THE HIFI FIVE ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION STREAMING LIVE ON YOUTUBE PREMIERING IN OCTOBER!

[treitz3]

We all can see spec sheets and for the most part they are almost all the same in things like frequency response and distortion yet we all LISTEN and find there are dramatically different results so why is this not measurable?

My theory is that they aren't measuring the things they don't know to measure yet.

The measurement only stuff is for me insulting and just wrong.

Agreed. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but that is no substitute for what we actually perceive.

Tom

 

[microstrip]

My theory is that they aren't measuring the things they don't know to measure yet.

Who are the "they" you are addressing? Unfortunately this interesting subject is always addressed superficially, propagating myths and outdated information.

Agreed. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but that is no substitute for what we actually perceive.

Tom

Surely. For many reasons, one of them is that science can't predict chaotic individual phenomena. Measurements are not supposed to replace listening, just to complement it and help achieving quality listening experiences.

 

[wil]

Hearsay to you, horses mouth to me. I can't see why a friend would make up stories and lie about his day at work. But who cares right. As long as pharma is there to save you. The US is sickly as we don't eat well, work out, or take any responsibility for our lifestyle and actions. Most people have to really on the dirty industry to save them.
Oddly I was having coffee with another individual 2 days ago and he told me how his neuro surgeon told him he was his last patient. The surgeon was so fed up with the medical establishment placing profits above patients. He had enough and was getting out. I hear a lot of Horse speak. If you are open and listen, you will too.

I believe there is a lot of truth here. In many ways, our healthcare system is pretty pathetic. If you don’t take personal responsibility for your health, or happen to be blessed with extraordinary genetic resilience, you’re going to be in really bad shape.

And the parallels between the audio industry, or any for-profit industry, and the Pharma industry are evident. Just look at the incessant advertisements on TV for the latest drugs they’re selling. Sell, sell, sell. There is a lot of money at stake and it often appears evident to me that health is not the primary motivating force.

(this is not to ignore the many valuable drugs the industry provides, and the many good people who work there.)

And back to the audio industry, where the stakes are much lower, if the consumer doesn’t take responsibility for discerning the difference between the latest magic box and more legitimate products, then they will suffer the consequences.

 

[treitz3]

Who are the "they" you are addressing?

Those doing the measuring.

Tom

 

[Kbh57]

I believe there is a lot of truth here. In many ways, our healthcare system is pretty pathetic. If you don’t take personal responsibility for your health, or happen to be blessed with extraordinary genetic resilience, you’re going to be in really bad shape.

And the parallels between the audio industry, or any for-profit industry, and the Pharma industry are evident. Just look at the incessant advertisements on TV for the latest drugs they’re selling. Sell, sell, sell. There is a lot of money at stake and it often appears evident to me that health is not the primary motivating force.

(this is not to ignore the many valuable drugs the industry provides, and the many good people who work there.)

And back to the audio industry, where the stakes are much lower, if the consumer doesn’t take responsibility for discerning the difference between the latest magic box and more legitimate products, then they will suffer the consequences.

I agree with your observations about the audio industry. I was interested in exactly where the high five panel draw the line between legitimate products and "magic" because that is helpful context. When I see the same, often well-regarded companies selling what I believe are serious products and on the next page of the catalog stuff with claims that defy common sense at prices that seem to have no relation to reality, cognitive dissonance results. Of course, somebody must think those dubious products are the best thing since 7Up, so each to their own.

I've worked in healthcare and I think its a good example of the genius of capitalism-profit motivates innovation-but also why the system requires regulation-the profit motive can also drive excesses and lots of negative behavior. The problem is, just like in audio, figuring out the sweet spot.

 

[Elliot G.]

I agree with your observations about the audio industry. I was interested in exactly where the high five panel draw the line between legitimate products and "magic" because that is helpful context. When I see the same, often well-regarded companies selling what I believe are serious products and on the next page of the catalog stuff with claims that defy common sense at prices that seem to have no relation to reality, cognitive dissonance results. Of course, somebody must think those dubious products are the best thing since 7Up, so each to their own.

I've worked in healthcare and I think its a good example of the genius of capitalism-profit motivates innovation-but also why the system requires regulation-the profit motive can also drive excesses and lots of negative behavior. The problem is, just like in audio, figuring out the sweet spot.

Stay tuned and subscribe as these are some of the topics on our agenda to discuss.

 

[Elliot G.]

I agree with your observations about the audio industry. I was interested in exactly where the high five panel draw the line between legitimate products and "magic" because that is helpful context

could you give us an example of what you mean by a "magic box"?
I certainly feel that there is a lot of hokum being tossed around and personally have said that a technical advance does not necessarily equal a sonic advance but I don't think that is what you are referring too so that is why I ask.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Stay tuned and subscribe as these are some of the topics on our agenda to discuss.

the panel is mostly box switchers, not long term serious system tweakers. Elliot you have lots of system set-up chops for sure. which is a bit different than being a tweak believer. there is a difference between being a tweak denier, don't pay attention to (not knowledgeable about) tweaks, neutral on tweaks, or a tweak believer.

so find someone who goes there and tried lots of tweaks in a mature system to balance the talk. otherwise that perspective will get steam rolled and dismissed. if the panel has already drawn their own tweak line, or tweaks are off their radar, then why even talk about it? we know the ending already.

 

[Joe Whip]

An unnamed friend told me who works for an unnamed pharma company….No attribution. pretty easy to just ignore.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

If you are a tweaker then these are self inflicted issues that one can control by what and how they buy and from whom they take their information Mike. No one ever puts a gun to someone's head to buy a doo dad.
I think and have said this I think that tha t s the wrong way to get it done

no kidding. exactly my point. so why even talk about tweak 'magic' in a group of box changers? which is my whole point. not trying to change YOUR mind in any way. i respect where you come from.

but if you are offering to have tweak magic as a panel subject matter, don't do that either. or any 'magic' claim. just be a complete waste of time.

there has to be a champion of the target idea, to get some actual useful discussion.

 

[Elliot G.]

the panel is mostly box switchers, not long term serious system tweakers. Elliot you have lots of system set-up chops for sure. which is a bit different than being a tweak believer. there is a difference between being a tweak denier, don't pay attention to (not knowledgeable about) tweaks, neutral on tweaks, or a tweak believer.

so find someone who goes there and tried lots of tweaks in a mature system to balance the talk. otherwise that perspective will get steam rolled and dismissed. if the panel has already drawn their own tweak line, or tweaks are off their radar, then why even talk about it? we know the ending already.

personally i would prefer to address the larger issues that are facing audio. I still believe that buyers and users should do their homework about what to buy and from whom to buy it. There are far greater forces to examine in my opinion that are far more important. Tweeks can be fun for some and can solve some issues as well as causing others, as you know I am still far more interested in set up and room way before any of these tweek devices. I guess I didn't make myself clear I was not trying to say we are doing a show about tweeks, if that was the impression you got I apologize. There were other issues being discussed at the same time and that is what I was referring to as the Industry has far greater issues .
I dont like however these far reaching conspiratorial stories from unnamed sources but that is the world we live in today

 

[Mike Lavigne]

personally i would prefer to address the larger issues that are facing audio.

ok, have at it.

 

[Ron Resnick]

the panel is mostly box switchers, not long term serious system tweakers.

so find someone who goes there and tried lots of tweaks in a mature system to balance the talk. otherwise that perspective will get steam rolled and dismissed. if the panel has already drawn their own tweak line, or tweaks are off their radar, then why even talk about it? we know the ending already.

Hello Mike,

Thank you for expressing this concern about inherent bias.

If I am wearing my personal hobbyist hat, then I may express my personal opinions.

However, if I am wearing my professional interviewer hat, then my personal opinions are irrelevant (except to the extent my personal experience may inform my questions). I would defy you to find in one of my Masters & Makers interviews evidence of expressed bias as opposed to asking probing questions which challenge whatever are the native views of that particular interviewee.

On The HiFi Five where I have the opportunity to ask questions as a neutral interviewer I adopt the journalistic Masters & Makers posture.

Of course if, for example, the interviewee is an objectivist, then I will probe him with pro-subjectivist type questions, and so inevitably that will come off looking like I am advancing my personal subjectivist views. But that is not actually what's going on. If I am interviewing a subjectivist audiophile you can be darn sure I am going to be taking the objectivist point of view for the purpose of pressuring the interviewee to defend his subjectivist views.

 

[Ron Resnick]

there has to be a champion of the target idea, to get some actual useful discussion.

+1
definitely

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello Mike,

Thank you for expressing this concern about inherent bias.

If I am wearing my personal hobbyist hat, then I may express my personal opinions.

However, if I am wearing my professional interviewer hat, then my personal opinions are irrelevant (except to the extent my personal experience may inform my questions). I would defy you to find in one of my Masters & Makers interviews evidence of expressed bias as opposed to asking probing questions which challenge whatever are the native views of that particular interviewee.

On The HiFi Five where I have the opportunity to ask questions as a neutral interviewer I adopt the journalistic Masters & Makers posture.

Of course if, for example, the interviewee is an objectivist, then I will probe him with pro-subjectivist type questions, and so inevitably that will come off looking like I am advancing my personal subjectivist views. But that is not actually what's going on. If I am interviewing a subjectivist audiophile you can be darn sure I am going to be taking the objectivist point of view for the purpose of pressuring the interviewee to defend his subjectivist views.

agree there is certainly an effort by the panel to be open minded. that is clear and i want to give credit where it's due.

OTOH negative tweak bias = ignorance. which is my point. if that subject comes up only someone who has done them in a mature system can defend them. and a big part of tweaking is reaching the point of a stable mature system. in other words, when to do tweaks is a big part of whether they actually do something.

and another word for tweaks is 'system tuning'......or even 'tweak-tuning'. which again requires a stable system. the hifi retail/manufacturing environment is not friendly to it. and it's not sexy to talk about by influencers or dealers as it's hard to sell. they need pretty boxes.

 

[microstrip]

Those doing the measuring.

Tom

Thanks for the circular answer. We can't put everyone in the same class. Some people measure a lot of things that audiophiles did not even dream about. There is life in measurements beyond the Stereophile section of measurements and their simplistic interpretation. Designers and manufacturers carry a lot of elaborated and proprietary measurements that are not released to the public. Current top audio analyzers are extremely powerful and give us a lot of information.

Audio measurements is a very complex technical subject and can't be translated in easily understood consumer talk. Unfortunately the audio press and the audio marketing use them mostly in a promotional way, giving people a false idea of their capabilities.

 

[microstrip]

(...) And back to the audio industry, where the stakes are much lower, if the consumer doesn’t take responsibility for discerning the difference between the latest magic box and more legitimate products, then they will suffer the consequences.

The typical high-end audio hobbyist does not want to take technical responsibilities - he wants to believe in magic and will react against anything that can menace such belief.

 

[Kbh57]

could you give us an example of what you mean by a "magic box"?
I certainly feel that there is a lot of hokum being tossed around and personally have said that a technical advance does not necessarily equal a sonic advance but I don't think that is what you are referring too so that is why I ask.

Sure, but with context. I think there is sort of a sliding scale and folks get off the tweak train (for want of a better phrase) at different stations. The ASR group would stop at cables, for example, while others see cables as vitally important components. Others stop at digital enhancements like switches. For others, purple fuses is where they get off, and I'm sort of in that camp. And the cable risers- I see AQ selling them for $150 and another company for $499 (these are not risers, but "performance elevators") I have my cables off the floor via rebar chairs you can buy for $20 a bag that look quite similar to $150 audiophile risers. My rebar chairs make no sonic difference, of course, but I like the look. And there are crystals, etc., that supposedly improve sound. That's a couple of bridges too far for me. But others perceive value in these products.

I have an opinion, but its not for me to tell someone else what they hear. If cable performance enhancers or tuning crystals deliver a more enjoyable listening experience for someone, that's what its all about. Good for them-I don't pass judgment on how someone else chooses to spend their money. Too many people in this hobby claim a monopoly on being right. Knowing where a panelist, or reviewer, draws these lines, however, provides context to better understand their point of view. Which is why I raised the question during the show.

 

[microstrip]

Hello Mike,

Thank you for expressing this concern about inherent bias.

If I am wearing my personal hobbyist hat, then I may express my personal opinions.

However, if I am wearing my professional interviewer hat, then my personal opinions are irrelevant (except to the extent my personal experience may inform my questions). I would defy you to find in one of my Masters & Makers interviews evidence of expressed bias as opposed to asking probing questions which challenge whatever are the native views of that particular interviewee.

On The HiFi Five where I have the opportunity to ask questions as a neutral interviewer I adopt the journalistic Masters & Makers posture.

Of course if, for example, the interviewee is an objectivist, then I will probe him with pro-subjectivist type questions, and so inevitably that will come off looking like I am advancing my personal subjectivist views. But that is not actually what's going on. If I am interviewing a subjectivist audiophile you can be darn sure I am going to be taking the objectivist point of view for the purpose of pressuring the interviewee to defend his subjectivist views.

Ron,

You can have the best of the intentions, but IMO you would not be able to defend the objectivist point of view properly. It would always be a biased debate.

 

[Kbh57]

Hello Mike,

Thank you for expressing this concern about inherent bias.

If I am wearing my personal hobbyist hat, then I may express my personal opinions.

However, if I am wearing my professional interviewer hat, then my personal opinions are irrelevant (except to the extent my personal experience may inform my questions). I would defy you to find in one of my Masters & Makers interviews evidence of expressed bias as opposed to asking probing questions which challenge whatever are the native views of that particular interviewee.

On The HiFi Five where I have the opportunity to ask questions as a neutral interviewer I adopt the journalistic Masters & Makers posture.

Of course if, for example, the interviewee is an objectivist, then I will probe him with pro-subjectivist type questions, and so inevitably that will come off looking like I am advancing my personal subjectivist views. But that is not actually what's going on. If I am interviewing a subjectivist audiophile you can be darn sure I am going to be taking the objectivist point of view for the purpose of pressuring the interviewee to defend his subjectivist views.

I thought the masters and makers interviews were really a model of how it should be done. Always very informative and asked relevant, straightforward questions