SS Amp Performance Characteristics

[Atmasphere]

That's fine. I'm not pushing.
I see things opposit. Just because I hear something does not mean I can't find it in my system. Most systems leave a lot in the box. The owners don't know how to get it out. Hearing what your missing is about finding what you have.

I put my new horn sub in. OMG. I found all the bass I was missing. Buying a SS amp would be a backward step. I had 2 very fine SS amps and my current amp slaughtered them. I'm so happy I was coached in a good direction.

One thing we heard over and over again is how different and better the bass was in our OTLs as opposed to whatever brand was being used, assuming the speaker was a good load for both amps.

My speakers are flat to 20Hz. Most tube amps with output transformers get in trouble in the bottom octave (which is why you want to use the preamp output for your subs if you can). Its nice to hear what that's about.

Most solid state amps have enough feedback that doing bass frequencies really isn't a problem. In older designs especially, this may not be true at higher frequencies where their distortion rises but for bass they are OK. The bigger issue is whether an amp used for subwoofer service has a big enough power supply and thermal capacity to run subs properly.

Dayton Audio has a subwoofer amp that is designed for lower frequencies and has its crossover built in. Its the one that Duke of Audiokinesis recommends for use with his Swarm subs. Its not expensive and does the job.

What is your crossover frequency from the horn sub to everything else?

 

[Kingrex]

One thing we heard over and over again is how different and better the bass was in our OTLs as opposed to whatever brand was being used, assuming the speaker was a good load for both amps.

My speakers are flat to 20Hz. Most tube amps with output transformers get in trouble in the bottom octave (which is why you want to use the preamp output for your subs if you can). Its nice to hear what that's about.

Most solid state amps have enough feedback that doing bass frequencies really isn't a problem. In older designs especially, this may not be true at higher frequencies where their distortion rises but for bass they are OK. The bigger issue is whether an amp used for subwoofer service has a big enough power supply and thermal capacity to run subs properly.

Dayton Audio has a subwoofer amp that is designed for lower frequencies and has its crossover built in. Its the one that Duke of Audiokinesis recommends for use with his Swarm subs. Its not expensive and does the job.

What is your crossover frequency from the horn sub to everything else?

I am still feeling it out. But I fluctuate between 62 and 84 hertz. I also swirch between 12 and 24 on the slope. I'm amazed at how audible the slope is. Phase is 0.

 

[Kingrex]

Well, now I am spun up on a Luxman M700???

 

[Kingrex]

Peter made a comment on another thread about what is a Reference piece in ones system. I noted a reference doesn't have to be good or bad. Its just a known piece. I don't believe I would be able to find a SS amp that would outperform my tube amp in certain area. In other area my tube amp would not meet a SS amps characteristics.
A friend called me today and had a similar experience to me. He had a $50K SS amp and a well done boutique tube amp performed better in area that mattered to him and he sold the SS amp. Similar to my experience. I like what I hear with tubes more than what I miss with the SS.

But, that does not mean that I don't want a SS amp to have as a reference to assess changes I make in the system and how they are impacting the primary amp I use. I use the SS amp to gauge whether I am getting closer, or further from what I find to be the most pleasing playback in my system.

I did make a lowball offer on a Soulnote A2 that is Japan 100Volt. Only because Torus is willing to make me a personal transformer that is 120 in and 100 out to power it. So far I was told to pound sand. I really don't want to pay more. Not for a tool. I can use the Torus elsewhere as I can re-tap it to 120 out and put it on my modem and router in another room. But I don't need to do that. So I will wait. Maybe the new Soulnote A2 will release soon. That will probably drive a lot of people to sell there current one to get the new one.

 

[Rob181]

I did make a lowball offer on a Soulnote A2 that is Japan 100Volt. Only because Torus is willing to make me a personal transformer that is 120 in and 100 out to power it. Maybe the new Soulnote A2 will release soon. That will probably drive a lot of people to sell there current one to get the new one.

With the current tariff of 15% in place on Japanese goods - don't hold your breath...

 

[Kingrex]

I wasn't. And and don't think he's going to get much very soon. There are a lot of 120 volt new ot almost dealer used for $5200. Getting $4k on 3rd hand and not made for US and not wanting to ship far. And Japan sells them for pretty cheap to the US in 100 Volt. So theres competition from Japan stores too. But yea, tariffs also change buying habits.

 

[Kingrex]

Delete

 

[Kingrex]

I bought a Musical Fidelity A3cr amp. I should have it in about a week.
I was considering a VTV class D amp. I don't know. Wasn't sure what you get on a entry level amp. The supposed.better amps were 3 times what I spent on the MF.

 

[Atmasphere]

I bought a Musical Fidelity A3cr amp. I should have it in about a week.
I was considering a VTV class D amp. I don't know. Wasn't sure what you get on a entry level amp. The supposed.better amps were 3 times what I spent on the MF.

In the broadcasting world they call that phenomena 'gold plated deciBels'. The cheaper stuff is usually cheaper for a reason which can be a variety of things from cosmetic appearance, how well built it is, how robust the power supply is, where its built and so on.

 

[Kingrex]

Well, I think that's a little how people feel about all class D.
What disturbed me more was the more expensive models using the pure ify had very mixed forum chatter. Some people said they were very dry and lacked any pratt.

I think a perfect use 41 of those amps would be getting a 6 channel for about $1400. Pair that with a Sublime Acoustic active analog crossover. Experiment with multi amping in my speaker.

 

[JayR]

Kingrex,

Are you in WA state? I have had the NAD M33 for years in my system and find its performance really good. Can’t really call out any shortcomings and it is pretty musical. You are welcome to borrow it and try in your system if you like.

 

[Kingrex]

Kingrex,

Are you in WA state? I have had the NAD M33 for years in my system and find its performance really good. Can’t really call out any shortcomings and it is pretty musical. You are welcome to borrow it and try in your system if you like.

Yes. I'm on Vashon Island.

 

[JayR]

Stereo.

 

[Atmasphere]

Some people said they were very dry and lacked any pratt.

IME developing our class D, this is easily explained by execution. Those modules are sold without input buffers. Some people know how to design a good input buffer and some don't. The power supply weighs heavily into the results as well. So no surprise you see the variable reactions!

 

[JayR]

IME developing our class D, this is easily explained by execution. Those modules are sold without input buffers. Some people know how to design a good input buffer and some don't. The power supply weighs heavily into the results as well. So no surprise you see the variable reactions!

Disclaimer… I am not a reviewer nor a hard core audiophile. My choice of words trying to describe my experience might not be right.

I have noticed that even with supposedly well designed units, it is sometimes more difficult to follow the ebb and flow of music. This tends to lead to fatigue. Case in point, my Devialet D200 which I still own. I cannot point to the lack of any metric if it is used within its capabilities. However, that unit never got me engrossed in the music that I listen to or get my toes tapping. The NAD is certainly more musical and easier to listen to. What is it about amplifiers that make them musical and enjoyable to listen to?

I remember from my early days, the most fun I have ever had were with a 3w Decware Zen and a 30w PassAleph3. Wish I still had those.

 

[Kingrex]

Always wanted to try a Decware. Probably never will.

 

[Atmasphere]

Disclaimer… I am not a reviewer nor a hard core audiophile. My choice of words trying to describe my experience might not be right.

I have noticed that even with supposedly well designed units, it is sometimes more difficult to follow the ebb and flow of music. This tends to lead to fatigue. Case in point, my Devialet D200 which I still own. I cannot point to the lack of any metric if it is used within its capabilities. However, that unit never got me engrossed in the music that I listen to or get my toes tapping. The NAD is certainly more musical and easier to listen to. What is it about amplifiers that make them musical and enjoyable to listen to?

I remember from my early days, the most fun I have ever had were with a 3w Decware Zen and a 30w PassAleph3. Wish I still had those.

I've experienced that too although not with that amp. Its as if somehow the amp contrives to be boring. IMO there are multiple issues at play- its not any one thing, although if the amp is making unmasked higher ordered harmonics, it won't be particularly musical.

 

[JayR]

I've experienced that too although not with that amp. Its as if somehow the amp contrives to be boring. IMO there are multiple issues at play- its not any one thing, although if the amp is making unmasked higher ordered harmonics, it won't be particularly musical.

So, we hear “unmasked higher order harmonics” that makes it less musical? Does it change the musical notes or timing? Is elimination of harmonic distortion possible? Will it make the amplifier sound more musical?

Sorry if the question are lame. Tried reading a bit about harmonics and distortion and it seems like a Pandora’s box to me.

 

[Atmasphere]

So, we hear “unmasked higher order harmonics” that makes it less musical? Does it change the musical notes or timing? Is elimination of harmonic distortion possible? Will it make the amplifier sound more musical?

Yes.
No.
Somewhat, and 'yes', as long as reducing the distortion does not unmask higher orders.

The ear uses higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure and assigns tonality to any harmonic information which is how we can tell the difference between sounds. Lower orders (the 2nd and 3rd in particular) are known to be able to mask the presence of higher ordered harmonics. This is literlly what has kept tube amps in business since the inception of the transistor, because even though they have more higher ordered harmonic content than solid state amps (particularly true of SETs), the presence of a fairly prominent 2nd and 3rd hides their presence due to the ear's masking principle. Solid state amps usually have less of the lower orders (which is why they usually don't sound as 'warm'), enough so that the higher orders may not be masked (which can contribute to harshness, especially at higher power levels).

 

[JayR]

I appreciate your time explaining these concepts to me. I also read the entire thread on your Class D amps where much of these concepts were discussed. I think I got a general understanding of these phenomenon and how it affects human perception. Much appreciated.

I will see if I can get a pair of the class D mono locks to try in my system. Would using the NAD M33 as a preamp be suitable for the class D mono blocks to perform their magic? Is there distortion issues in the preamp stage too?

Thanks again.