Should I scratch that itch and switch from SS to Valves !

[rgmd11]

Hello, and wishing everyone yuletide blessings

For quite some time I have pondered making a move to a Valve intergrated , presently my Gryphon Atilla is getting a bit long in the tooth, thought about upgrading to the newer Diablo 333, or the 120 (is there a new 120 replacement on the horizon !, I suspect there is).

However, I have long had a really strong urge and inkling to try a Valve amp, asking for constructive advice on the following amps that I have researched recently, my present speakers are 4 ohm and a decent 89db , (likely changing to either Diablo Evo or TAD ME1 in the near future and both are 4 ohm as well), would prefer to have the option of a built in headphone amp, though not crucial, slightly worried about only having 9 or 10 watts with a 300B SET amp, though there are a few options available with 4 x 300b tubes in parallel increasing to a respectable 20w which will easily suffice as my modestly sized though treated room is only 13' x 9'6".

I listen to literally all genres of music, though predominately 70's rock which of course were recorded with analog equipment and with mostly valve guitar amps, and i do love a Lesley cabinet whirling in conjunction with a Hammond organ, bliss....and never mind a well miked up drum kit, literally looking for organic analog lushness but needs to have absolute and precise slam in the lower end with sweet highs and of course maybe more importantly not withstanding an outstanding mid range.

Below are the options that I have narrowed down to, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, especially regarding actual experience and use, would prefer to not outlay more than $15k though can push to $20k if warranted.

Thanking you all, much appreciated

1.CARY SLI-80HS CLASS A 40W / CLASS AB 80W KT88

(can upgrade components to Mundorf SilverGold Caps, Hexfreds, Greyhill Switch, WBT Speaker Binding Posts)

$4,495 (BASIC)

SLI-80HS Integrated Amplifier | Cary Audio

caryaudio.com

2. CARY CAD 300 SEI CLASS A 15W, 300B

(can upgrade components Mundorf SilverGold Caps, Jensen Caps, Hexfreds, Greyhill Switch, WBT Speaker Binding Posts, Kimber Kable) + Headphone output

$3900 (BASIC)

CAD-300SEI Integrated Amplifier | Cary Audio

caryaudio.com

3. WESTERN ELECTRIC 91E CLASS A 20W, 300B

Option to have 4, 8 or 16 ohm easy change modular transformers…and of course they were the inventors of the 300B tube in the late 1930’s $14.995

https://www.westernelectric.com/91e


4. TRIODE EVOLUTION 300 30th Anniversary CLASS A 12W 300B $20.000
https://triode.eu/products/


5. VAC SIGMA 170i SE CLASS A 85W KT88

Special edition with upgraded parts (unspecified), watched an interview with Kevin Hayes recently, strikes me as super knowledgable and the real deal​

Sigma 170i

6. NAT SINGLE EVO CLASS A CLASS A GM70 (!)

Option for headphone , they make the Magma Evo One which have the biggest tubes I have ever seen, massive​

www.nataudio.com/products/vacuum-integrated-tube-amplifier/single-evo.html​

7. PHASEMATION SA 1500 CLASS A 9W 300B

A brand I have never come across​

https://www.phasemation.com/product/sa-1500.html

 

[Al M.]

Your Focal Electra 1008 BE seem to be moderately difficult load at 8 Ohm nominal impedance but 3.9 Ohm minimum impedance (phase angle behavior unknown) and a sensitivity of 89 dB:

Focal Electra 1008 Be - Dark Walnut w/Focal Stands - Beryllium Tweeters

The Focal Electra 1008 Be utilizes one of our favorite tweeters made of actual *beryllium* - also found in the crazy expensive top-of-the-line speakers from Focal. Meant for a mid to small size room, the 1008 Be is a superb performer and hard to beat at any price. We've never seen this...

skyfiaudio.com

I would stay away from any amplification of < 50 W/ch.

Unless you listen at very low SPL.

 

[Al M.]

The Focal Diablo Evo and TAD ME1 which you envision as future speakers:

The Diablo Evo seems a similar load, the TAD speaker somewhat more difficult given its sensitivity at a similar minimum impedance:

TAD Micro Evolution One loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the TAD Micro Evolution One's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield responses. My estimate of the TAD's sensitivity was 86.2dB(B)/2.83V/m, slightly...

www.stereophile.com

 

[rgmd11]

Your Focal Electra 1008 BE seem to be moderately difficult load at 8 Ohm nominal impedance but 3.9 Ohm minimum impedance (phase angle behavior unknown) and a sensitivity of 89 dB:

Focal Electra 1008 Be - Dark Walnut w/Focal Stands - Beryllium Tweeters

The Focal Electra 1008 Be utilizes one of our favorite tweeters made of actual *beryllium* - also found in the crazy expensive top-of-the-line speakers from Focal. Meant for a mid to small size room, the 1008 Be is a superb performer and hard to beat at any price. We've never seen this...

skyfiaudio.com

I would stay away from any amplification of < 50 W/ch.

Unless you listen at very low SPL.

Hello AI M,

Thanks for the quick reply

"I would stay away from any amplification of < 50 W/ch.", please elaborate !, less than 50w !, if so, sorry I disagree...

In my listening room I can go to a fairly loud 80db without losing definition and becoming fatiguing on certain material, of course this can also depend on the original recording as there is a vast difference in recordings and mastering, from being sublime to literally abysmal

Cheers

 

[jccart]

have you listened to a higher end valve amp ? im asking because I havnt and ive always wanted to but id probly have to buy one to be able to listen to it and they're a lot of money to risk . how do the high end ones perform regarding background noise ? are they comparable to good ss or is it a case of happily sacrificing this for what they do do better ?

 

[rgmd11]

He

have you listened to a higher end valve amp ? im asking because I havnt and ive always wanted to but id probly have to buy one to be able to listen to it and they're a lot of money to risk . how do the high end ones perform regarding background noise ? are they comparable to good ss or is it a case of happily sacrificing this for what they do do better ?

Hello jccart

In my own system !, "never", but at my local dealer over the years, an emphatic yes, Ayon, Vac, Kondo amongst others

 

[Al M.]

Hello AI M,

Thanks for the quick reply

"I would stay away from any amplification of < 50 W/ch.", please elaborate !, less than 50w !, if so, sorry I disagree...

In my listening room I can go to a fairly loud 80db without losing definition and becoming fatiguing on certain material, of course this can also depend on the original recording as there is a vast difference in recordings and mastering, from being sublime to literally abysmal

Cheers

You're welcome. Ok, it seems you do need a bit more power (50 W, preferably more), as I suggested.

I don't care if you disagree, you don't want to regret having too little power.

 

[Al M.]

have you listened to a higher end valve amp ? im asking because I havnt and ive always wanted to but id probly have to buy one to be able to listen to it and they're a lot of money to risk . how do the high end ones perform regarding background noise ? are they comparable to good ss or is it a case of happily sacrificing this for what they do do better ?

Good tube amps are silent, no background noise. Mine is too (Octave RE320).

 

[rgmd11]

You're welcome. Ok, it seems you do need a bit more power (50 W, preferably more), as I suggested.

I don't care if you disagree, you don't want to regret having too little power.

Not looking for an argument, but I don't see your logic, Phasemation SA-1500 which only outputs 9w driving B&W 801 D4 speakers which are a nominal 8 ohm load with impedance dip down to 3.9 ohms and 90db

This is in the Phasemation demo room in Japan.

PHASEMATION SA-1500 Single Ended 300B Röhrenvollverstärker - AXISS Europe GmbH

Allerbeste Audio-Komponenten für HiFi Enthusiasten

axiss-europe.de

 

[Al M.]

Not looking for an argument, but I don't see your logic, Phasemation SA-1500 which only outputs 9w driving B&W 801 D4 speakers which are a nominal 8 ohm load with impedance dip down to 3.9 ohms and 90db

This is in the Phasemation demo room in Japan.

PHASEMATION SA-1500 Single Ended 300B Röhrenvollverstärker - AXISS Europe GmbH

Allerbeste Audio-Komponenten für HiFi Enthusiasten

axiss-europe.de

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Try it, you will be disappointed and you will regret your purchase.

 

[jccart]

thats really good to hear thankyou and a bit surprising . and they bring a warm pleasent sort of a sound essentially ?from the elevated h2?. im thinking of a valve pre im quite attached to my ss power amps .

Good tube amps are silent, no background noise. Mine is too (Octave RE320)

 

[rgmd11]

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Try it, you will be disappointed and you will regret your purchase.

Buy what !, are you referring to the Phasemation SA-1500 ! , if so, are you discounting that a Japanese company that actually designs and manufactures tube amps might perhaps know more than you do as a consumer!.

Please excuse me, but you seem slightly antagonistic.

Cheers.

 

[oldvinyl]

Hello, and wishing everyone yuletide blessings

For quite some time I have pondered making a move to a Valve intergrated , presently my Gryphon Atilla is getting a bit long in the tooth, thought about upgrading to the newer Diablo 333, or the 120 (is there a new 120 replacement on the horizon !, I suspect there is).

However, I have long had a really strong urge and inkling to try a Valve amp, asking for constructive advice on the following amps that I have researched recently, my present speakers are 4 ohm and a decent 89db , (likely changing to either Diablo Evo or TAD ME1 in the near future and both are 4 ohm as well), would prefer to have the option of a built in headphone amp, though not crucial, slightly worried about only having 9 or 10 watts with a 300B SET amp, though there are a few options available with 4 x 300b tubes in parallel increasing to a respectable 20w which will easily suffice as my modestly sized though treated room is only 13' x 9'6".

I listen to literally all genres of music, though predominately 70's rock which of course were recorded with analog equipment and with mostly valve guitar amps, and i do love a Lesley cabinet whirling in conjunction with a Hammond organ, bliss....and never mind a well miked up drum kit, literally looking for organic analog lushness but needs to have absolute and precise slam in the lower end with sweet highs and of course maybe more importantly not withstanding an outstanding mid range.

Below are the options that I have narrowed down to, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, especially regarding actual experience and use, would prefer to not outlay more than $15k though can push to $20k if warranted.

Thanking you all, much appreciated

1.CARY SLI-80HS CLASS A 40W / CLASS AB 80W KT88

(can upgrade components to Mundorf SilverGold Caps, Hexfreds, Greyhill Switch, WBT Speaker Binding Posts)

$4,495 (BASIC)

SLI-80HS Integrated Amplifier | Cary Audio

caryaudio.com

2. CARY CAD 300 SEI CLASS A 15W, 300B

(can upgrade components Mundorf SilverGold Caps, Jensen Caps, Hexfreds, Greyhill Switch, WBT Speaker Binding Posts, Kimber Kable) + Headphone output

$3900 (BASIC)

CAD-300SEI Integrated Amplifier | Cary Audio

caryaudio.com

3. WESTERN ELECTRIC 91E CLASS A 20W, 300B

Option to have 4, 8 or 16 ohm easy change modular transformers…and of course they were the inventors of the 300B tube in the late 1930’s $14.995

https://www.westernelectric.com/91e


4. TRIODE EVOLUTION 300 30th Anniversary CLASS A 12W 300B $20.000
https://triode.eu/products/


5. VAC SIGMA 170i SE CLASS A 85W KT88

Special edition with upgraded parts (unspecified), watched an interview with Kevin Hayes recently, strikes me as super knowledgable and the real deal​

Sigma 170i

6. NAT SINGLE EVO CLASS A CLASS A GM70 (!)

Option for headphone , they make the Magma Evo One which have the biggest tubes I have ever seen, massive​

www.nataudio.com/products/vacuum-integrated-tube-amplifier/single-evo.html​

7. PHASEMATION SA 1500 CLASS A 9W 300B

A brand I have never come across​

https://www.phasemation.com/product/sa-1500.html

Have you considered the Cary 211 FE amps? Rectifiers and capacitors can be upgraded. They are basically two 805 amps in push pull configuration. I have had a pair for over 20 years and love them.

I use the Cary 300 SEI in my office with small speakers and headphones.

 

[Al M.]

Buy what !, are you referring to the Phasemation SA-1500 ! , if so, are you discounting that a Japanese company that actually designs and manufactures tube amps might perhaps know more than you do as a consumer!.

Please excuse me, but you seem slightly antagonistic.

Cheers.

I am not antagonistic, I write my replies to you with the best intentions.

I just want to prevent you from making a big mistake. You can thank me later.

If you buy a low-powered amp and you are disappointed, I don't want to have to say "I told you so".

 

[Al M.]

Have you considered the Cary 211 FE amps? Rectifiers and capacitors can be upgraded. They are basically two 805 amps in push pull configuration. I have had a pair for over 20 years and love them.

I use the Cary 300 SEI in my office with small speakers and headphones.

The specifications of those amps look much better:

Up to 150 watts class B
110 Watts, Class A/B
70 Watts, Class A

CAD-211FE | Vacuum Tube Monoblock Power Amplifier (pair)

Experience the ultimate expression of audio artistry with the mono-block CAD-211FE—an amplifier that defines the standard for reference-grade performance. Crafted as a fully balanced reference design, the CAD-211FE delivers a linear sound profile, from prodigious bass to natural mid-range and...

carydirect.com

 

[rgmd11]

Have you considered the Cary 211 FE amps? Rectifiers and capacitors can be upgraded. They are basically two 805 amps in push pull configuration. I have had a pair for over 20 years and love them.

I use the Cary 300 SEI in my office with small speakers and headphones.

Oldvinyl

Thanks for the recommendation, $14k presently , throw in a Pre-amp and I rather suspect a very decent set up .....

I am not antagonistic, I write my replies to you with the best intentions.

I just want to prevent you from making a big mistake. You can thank me later.

If you buy a low-powered amp and you are disappointed, I don't want to have to say "I toloughd you so".

The specifications of those amps look much better:

Up to 150 watts class B
110 Watts, Class A/B
70 Watts, Class A

CAD-211FE | Vacuum Tube Monoblock Power Amplifier (pair)

Experience the ultimate expression of audio artistry with the mono-block CAD-211FE—an amplifier that defines the standard for reference-grade performance. Crafted as a fully balanced reference design, the CAD-211FE delivers a linear sound profile, from prodigious bass to natural mid-range and...

carydirect.com

Hey AI M

Fair point, at home in Brazil presently and difficult for dealer demo's here, however upcoming trip to Europe next month, will try and line up some demo's

Cheers

 

[unboxed]

I had a VAC Sigma 170i (standard version) on Sound Labs that have exceptionally high impedance at low frequencies. I was so impressed I jumped down the rabbit hole. I now have a VAC Master preamp and Essence 80 iQ monoblocs on the same speakers. The monoblocs are each 85wpc with a pair of KT88s same as the Sigma integrated. If I was doing a compact system, I would buy the 170i all over again.

 

[Al M.]

Hey AI M

Fair point, at home in Brazil presently and difficult for dealer demo's here, however upcoming trip to Europe next month, will try and line up some demo's

Cheers

Sounds great! Then you can test things for yourself. All the best with the demos!

 

[213Cobra]

I don't recommend most of the amps on the OP short list, for the combination of an 89dB/W/m speaker and his stated criteria for music satisfaction:

"...I listen to literally all genres of music, though predominately 70's rock which of course were recorded with analog equipment and with mostly valve guitar amps, and i do love a Lesley cabinet whirling in conjunction with a Hammond organ, bliss....and never mind a well miked up drum kit, literally looking for organic analog lushness but needs to have absolute and precise slam in the lower end with sweet highs and of course maybe more importantly not withstanding an outstanding mid range...."

To accomplish the stated satisfaction criteria, the system will need more available energy than 9-20W from 300B amps. I discount all the KT88 options, but that's because by far my least favorite tube amps are ganged KT88 output designs. So, of the amps on that list, I think the NAT GM70 is the most musically tenable, and it's capable of quality bass and some slam.

However, it's worth considering Linear Tube Audio, with the David Berning ZOTL tube amp architecture. The Z-40+ integrated amp delivers 51W/ch into 4 ohms, has some headroom, and uses EL34 or KT77 output tubes. Lots of tube-rolling choice there.

Z40+ Integrated Amplifier - Vacuum Tube Integrated Amp by Linear Tube Audio

Our most powerful amp, which can power almost any speaker you throw at it, combined with a Berning-designed preamp and Fern & Roby case.

www.lineartubeaudio.com

It's worth phoning LTA to discuss the finer points of your satisfaction criteria to get their view which tubes to stuff it with. LTA has a 14 days return policy, sell direct, any service you might need is quick, and they have offer upgrades over time.

A lower power 300B amp will certainly drive sound out of 89dB/W/m speakers, and of course doubling power only gains an additional 3dB of potential loudness. But the issue with too little power is that the sense of dynamic headroom on transient peaks is diminished, and outside of obvious clipping, it's not obvious until you hear an equal-SQ amp of more power in place of the 300B. My speakers are 101dB/W/m, so I can use a 9W 300B amp if I want in almost any domestic room. I use 52W triode monoblocks, however. At 89dB, as has been suggested, I think that relative to the stated satisfaction criteria, disappointment via the 300B route is a real risk, but the stated room dimensions do make it conceivable to be happy with less power than I am recommending.

Phil

 

[morricab]

Hello, and wishing everyone yuletide blessings

For quite some time I have pondered making a move to a Valve intergrated , presently my Gryphon Atilla is getting a bit long in the tooth, thought about upgrading to the newer Diablo 333, or the 120 (is there a new 120 replacement on the horizon !, I suspect there is).

However, I have long had a really strong urge and inkling to try a Valve amp, asking for constructive advice on the following amps that I have researched recently, my present speakers are 4 ohm and a decent 89db , (likely changing to either Diablo Evo or TAD ME1 in the near future and both are 4 ohm as well), would prefer to have the option of a built in headphone amp, though not crucial, slightly worried about only having 9 or 10 watts with a 300B SET amp, though there are a few options available with 4 x 300b tubes in parallel increasing to a respectable 20w which will easily suffice as my modestly sized though treated room is only 13' x 9'6".

I listen to literally all genres of music, though predominately 70's rock which of course were recorded with analog equipment and with mostly valve guitar amps, and i do love a Lesley cabinet whirling in conjunction with a Hammond organ, bliss....and never mind a well miked up drum kit, literally looking for organic analog lushness but needs to have absolute and precise slam in the lower end with sweet highs and of course maybe more importantly not withstanding an outstanding mid range.

Below are the options that I have narrowed down to, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, especially regarding actual experience and use, would prefer to not outlay more than $15k though can push to $20k if warranted.

Thanking you all, much appreciated

1.CARY SLI-80HS CLASS A 40W / CLASS AB 80W KT88

(can upgrade components to Mundorf SilverGold Caps, Hexfreds, Greyhill Switch, WBT Speaker Binding Posts)

$4,495 (BASIC)

SLI-80HS Integrated Amplifier | Cary Audio

caryaudio.com

2. CARY CAD 300 SEI CLASS A 15W, 300B

(can upgrade components Mundorf SilverGold Caps, Jensen Caps, Hexfreds, Greyhill Switch, WBT Speaker Binding Posts, Kimber Kable) + Headphone output

$3900 (BASIC)

CAD-300SEI Integrated Amplifier | Cary Audio

caryaudio.com

3. WESTERN ELECTRIC 91E CLASS A 20W, 300B

Option to have 4, 8 or 16 ohm easy change modular transformers…and of course they were the inventors of the 300B tube in the late 1930’s $14.995

https://www.westernelectric.com/91e


4. TRIODE EVOLUTION 300 30th Anniversary CLASS A 12W 300B $20.000
https://triode.eu/products/


5. VAC SIGMA 170i SE CLASS A 85W KT88

Special edition with upgraded parts (unspecified), watched an interview with Kevin Hayes recently, strikes me as super knowledgable and the real deal​

Sigma 170i

6. NAT SINGLE EVO CLASS A CLASS A GM70 (!)

Option for headphone , they make the Magma Evo One which have the biggest tubes I have ever seen, massive​

www.nataudio.com/products/vacuum-integrated-tube-amplifier/single-evo.html​

7. PHASEMATION SA 1500 CLASS A 9W 300B

A brand I have never come across​

https://www.phasemation.com/product/sa-1500.html

Of those listed, the NAT is the way to go. Their amps sound very good and have lots of grunt as well.