Plug-In Hybrid EV: Best of Both Worlds or Worst of Both Worlds?

[Ron Resnick]

Who here has a plug-in hybrid automobile?

For my entire car life Volvo was never on my radar screen, because the brand just seemed preternaturally conservative and boring. On Friday I test drove a 2026 Volvo XC40 Recharge. Yesterday I test drove a 2026 Volvo XC60 T8 Ultra.

After also driving recently MB GLA, MB GLC, Genesis GV70 and Hyundai Santa Fe there is something about the Volvos that I really liked! I'm surprised about this but my impression is my impression.

They seem well-made, good quality materials, solid construction, comfortable, very easy to drive, good visibility, and the 455 hp hybrid XC60 was darn fun! I really like that XC60 T8 Ultra! At 78 inches wide it exceeds my maximum width parameter by like 3 inches, but because the visibility is actually better than in the GV70, the excess width didn't seem to bother me that much.

What is your experience with plug-in hybrids? When your current plug-in hybrid drops dead or is sold, would you get another one?

Or is the whole plug-in hybrid concept just a transitional and soon-to-be-obsolete design to get Boomers comfortable with EVs?

 

[Another Johnson]

A major issue with EVs is range anxiety. The plug in hybrid has a big enough battery to run around town as an EV … but the hybrid feature allows it to drive on long trips (with gas and battery as algorithm dictates) without ever plugging in. A plain ol’ hybrid has a smaller battery, so its EV range is usually under 1 mile.

It is “the best of both worlds” if you are committed to the idea that electric cars are more ecologically sound than cars that exclusively use traditional mobile fuels.

The Volvos are very well engineered.

Before I retired, I taught an engineering graduate course on alternative fuels and power trains. For our driving needs, a plain ol’ hybrid has been our choice.

 

[dan31]

Looking at MB GLE450 and the 450e hybrid. I am favoring the mild hybrid vs the plugin hybrid.

We are planning on keeping it 10+ years so I am favoring the mild hybrid. Basically an electric motor for the starter and engine assist.

 

[Glide3]

What another Johnson said!

 

[adyc]

EREV should solve range anxiety

 

[Ron Resnick]

It is “the best of both worlds” if you are committed to the idea that electric cars are more ecologically sound than cars that exclusively use traditional mobile fuels.

I have no commitment to that idea.

The Volvos are very well engineered.

They sure seem to be! And the Volvo hybrid design seems to have a uniquely clever idea or two.

Before I retired, I taught an engineering graduate course on alternative fuels and power trains. For our driving needs, a plain ol’ hybrid has been our choice.

Interesting. Thank you!

Which hybrid do you have?

 

[Ron Resnick]

What another Johnson said!

Which hybrid do you have, Kurt?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Looking at MB GLE450 and the 450e hybrid. I am favoring the mild hybrid vs the plugin hybrid.

We are planning on keeping it 10+ years so I am favoring the mild hybrid. Basically an electric motor for the starter and engine assist.

Why are you favoring the mild hybrid rather than the plug-in hybrid?

 

[Another Johnson]

Which hybrid do you have?

In the early years of commercially available hybrids and EVs, I had multi day evaluation periods with EVs, serial, and parallel hybrids as part of my course. GM, Nissan, and Toyota would provide vehicles so that the class could assess them.

In the years since, I’ve owned more than a dozen. My favorites have been Prii (plural of Prius) and Camrys. Both are classic Toyota parallel hybrids. Both have plug in versions. Both, in our driving style, have given long term real mpgs of more than 50.

I’ve not liked any of the SUV sized hybrids. Too heavy, and not capable of long term average gas mileages in our use pattern.

My least favorite (recently traded away) was the Tundra pickup truck (which is not Toyotas classic powertrain design). Compared to the gas models, the hybrid Tundra is a heavy pig (in my driving style) that gets mediocre gas mileage (even during long junkets on the slab).

Right now we’re driving a ‘23 Prius (which will be traded soon) and a ‘25 Tundra 1794 gas model (that gets its 5000 mile service today). I have a good friend who is a Toyota dealer. For my driving habits, if the cars are comparable, the dealer’s pre and post sale customer service are the deal maker or breaker. I might like some other cars more… but if I think the dealer is practicing jiggery pokery, I won’t buy.

I am pretty negative about dishonest marketing, especially when supported by government. The official MPGe spec is an example. The numbers are always very high, but the calculation literally includes a factor due to “the benefit of electric vehicles to society.” This factor would be more transparent to the competent curious consumer were it a multiplier (above the line). Instead it is a divisor (below the line), and this obfuscates its effect for virtually all but the least math challenged. The net impact on the Well to Wheels calculation is that MPGe is inflated by a factor of about 6. So that 120MPGe EV is really delivering an honestly calculated 20 mpg.

 

[Another Johnson]

Why are you favoring the mild hybrid rather than the plug-in hybrid?

I know this is directed to another, but the usual reasons are:

Bigger battery takes up more storage space

Bigger battery adds weight, impacting handling and load capacity

Infrastructure in garage to support charging is annoying, and adds cost.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am pretty negative about dishonest marketing, especially when supported by government. The official MPGe spec is an example. The numbers are always very high, but the calculation literally includes a factor due to “the benefit of electric vehicles to society.”

Wow! That is so dishonest!

 

[djsina2]

I am pretty negative about dishonest marketing, especially when supported by government. The official MPGe spec is an example. The numbers are always very high, but the calculation literally includes a factor due to “the benefit of electric vehicles to society.”

Please post a link to this. I see no info on this.

“The EPA uses a standard energy content of 33.7 kWh per gallon of gasoline as the baseline for comparison. MPGe is calculated by determining how far a vehicle can travel on 33.7 kWh of energy.”

 

[Glide3]

Which hybrid do you have, Kurt?

Hi Ron,
I don’t have a hybrid. I recently sold my Porsche Macan and got an Audi EV, which I am very happy with after a couple months use.I made this choice because I drive less than 300 miles per month on average and in the family we have two gas fueled cars whenever we are planning something longer than a couple hundred miles.
My opinions on the utility of a good hybrid design are largely based on the experience and advice of a close friend ( Mike, who you know) who works as an engineer for Tesla and understands these technologies very well. His clear advice is for the Hybrid based largely on the exact sentiments that Another Johnson described.

 

[Ron Resnick]

This is an interesting data point. Perhaps plug-in hybrids will not be merely transitionary vehicles for EV-skeptical Boomers.

 

[microstrip]

(...) It is “the best of both worlds” if you are committed to the idea that electric cars are more ecologically sound than cars that exclusively use traditional mobile fuels. (...)

Yes, if people live in a country where more than 60% of the electricity is produced using coal - in general a low efficiency very polluting process - the question is not simple.

The Volvos are very well engineered.

Probably. But they have high maintenance costs and the XC40 reliability was not top.

Before I retired, I taught an engineering graduate course on alternative fuels and power trains. For our driving needs, a plain ol’ hybrid has been our choice.

You are pointing the exact main question "for our driving needs". Everyone has a different need and faces range anxiety differently.

But yes, some audiophiles like to suffer, why shouldn't drivers feel the same?

IMO the hard part is putting all the different matters on the table and finding an acceptable compromise.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i think the answer to this question will be very different based on where you live, and what administration is in charge.

but generally plug in's are too expensive, too complicated, and the support too up in the air to be worthy of a purchase. if you can lease it short term with an easy out then that would be how i would do it.

on the ground, talking to customers, they do have an interest in the plug in concept, but when made aware of the facts decide mostly for gasoline or conventional hybrid. that is the real world reality and what is going to be dominant in North America. EV's will require big subsidies and a grid infrastructure that is not real world. the money tree for it has died. voters are not going there again.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for your perspective, Mike!

From my driving tests and rentals thus far I do find the quietness and non-fatiguing character of the EV to be attractive for local chores, errands and trips with a one or a two hour driving radius. They are fast electric golf carts. I like the Volvo EC40 and the Ioniq 5 as a Barney replacement.

If the mission profile expanded to general use I really like the XC60 T8 Ultra. Leasing makes good sense in every one of these scenarios.

 

[Another Johnson]

Please post a link to this. I see no info on this.

“The EPA uses a standard energy content of 33.7 kWh per gallon of gasoline as the baseline for comparison. MPGe is calculated by determining how far a vehicle can travel on 33.7 kWh of energy.”

I will have to go dig through my old notes to find the derivation and its adoption in CFR.

But meanwhile, I note that it is further obfuscated by how they’ve redefined its presentation to lay people.

This will have to sate your curiosity for now. It is mostly true. CBT news is “Car Biz Today.” I’ve never looked at CBT before today.

EPA's EV mileage scandal EXPOSED

The EPA’s MPGe metric inflates EV efficiency, misleading consumers and distorting policy. Here's why it must be fixed.

www.cbtnews.com

FWIW, I will go to my archives to dig for those notes when I get the chance. The factor to consider the benefit of EVs to society was .15 and it was in the denominator. That’s equivalent to a factor of about 6.7 in the numerator.

Even Wikipedia mentions the .15 fudge factor.

From Wikipedia:
The formula also includes a "fuel content factor" of ⁠1/0.15⁠ (about 6.667) to benefit electric vehicles, raising the value from 12,307 to 82,049 Wh/gal. This reward factor is intended provide an incentive for vehicle manufactures to produce and sell electric vehicles, as a higher equivalent fuel economy for EVs improves the carmaker overall fleet fuel economy levels in complying with the CAFE standards, and Congress anticipated that such an incentive would help accelerate the commercialization of electric vehicles. The incentive factor chosen by DoE for EVs is the same ⁠1/0.15⁠ factor already applied in the regulatory treatment of other types of alternative fuel vehicles.[14] When all factors are considered in DoE's formula, the energy efficiency or equivalent fuel economy of electric vehicles increases, being calculated in miles per the petroleum-equivalency factor of 82,049 Wh/gal rather than miles per the usual gasoline gallon equivalent of 33,705 Wh/gallon, for the purposes of CAFE credits to manufacturers.

 

[Glide3]

it does concern me that the author of the article linked, Lauren Fix, has ties to the fossil fuel industry and seems to represent opinions and views that have called into question objectivity.
Of course, this doesn’t necessarily mean anything in this specific article isn’t purely factual

 

[Tangram]

I really like the look of the current Prius PHEV. But one of the things I love about my Tesla is how few parts it has. PHEVs have a lot of parts which means potential maintenance headaches down the road. I have 60,000 miles on my Model Y. Other than replace a headlamp (highway debris), a brake adjustment and replacement of trailing arms, I haven’t done anything to it.