were not impressed with the hi $$$ TT's , figuring inadequate setup, etc ..

Imo anything over 10K better sound special , not OK .....
 
Just read thru the comments on the WWW, not reviewers , paying public , most were not impressed with the hi $$$ TT's , figuring inadequate setup, etc ..

Imo anything over 10K better sound special , not OK .....

Then how does one tell that other than obvious mistracking that it's the turntable at fault and not the rest of the system at a show? Hell I've even heard distortion that thought was cartridge mistracking and it turned out to be a bad tube.
 
Then how does one tell that other than obvious mistracking that it's the turntable at fault and not the rest of the system at a show? Hell I've even heard distortion that thought was cartridge mistracking and it turned out to be a bad tube.

Well, it really doesn't matter if one can't tell between a bad tube, mistracking or a number of issues at these particular shows ... since the general public assumes a vendors proper setup ... so they'll blame the system or parts of the system that visually are more obviously involved ... like the turntable or speakers.

(pity the speaker ... the general public blames 'em for nearly everything)

Two years ago I went to a show in which the RFI was so bad that particular day, many vendors turned the turntables into static displays and adopted digital.

tb1
 
Lol ...:)

Precisely correct , if the pro's cant get 500k worth of hi-fi to sound right , then What ...!
Anyway i need the identify of this giant to be slain ...

:)
 
Lol ...:)

Precisely correct , if the pro's cant get 500k worth of hi-fi to sound right , then What ...!
Anyway i need the identify of this giant to be slain ...

:)
A Wayne: playing records is wonderful, but hardly fail-safe. It sounds like you want to slay phonorecords as a medium of choice. But, to the extent you are a car guy (something I drew from your statement about spending money on tires for a race day), it's like complaining that your pre-war Alfa or Bugatti isn't as reliable as your Mazda or Subaru as a grocery getter. All true, but I know which one I'd rather be driving for sport. If you get my drift. :)
 
A Wayne: playing records is wonderful, but hardly fail-safe. It sounds like you want to slay phonorecords as a medium of choice. But, to the extent you are a car guy (something I drew from your statement about spending money on tires for a race day), it's like complaining that your pre-war Alfa or Bugatti isn't as reliable as your Mazda or Subaru as a grocery getter. All true, but I know which one I'd rather be driving for sport. If you get my drift. :)


Not anti-analog , i cover all medium and for a car analogy , its getting the setup wrong everytime we change tracks . I can say without prejudice, anyone going to an hi-fi show and getting their setup so hopelessly wrong they cannot do a demo is clueless beyond measure ...

And

I'm as much a hi-fi guy as a car guy , actually at everything i do , i used to race bicycles too , bikes some what ( not enuff talent) and designed audio systems for decades ( in a past life) , never got a show setup wrong as to park it ...

So i return to my original premise , how good is a 50K analog rig , afterall you have to voice them in the same as any, doing so shifts the curve, so tell me gents, the name of this giant cartridge, i would like to know if the emperor is wearing ....

Maybe a giant killa lurks ..... :)
 
Not anti-analog , i cover all medium and for a car analogy , its getting the setup wrong everytime we change tracks . I can say without prejudice, anyone going to an hi-fi show and getting their setup so hopelessly wrong they cannot do a demo is clueless beyond measure ...

I'm as much a hi-fi guy as a car guy , actually at everything i do , i used to race bicycles too , bikes some what ( not enuff talent) and designed audio systems for decades ( in a past life) , never got a show setup wrong as to park it ...

So i return to my original premise , how good is a 50K analog rig , afterall you have to voice them in the same as any, doing so shifts the curve, so tell me gents, the name of this giant cartridge, i would like to know if this emperor is wearing ....

:)
You live near NY? I've got a pretty good analog rig. I'm sure it's not the best one on the board, but it sounds very, very good and you are welcome to come hear it. As to price, not sure what you are counting in the 'rig,' whether it includes the phono stage, if it does then I guess mine costs that....
And, I'm not trying to say mine's bigger or better than anything. It just sounds good.
 
Not anti-analog , i cover all medium and for a car analogy , its getting the setup wrong everytime we change tracks . I can say without prejudice, anyone going to an hi-fi show and getting their setup so hopelessly wrong they cannot do a demo is clueless beyond measure ...

And

I'm as much a hi-fi guy as a car guy , actually at everything i do , i used to race bicycles too , bikes some what ( not enuff talent) and designed audio systems for decades ( in a past life) , never got a show setup wrong as to park it ...

So i return to my original premise , how good is a 50K analog rig , afterall you have to voice them in the same as any, doing so shifts the curve, so tell me gents, the name of this giant cartridge, i would like to know if the emperor is wearing ....

Maybe a giant killa lurks ..... :)

I would agree that set up is critical and yes, a poorly set up quality/expensive analog rig may well sound worse than a well dialed in less inexpensive system.

One of the sequela of the initial enthusiasm for CD was that we lost a whole generation of folks who were proficient in set up and as a result, it has become a bit of a lost art. I have a friend who offers analog set up services and he regales me with stories of extremely expensive systems set up so poorly that he thought it was intentional. He also bemoans the fact that owners of these rigs show little interest in learning the skill when he does their set ups.

I would give anlalog exhibitors at shows a bit of break. Set up is an iterative process typically requiring multiple listening sessions and that's in a system/room you are familiar with. This is hardly the case under show conditions.

Obviously an analog system is just that; a system. So synergy certainly plays a role. IMO, the role/quality of the tonearm is relatively underestimated and resources spent on a better tonearm may yield more sonic fruit than upgrading cartridges.

And yes, a 50k rig should sound damn good!
 
Lol ...:)

Precisely correct , if the pro's cant get 500k worth of hi-fi to sound right , then What ...!
Anyway i need the identify of this giant to be slain ...

:)


When I go to these shows, I never expect to hear a system like mine. I think that would be unrealistic.

If one considers all the difficulties in properly setting up a system in a house or show demo room with so much time on your hands to get it just right, one should also understand how much harder it is to set up a room or display at some foreign venue with very limited time.

I generally do the opposite to most at these shows. Rooms with big displays and speakers generally don't interest me, they generally sound too poor and too loud, mostly at the same time!!! Not my idea of hi-end. However, these rooms may sound compromised, but they still provide a great service ... in that they act as magnets to most 'philes who are attracted by such events. This allows me to visit the smaller rooms without nearly as much "audiophile" congestion. It's in these smaller rooms that I've heard some very impressive setups, but that's more the exception than the rule.

tb1
 
You live near NY? I've got a pretty good analog rig. I'm sure it's not the best one on the board, but it sounds very, very good and you are welcome to come hear it. As to price, not sure what you are counting in the 'rig,' whether it includes the phono stage, if it does then I guess mine costs that....
And, I'm not trying to say mine's bigger or better than anything. It just sounds good.



I believe most here have very good hi-fi systems, so i have no reason to doubt your analog setup, My concern was to see how much of a real difference is there between a 1K cartridge and their 5K-10K counterparts, is it night and day? subtle? who is the current king dragon, how is the King dragon determined, since each cartridge has a sweet spot as to arm, table , cables , Pre-pre, Pre, setup ( mechanical) ..

Is the difference cartridge or setup ....?

It would be interesting to see if by voicing, we are able get similar results from a lesser priced unit, a giant killa so to speak ....
 
Is the difference cartridge or setup ....?

Both, but remember, no degree of setup can transform a cartridge into something it's not, therefore proper setup does nothing more than justify the potential of the any cart.

tb1
 
I would give anlalog exhibitors at shows a bit of break. Set up is an iterative process typically requiring multiple listening sessions and that's in a system/room you are familiar with. This is hardly the case under show conditions.

Obviously an analog system is just that; a system. So synergy certainly plays a role. IMO, the role/quality of the tonearm is relatively underestimated and resources spent on a better tonearm may yield more sonic fruit than upgrading cartridges.

And yes, a 50k rig should sound damn good!

I don't , it's not that difficult , we did it for years, as others , audio shows are nothing new ..... :)

When I go to these shows, I never expect to hear a system like mine. I think that would be unrealistic.

Well if you happen to have a mega million dollar system i would agree ! looking for intimacy, agree ! A knock your socks off reference system over 500K , I disagree...:)

If one considers all the difficulties in properly setting up a system in a house or show demo room with so much time on your hands to get it just right, one should also understand how much harder it is to set up a room or display at some foreign venue with very limited time.


Disagree, it's not difficult, these systems are being setup by the those in the know, it's not MEP, pulling his Hi-Fi system out of his house, to have a good weekend with the boys ...:)

(no offense intended MEP .. :) )

Many moons ago, when Fred Flinstone Hi-FI was around :) after signing up , you knew your room , size , etc, you knew what you were going to use , if room sharing , you would get all items together months before and work on a setup , cables , everything , we knew what we would have for sound before we made one step thru the door, everything , room treatments , power cords , everything ...

The only unknown is the power source, you can and should pay for more if possible, work on having no cock-up's ....!!!

It's not difficult, there is no excuse for a bad presentation, it will not be the best of the best presentation but in no way should it be a bad presentation. You get in the room , set the biatch up , go thru a 100 different selections , find 10 -20 that just rocks and stick with it , tell all requesting to play their recordings the same story, if you give one, You have to give all, Sorry ....!!!!!

Feel free for an in home/ Dealer demo ...... :)

All you need is some audio nutter ( you know them) with some weird recording from their days with hookers and blow, to ruin a whole days work..:)



I generally do the opposite to most at these shows. Rooms with big displays and speakers generally don't interest me, they generally sound too poor and too loud, mostly at the same time!!! Not my idea of hi-end. However, these rooms may sound compromised, but they still provide a great service ... in that they act as magnets to most 'philes who are attracted by such events. This allows me to visit the smaller rooms without nearly as much "audiophile" congestion. It's in these smaller rooms that I've heard some very impressive setups, but that's more the exception than the rule.
tb1

The reason for that is the smaller rooms are being managed by those who have taken the care to get good sound, they have to !

The big rooms are for the big budget PR types, sound is irrelevant, it's hand shake, cut deals, convince your customer this is the best Dung Heeevar. No serious buyer venturing in , would be swayed by a bad demo, from such GIANTS, they will arrange at their convenience with their dealer(s) for a more Intimate encounter , done deal, he's with the big bwoys ... :)
 
Both, but remember, no degree of setup can transform a cartridge into something it's not, therefore proper setup does nothing more than justify the potential of the any cart.

tb1

True, somewhat, by altering input impedance , using copper or silver wiring , you can voice in and produce a symmetry that would produce excellent results. Poor tracking is an issue not easily overcome, this is where i would expect to see the biggest difference , between budget and mega dollar units ......
 
Well if you happen to have a mega million dollar system i would agree ! looking for intimacy, agree ! A knock your socks off reference system over 500K , I disagree...:)

Not even close to a mega-buck system, but it's very good. Actually, my system cannot be judged by component cost alone. And it certainly cannot be sonically judged on it's looks. It sounds the way it does based on years of refinement.

Disagree, it's not difficult, these systems are being setup by the those in the know, it's not MEP, pulling his Hi-Fi system out of his house, to have a good weekend with the boys ...:)

Well, we will have to agree to disagree here ... because I consider the refinement I put into my own system/room to suit my personal sonic needs was a relatively difficult journey with many turns. Again, this is where "expectations" come into play, yours may in fact be very different to mine.

tb1
 
Well, we will have to agree to disagree here ... because I consider the refinement I put into my own system/room to suit my personal sonic needs was a relatively difficult journey with many turns. Again, this is where "expectations" come into play, yours may in fact be very different to mine.

tb1

See your quote and raise .... :)

looking for intimacy, agree ! ...:)

No show setup will match the intimacy you receive from your system ...does'nt mean it won't surpass it in sonics ....
 
-- You guys know Michael Fremer?

Who is going to replace him, take over, when he's gone, twenty to thirty years from now?

Where will we read and learn on $150,000+ turntables (without tonearm and cartridge and motor),
and on $25,000+ cartridges cut-made by some Japanese king guru of the Himalayas? :b
 
No show setup will match the intimacy you receive from your system ...does'nt mean it won't surpass it in sonics ....

Maybe I do prefer intimacy over sonics ... I don't know, nor do I care ... I've always figured the two were very much related.

I remember when people told me that SACD would surpass the "sonics" of my CDP, while competing favorably with my TT. Even the reviewers claimed that this SACD player (Sony sa777es) was a "game changer" ... and yet ... just the opposite happened during the many showdowns within not only my system, but a variety of other audiophile systems and digital components.

SACD replay improved well past those original and very much over-hyped and overrated Sony's ... yet it never did get a foothold within my immediate area, the audiophile community here is very much pro analog and remains that way to this day.

Perhaps we don't appreciate digital "sonics" like others?

tb1
 

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