Do you have any information on what Dohman will be using for hold down? Just curious.
I will ask Nagra if they are considering it as well. Again, I still see it as a tradeoff - it is not a panacea; but the pros may outweigh the cons, especially if you don't want to spend the time fiddling with a flattener.
I got better sound from my TechDAS by putting a thick carbon platter “mat” on and forgoing the suction on the LP. If you have flat records I don’t think vacuum is required.
I got better sound from my TechDAS by putting a thick carbon platter “mat” on and forgoing the suction on the LP. If you have flat records I don’t think vacuum is required.
Exactly. This is what you forego with vacuum. Remember, there are no free lunches. When you add the vacuum you lose in the coupling between platter and record.
Do you have any information on what Dohman will be using for hold down? Just curious.
I will ask Nagra if they are considering it as well. Again, I still see it as a tradeoff - it is not a panacea; but the pros may outweigh the cons, especially if you don't want to spend the time fiddling with a flattener.
I do not know the specifics about the new vacuum hold down system which Mark Dohmann will be/is using. It is my understanding that Mark has been working on a hold down system for quite a few years. I also know that Dohmann has a new distributor in Musical Surroundings. Musical Surroundings has a price list which you can access through their website which lists the new vacuum hold down system for Dohmann 1 and Dohmann 2 turntables, both new and retro-fitted to Dohmann 1 and 2 turntables. This new vacuum hold down system is listed as being available starting in 2026, at a significant upcharge. There will also be what appears to be a pretty spectacular Wilson-Benesch/Dohmann tone arm available designed specifically for the Dohmann turntables, which may already be available, also at a significant price. There also is/will be a new Wilson-Benesch/Dohmann phono cartridge designed for the Dohmann turntables. But again I do not know the specifics of the new hold down system, just that it has been in development for years and that Mark is finally satisfied with what he has been able to design and that it will be available in 2026. Does anyone have more information than I have? I would love to hear.
I do not know the specifics about the new vacuum hold down system which Mark Dohmann will be/is using. It is my understanding that Mark has been working on a hold down system for quite a few years. I also know that Dohmann has a new distributor in Musical Surroundings. Musical Surroundings has a price list which you can access through their website which lists the new vacuum hold down system for Dohmann 1 and Dohmann 2 turntables, both new and retro-fitted to Dohmann 1 and 2 turntables. This new vacuum hold down system is listed as being available starting in 2026, at a significant upcharge. There will also be what appears to be a pretty spectacular Wilson-Benesch/Dohmann tone arm available designed specifically for the Dohmann turntables, which may already be available, also at a significant price. There also is/will be a new Wilson-Benesch/Dohmann phono cartridge designed for the Dohmann turntables. But again I do not know the specifics of the new hold down system, just that it has been in development for years and that Mark is finally satisfied with what he has been able to design and that it will be available in 2026. Does anyone have more information than I have? I would love to hear.
The problem is that record warpage is a fact of life with vinyl. There is no flattener out there which can get the record perfectly flat without harming the record and virtually no records come perfectly flat. And the better your equipment the more you notice the sound issues caused by records which are not perfectly flat. VPI uses a Periphery Ring Clamp, but that has its own issues and is why so few manufacturers take that route. So you are left with playing records which are not perfectly flat or using a vacuum hold down which gets closer than anything else to getting the record to lay flat. There is a good reason why the state of the art is headed towards vacuum hold down systems. Even Mark Dohmann has come up with a vacuum hold down system which will be available in 2026. And, given their current association with Mark Dohmann (they have worked together on arms and cartridges) it is my understanding that even Wilson-Benesch is looking into a vacuum hold down system.
I have been using an Orb DF-02 for over 10 years. Warped or dished records are no longer an issue. I use a metal Micro Seiki cu-180 platter mat, so records must be flat.
Put them in the Orb and they come out flat. There is ZERO degradation in the vinyl.
Vacuum hold-down has one drawback: most manufacturers don’t know how to design and implement it or can’t integrate it with a huge profit. Every other “criticism” you hear is just a lie.
I agree! I think it would be difficult to implement the vacuum hold down in an existing system, such as the Dohmann and Nagra! It probably required a complete redesign of the bearing system, and that’s probably why it is nearly always expensive for such upgrades.
Another much easier and cheaper way is to add a record mat with vacuum hold down function to the existing TT. I believe SAT is using this method, which is similar to the Audio Technica AT666 EX introduced in the 1980s. Of course, this system is more troublesome to operate!
I agree! I think it would be difficult to implement the vacuum hold down in an existing system, such as the Dohmann and Nagra! It probably required a complete redesign of the bearing system, and that’s probably why it is nearly always expensive for such upgrades.
Another much easier and cheaper way is to add a record mat with vacuum hold down function to the existing TT. I believe SAT is using this method, which is similar to the Audio Technica AT666 EX introduced in the 1980s. Of course, this system is more troublesome to operate!
The system could be really annoying at times, but in the end it worked 99% of the time.
P.S
Not suitable for short heights in the LP. Sometimes it helped to apply some Vaseline to the spindle hole to seal it better
Exactly. This is what you forego with vacuum. Remember, there are no free lunches. When you add the vacuum you lose in the coupling between platter and record.
I am not trying to argue about vacuum / no vacuum which is better, as there is always users’ preference involved! However, I don’t think it is accurate to describe the vacuum system as “lose in the coupling between platter and record”, due to the minimal decrease in contact surface! As a matter of fact, in addition to flattening the records on the platter, another major function of the vacuum system is to couple the records to the platter as much as possible! If you have ever used a vacuum system, you would noticed it is very difficult to lift up the LP from the platter if the vacuum pump is on, unless you break the seal by pressing your fingers on the vacuum lip! I am not sure about other TTs, but in the Rockports, they actually push a little bit of air back in between the platter and record when the vacuum pump is switch off. This is to assist in breaking the vacuum, so users can lift up the record!
If coupling the records to the platter is the goal, the vacuum system is the most effective and practical method I have seen so far!
The Vyger vacuum hold down is sonically great. Makes way more difference with and without than on Techdas. However, I have no idea of cost vs profit margin and if it causes mantenance issues.
The Vyger vacuum hold down is sonically great. Makes way more difference with and without than on Techdas. However, I have no idea of cost vs profit margin and if it causes mantenance issues.
May I ask when you did the vacuum / no vacuum comparison on the Vyger, did you just switch the vacuum on and off, or you took out the vacuum gaskets on the platter when doing the no vacuum auditioning? Thanks
May I ask when you did the vacuum / no vacuum comparison on the Vyger, did you just switch the vacuum on and off, or you took out the vacuum gaskets on the platter when doing the no vacuum auditioning? Thanks
IMHO, it is unfair to the no vacuum option if we just switch the vacuum on and off, as the vacuum gaskets are very likely to lift up the record slightly when there is no vacuum, and as such, lessen the coupling between the platter and record!
I believe to do the comparison impartially, we have to take out the vacuum gaskets completely when listening with no vacuum, so the record can lie flat on the platter. Of course, this is quite troublesome, and may even be impossible in some TTs without destroying the gaskets!
The Vyger vacuum hold down is sonically great. Makes way more difference with and without than on Techdas. However, I have no idea of cost vs profit margin and if it causes mantenance issues.
That’s probably because TechDAS’ vacuum hold-down is technologically superior to Vyger’s. The rubber lips lift the record when the vacuum is disengaged, and once the record is slightly floating on air, the sonic difference compared to full vacuum coupling is substantial.
