Outstanding Pure DSD256 Downloads with some DXD thrown in...

Would you like to compare on your system a DXD edit master file to a Pure DSD256 edit master file mixed from the identical DSD64 tracking channels? I have it available for you to download and compare. Read on...

Tom Peeters is celebrating the 25th Anniversary of his founding of Cobra Records with the release of a Producer's Choice Vol.1 sampler album. Working with Tom Caulfield at NativeDSD, Tom Peeters is going back to the original DSD64 tracking channels stored in his archives, and remastering them in DXD on Pyramix. He is then sending those original DSD64 tracking channels to Tom Caulfield who will remaster them in HQPlayer Pro in Pure DSD256 (with no PCM) using the identical settings used in the Pyramix remastering.

I have permission to share both edit master files with readers of Positive Feedback. Go to this article for a more complete explanation of the process used and then use the link provided in the article to download the comparison sample files:

Cobra Records Mastering Comparison Pure DSD256 and DXD, with Free Sample Download Included

In this article, I will tell you what Ann and I hear. But you should listen for yourself first. Then, please, comment below the article and also come back to this thread and tell us what you hear.

I hope you enjoy the opportunity to hear this. It will be as controlled a comparison as I think your will find between the sound of a first generation edit master created in DXD versus a first generation edit master created in Pure DSD256. I assure you, they do sound different even though the source tracking channels, levels, channel panning, and EQ are identical.
First of all thank you, Rushton, for making these two files - in dxd and in dsd 64 upgraded to dsd 256 - in cooperation with Tom Peeters of Cobra records available to us. I dowloaded both this morning and I am in the middle of comparing them : my first impressions are that the dsd version sounds smoother and more relaxed than the dxd version. Or if you will: the dsd file sounds more refined. With this - original dsd - recording I prefer the dsd version to the dxd version. But … might this preference be a result of the fact that the original recording format was dsd (64)? I do not know. That said: it is a very fine recording and the (modern) music is interesting and quite accessible. Thanks again.
 
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Are you asking about the music files or the DACs? As to the music files... For most albums, HDTT provides both the DSD256 and DXD files when you purchase the DSD256. (And all lower resolutions, too.) Native DSD separates PCM and DSD, so you have to buy the DXD separately from the DSD256 file. I wish they'd adopt the HDTT pricing structure.

As to the DACs... Today's DACs will process both DXD (which is PCM 352.8kHz) and DSD256. Some will additionally handle up to PCM 768kHz and DSD512 (or DSD1024). Your choices from a cost standpoint start at around $230 at the very bottom end, to $1,000-2,000 for reasonably good sound, then as much as you are willing to pay beyond that. As with analog, all will sound different.

The real gremlins have to do with the choices used to store your digital files, select your music, and then feed to the DAC. Some DACs will allow you to plug a USB thumb drive directly into the DAC and then navigate your files via a screen built into the DAC. But, for most options you will be feeding via a USB cable from a computer using software on the computer. At this point, your choices will depend on whether you are using Mac or Windows. I use a mini-pc with Windows 11 and JRiver Media Center (not an easy piece of software to learn, but highly customizable).
"I wish they'd adopt the HDTT pricing structure". Native DSD does, for club membership.

A primary expense of operating NativeDSD is the amount charged by the delivery cloud service (AWS) for customer downloads, on a bit for bit basis. The club membership fee is to cover multiple downloads of different qualities, as well as additional benefits.
 
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There are numerous recordings of Beethoven’s five piano concertos. The high resolution recordings with Hannes Minnaar on piano and engineered by Bert van der Wolf have always impressed me: they are - in my view - beautifully played and gorgeously recorded:
Yes, Bert van der Wolf's recordings are always excellent. And the musicians with whom he works are top notch. Hannes Minnaar's set of the five Beethoven Piano Concertos is an excellent recommendation.

1756048391630.png

My Review HERE

His solo piano recordings are also excellent, as discussed here:

Pianist Hannes Minnaar - Artistry to Savor

1756048598340.png

And, if you enjoy Shostakovich as much as I do, then absolutely listen to his performance of Shostakovich's 24 Preludes:

1756048498447.png


My Review HERE

All beautifully recorded by Bert van der Wolf in 352.8 24-bit PCM (DXD). The DXD edit master is what I prefer on my system, as well.
 
But … might this preference be a result of the fact that the original recording format was dsd (64)? I do not know.

Perhaps. The point of the comparison, to my intention, was to allow people to listen and to come to their own conclusion about mastering DSD original format tracking channels in Pure DSD versus mastering them in DXD.

The vast majority of DSD recordings we find on the market (99.8% possibly) have been DXD mastered. And, to my ear, this really degrades the quality of what we might otherwise hear, which would be Pure DSD mastered entirely in the DSD domain.

What you describe as your initial impressions are consistent with what I hear. And there is more, as I describe in the article under "What Ann and I hear..."

Thanks for sharing! And thanks for your kind note of appreciation. I value that.
I hope others will listen and share their impressions when comparing these two mastering processes.
 
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"I wish they'd adopt the HDTT pricing structure". Native DSD does, for club membership.
My goodness! I look now and see that they have indeed changed. I can see this in my recent order of Hunnia's Duo Sera Encounters which I ordered in DSD256. Thank you for pointing this out. I will keep an eye out to see if this holds up consistently across other orders. It does not seem to apply when I order the DXD resolution of the album.
 
Yes, Bert van der Wolf's recordings are always excellent. And the musicians with whom he works are top notch. Hannes Minnaar's set of the five Beethoven Piano Concertos is an excellent recommendation.

View attachment 156880

My Review HERE

His solo piano recordings are also excellent, as discussed here:

Pianist Hannes Minnaar - Artistry to Savor

View attachment 156882

And, if you enjoy Shostakovich as much as I do, then absolutely listen to his performance of Shostakovich's 24 Preludes:

View attachment 156881


My Review HERE

All beautifully recorded by Bert van der Wolf in 352.8 24-bit PCM (DXD). The DXD edit master is what I prefer on my system, as well.
Yes, I agree: I do have this Shostakovich recording by Hannes Minnaar available in dxd / 24 bit and like it a lot.
 
My point is if you get the same quality level with DSD64 recordings modulated to DSD256 as you get with DSD256 recordings, why then do DSD256 recordings at all? You would need much less storage with DSD64 recordings than with DSD256 recordings for example and there might be other economic benefits for DSD64 recordings.
What does Tom Caulfield think about this point? I am curious :cool:
Hi Matthias, thanks for the opportunity to comment on your question. The short answer is no, you do not get the same quality for the reasons outlined below. I performed the DSD direct mix to stereo individually for each of the DSD deliverable rates from the 16 DSD64 tracking channels, for that was what was available. The source for this project is COBRA's 25 Anniversary album Volume 1, which were Tom Peeters earliest DSD recorded projects.

For clarity, DSD (or more accurately 1-bit level PDM - Pulse Density Modulation) is a storage/retrieval format originated as an archival medium for preserving earlier analog recordings by Sony. Unlike PCM, there are no digital values represented in its bitsteam, so it can not be directly processed in a digital computer. It's a digital bit based translation through modulation of a carrier from an analog signal (analog to digital conversion), and can in its raw form only be stored and retrieved in a digital computer.

All DSD recordings are the product of modulating a square wave shaped carrier (called bit clock) with audio, just like radio uses a sine wave shaped carrier modulated by audio. It's the same principle, but a different implementation process. Unlike PCM, which are discontinuous discrete stand alone binary digital word measured value samples (like frames in movie film), DSD is continuous like analog, since the carrier is continuous. The resolution, or degree of contentiousness of the contained audio is determined by the carrier frequency. Ergo, a DSD256 bitstream has four times the information stored or represented than in DSD64, since there are four times more conversion intervals per unit of time.

An unrelated to resolution difference from DSD64 to DSD256 is that since the carrier base frequency is four times greater (2.82MHz for DSD64; 11.28MHz for DSD256), the spectral harmonics are shifted four times higher in the frequency spectrum. The spectral shape of a square wave is the same regardless of its base frequency. The spectrum plot of a square wave is Gausian like shaped, with the highest energy at the base frequency of the square wave, and with both the higher and lower frequency harmonics falling rapidly off on both sides. It's the sub harmonics that interest us, since they can intersect and interact with the audio band upper harmonics.

With DSD64, the carrier sub harmonics are down about -100dB at 20KHz (reference 0dB), depending on the quality of the modulator. At 100KHz, they're down to about -50dB, or about the same noise level of tape, which is throughout its audio frequency bandwidth. Additionally, the carrier harmonics (sometimes characterized as noise) are uncorrelated with the modulating audio, and therefore sound (if it were possible to hear -100db at 20KHz noise) like random noise. DSD256 on the other hand, has all those frequency numbers shifted up four times; -100dB at 80KHz etc. Obviously, since none of that uncorrelated "noise" is perceivable, DAC designers used that fact to implement more gaussian/gentler shaped reconstruction filters, with much improved phase distortions playing DSD256, or higher.

Matthias, I apologize for the long winded reply. DSD is a much misunderstood format, usually conflated with PCM with folks trying to understand it. They're completely different digitization processes, with different results. PCM is processible in a digital computer, since it's digital word value based, and has many many tools available to produce recordings. DSD is an archival format with no digital values in its 1-bit incarnation, only digital computer processable through remodulation, and virtually no professional tools available for processing. It's also a product of carrier modulation versus sequential discrete sample measurements.

DSD does have a significant quality factor in its favorability. With the exception of Reference Recordings Keith Johnson's 176KHz 24 bit PCM recordings employing the Pacific Microsonics A/D converter he designed, ALL recordings produced in the last two decades use sigma-delta modulator front ended A/D converters to track/record. All these sigma-delta modulator converters produce multi level (6 level in Pro equipment) Pulse Density Modulation bit streams, which are then converted on the chip or associated processor in real time to either 1-bit level DSD, or PCM. This is hardly an issue with customer appreciation/demand for the vast majority of recordings produced, except for acoustic recordings rich in low level harmonics, real ambiance cues, and real dynamic range with a discerning audio quality customer base.

The inescapable fact is all conversions are lossy to some degree. DSD tracked recordings, post processed in DSD, have fewer conversions (just one remodulation in the process of multiple source channels mixed to the deliverable number of playback channels for the simplest recording projects), and are therefore closer to the origin sound detected by the microphones.

Thanks for reading!
Tom
 
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Musing here... As I listen the the HDTT release of Sonny Rollins' Way Out West in the DXD mastering of the tape transfer HERE, I was prompted to think about what different listening experiences they are between media.

Expanding on this initial musing resulted in the longer set of thoughts in this article…

 
Yes I have listened to it regularly and I like it a lot. This album was - like many of Bert van der Wolf’s outstanding recordings of large orchestral pieces - recorded in the sonically outstanding studio 5 in Hilversum (Holland) by Everett Porter.

I am somewhat confused after your remark about the 192kHz recording though: they claim on the Native dsd website that this is - like the other Pentatone Bartok recording by the same team - (an original) dxd recording. See:

Because of this I downloaded it in dxd / 24 bit. But maybe they made a mistake on the Native dsd website?
Hi Audiocrack,

As Rush later corrected on August 14, without the benefit of WBF allowing him to amend your post directly, the Pentatone Bluebeards Castle was recorded in DXD 24 bit, the highest recording bit resolution supported by Pyramix. It was later edited/post processed in DXD 32 bit (the Pyramix default resolution for binary word length growth of mixing and post processing tracking channels) , and then truncated to DXD24 bit for delivery to NativeDSD. That is the recording product I used to produce all the other deliverables NativeDSD offers. Additionally, our relationship with Pentatone exclusively provides us with the DXD edited masters recorded by Polyhymnia.

Over the years, Pentatone has gone from all of its recordings being recorded by Polyhymnia, to now a select few, as Polyhymnia appears to have reduced its project output. Now Pentatone's releases come from a variety of recording houses, the vast majority recorded in 96k or 192k PCM. When we can obtain the edit master, we identify it.

Since I hope I have your interest, please let me provide some detail of how the deliverables are produced on NativeDSD.

With all our labels, we strive to obtain the edited master, regardless of the sampling rate. I employ Pyramix Album Publishing, the professional industry standard for format conversions, for producing the FLAC PCM 96k, 192k, 352.8k, and DSD64, 128, and 256 deliverable formats. Additionally, I use the edited master through HQP Pro to produce the DSD512 and 1024, and the PCM 768k when desired by the label.

The important point here is that all edited masters, regardless of sample rate provided, are WAV format, and are offered on the site as such. Whatever the label sends NativeDSD, that is what I upload to our delivery server for that sample or bit rate. That includes 32 bit WAV files when provided. You can always identify a PCM edit master offering on NativeDSD by it being a WAV file. For economy's and download speed's sake, a lossless FLAC is also produced.

Thank you for reading through this explanation. I hope you find it helpful.

Tom
 
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Hi Matthias, thanks for the opportunity to comment on your question. The short answer is no, you do not get the same quality for the reasons stated below. I performed the direct DSD64 16 tracking channels mix to all the DSD deliverable rates individually, with the DSD64, for that was what was available. The source for this project is COBRA's 25 Anniversary album Volume 1, which were Tom Peeters earliest DSD recorded projects.

For clarity, DSD (or more accurately 1-bit level PDM - Pulse Density Modulation) is a storage/retrieval format originated as an archival medium for preserving earlier analog recordings by Sony. Unlike PCM, there are no digital values represented, so it can not be directly processed in a digital computer. It's a digital bit based translation through modulation of a carrier from an analog signal (analog to digital conversion), and can in its raw form only be stored and retrieved in a digital computer.

All DSD recordings are the product of modulating a square wave shaped carrier (called bit clock) with audio, just like radio uses a sine wave shaped carrier modulated by audio. It's the same principle, but a different implementation process. Unlike PCM, which are discontinuous discrete stand alone binary digital word measured value samples (like frames in movie film), DSD is continuous like analog, since the carrier is continuous. The resolution, or degree of contentiousness of the contained audio is determined by the carrier frequency. Ergo, a DSD256 bitstream has four times the information stored or represented than in DSD64, since there are four times more conversion intervals per unit of time.

An unrelated to resolution difference from DSD64 to DSD256 is that since the carrier base frequency is four times greater (2.82MHz for DSD64; 11.28MHz for DSD256), the spectral harmonics are shifted four times higher in the frequency spectrum. The spectral shape of a square wave is the same regardless of its base frequency. The spectrum plot of a square wave is Gausian like shaped, with the highest energy at the base frequency of the square wave, and with both the higher and lower frequency harmonics falling rapidly off on both sides. It's the sub harmonics that interest us, since they can intersect and interact with the audio band upper harmonics.

With DSD64, the carrier sub harmonics are down about -100dB at 20KHz (reference 0dB), depending on the quality of the modulator. At 100KHz, they're down to about -50db, or about the same noise level of tape, which is throughout its audio frequency bandwidth. Additionally, the carrier harmonics (sometimes characterized as noise) are uncorrelated with the modulating audio, and therefore sound (if it were possible to hear -100db at 20KHz noise) like random noise. DSD256 on the other hand, has all those frequency numbers shifted up four times; -100dB at 80KHz etc. Obviously, since none of that uncorrelated "noise" is perceivable, DAC designers used its that fact to implement more gaussian/gentler shaped reconstruction filters, with much improved phase distortions playing DSD256, or higher.

Matthias, I apologize for the long winded reply. DSD is a much misunderstood format, usually conflated with PCM with folks trying to understand it. They're completely different digitization processes, with different results. PCM is processible in a digital computer, since it's digital word value based, and has many many tools available to produce recordings. DSD is an archival format with no digital values in its 1-bit incarnation, not directly digital computer processable, and virtually no professional tools available for processing. It's also a product of carrier modulation versus sequential discrete sample measurements.

With the exception of Reference Recordings Keith Johnson's 176KHz 24 bit PCM recordings employing his designed Pacific Microsonics A/D converter, one DSD quality factor for us to understand is that ALL recordings produced in the last two decades use sigma-delta modulator front ended A/D converters to record. All these converters produce a multi level (6 level in Pro equipment) Pulse Density Modulation bit streams, which are converted on the chip or associated processor in real time to either 1-bit level DSD, or PCM. This is hardly an issue with customer appreciation/demand for the vast majority of recordings produced, with the exception of acoustic recordings rich in low level harmonics, real ambiance cues, and real dynamic range with a discerning audio quality customer base.

Thanks for reading!
Tom
Many thanks Tom for the work you put in for answering my question. I really appreciate it and I am very pleased that there is no short-cut as alternative for DSD256 and higher.
Thanks again and all the best to you :)
 
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Hi Audiocrack,

As Rush later corrected on August 14, without the benefit of WBF allowing him to amend your post directly, the Pentatone Bluebeards Castle was recorded in DXD 24 bit, the highest recording bit resolution supported by Pyramix. It was later edited/post processed in DXD 32 bit (the Pyramix default resolution for binary word length growth of mixing and post processing tracking channels) , and then truncated to DXD24 bit for delivery to NativeDSD. That is the recording product I used to produce all the other deliverables NativeDSD offers. Additionally, our relationship with Pentatone exclusively provides us with the DXD edited masters recorded by Polyhymnia.

Over the years, Pentatone has gone from all of its recordings being recorded by Polyhymnia, to now a select few, as Polyhymnia appears to have reduced its project output. Now Pentatone's releases come from a variety of recording houses, the vast majority recorded in 96k or 192k PCM. When we can obtain the edit master, we identify it.

Since I hope I have your interest, please let me provide some detail of how the deliverables are produced on NativeDSD.

With all our labels, we strive to obtain the edited master, regardless of the sampling rate. I employ Pyramix Album Publishing, the professional industry standard for format conversions, for producing the FLAC PCM 96k, 192k, 352.8k, and DSD64, 128, and 256 deliverable formats. Additionally, I use the edited master through HQP Pro to produce the DSD512 and 1024, and the PCM 768k when desired by the label.

The important point here is that all edited masters, regardless of sample rate provided, are WAV format, and are offered on the site as such. Whatever the label sends NativeDSD, that is what I upload to our delivery server for that sample or bit rate. That includes 32 bit WAV files when provided. You can always identify a PCM edit master offering on NativeDSD by it being a WAV file. For economy's and download speed's sake, a lossless FLAC is also produced.

Thank you for reading through this explanation. I hope you find it helpful.

Tom

Tom, thanks for this explanation of the process being followed at NativeDSD. All that you explain here is why I prefer getting my downloads from NativeDSD, whether 96k or DSD256. Your attention to quality is important to me.
 
AANY218.jpg

Old Friends, The Secret Trio (Ara Dinkjian, Ismail Lumanovski, Tamer Pinarbasi) [DXD 32-bit]

The wizards of Anderson Audio, NY, are at it again. This time with some really well played "World" music, all acoustic with oud, clarinet, and kanun. HERE

The album was recorded Live to Stereo and 5.1 Channel Surround Sound DXD 32 Bit at the Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music in Brooklyn, New York. Engineered by Jim Anderson and Ulrike Schwarz at Anderson Audio NY.
 
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So, speaking of Karina Canellakis and Bartok... Have you listened to her outstanding recording of Bartok's Bluebeard's Castle?



Bartók Duke Bluebeard's Castle, Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra, Karina Canellakis. Pentatone 2025 (DXD, DSD256) [Edit to correct format resolution, available from NativeDSD]

Review HERE

It is simply outstanding. I only regret that Pentatone's team here recorded in 192kHz.

(I'll not count this towards my 10 for my fictious gathering of audio friends because this is decidedly an acquired taste, unless you're just a bit nuts like me. And I'm not even fond of opera. Just Bartok.)
I like to thank you for mentioning this record. I bought it and like it very much!

Gabor Bretz in the role of the Duke is fantastic. Sinister and dangerous.

Orchestral playing is wonderful. Sonically with great dynamics and wide soundstage.
 
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Cartografía del Mar (Maps of the Sea), André Cebrián, Pedro Mateo Gonzalez. Eudora Records 2023 (Pure DSD256, Stereo, MCh)

Elegantly, delightfully simple, direct, and downright luscious -- music for flute and guitar. Released in 2023, this album reflected a further sonic step up in Gonzalo Noque's work. Two things changed over the years: 1) the addition of his Sonodore LDM-54 microphones, which are remarkable, and 2) recording in the Auditorio de San Francisco, Ávila, with its very open and supportive natural acoustic. Earlier, Gonzalo was releasing very nice recordings, but often recorded in locations with challenging acoustics (presumably a reflection of the economics of renting a hall coupled with all the other costs of production). But since this release, he has consistently recorded in much better acoustic venues, as illustrated here.

Oh, the music? Yes, indeed! André Cebrián (flute) and Pedro Mateo Gonzalez (guitar) have selected several brilliant works of the twentieth century by Astor Piazzolla (1921-1992), Mario Castelnuovo-Tedeso (1895-1968), Tōru Takemitsu (1930-1996), Robert Beaser (1954), Leo Brouwer (1939), and Felio Gasull (1959). Quite a treat!

My more complete review HERE

1756150520486.png
 
This is one of the best threads on WBF and I thank the regular contributors.

But NativeDSD files too expensive, even with their membership program.
I'd like to try many of them but $30 for a DXD album?
 
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This is one of the best threads on WBF and I thank the regular contributors.

But NativeDSD files too expensive, even with their membership program.
I'd like to try many of them but $30 for a DXD album?
Glad you're enjoying the conversations here, Kingsrule. I hope you will join in and share what ultra-high resolution recordings you're finding interesting. And pose questions!

Yes, DXD and DSD256 files are expensive, from any source. NativeDSD does offer pretty frequent sales. They announced just today the start of a 15% Off Sale. I try to provide PSA posts when I see these. From today's newsletter:

.....1756221710825.png
 
Question for the group... I was recently told about a Japanese retailer who sells DSD256 transfers made from the original Decca master tapes of some of the great classical recordings they released in the late '50s through '60s.

The name of this retailer is Stereo Sound (Japan). No downloads apparently. All via BD-ROM discs. Here's a link to one of their pages. If it shows up in Japanese, turn on your browser's translate function.

Sample Page: The Kertesz Dvorak New World Symphony

Information provided me from the enclosed booklet in the Jano Starker Bach Suites album states:
Mastering Engineers: Jonathan Stokes & Neil Hutchinson (Classic Sound Ltd UK)
General Producers: Isao Harada & Tomoyuki Harada (Stereo Sound)
Director: Hajime Someya (Stereo Sound)
Equipment: Studer A80 (Original Decca Modified Machine) > A/D Merging Technologies Horus Converters
Transferred: 2017

Ring any bells for anyone? I'm trying to get more information and a contact with the mastering engineers, if possible.
 
Musing... Please share your thoughts.

I keep puzzling about comments/questions regarding spending $30 or a bit more for a DXD or DSD256 file. I hear these comments not just here but other sites, and I've wondered.

We are now able to obtain a file that is identical to the album's edit master file for just $30-32, and yet I keep hearing from multiple audio friends that this is too expensive. They hesitate to make the purchase because of the high cost. Yet many of us over the years have easily spent that and more on a single 180gr vinyl album -- even $150 and more for a 45rpm UHQR release. And some of us will spend $450 and more for a reel-to-reel tape copy.

So, if we can now obtain the edit master file (in whatever resolution, DXD or DSD256) for $30, how is that any less worthy of my funds for a listening experience that, in many cases, is of even greater sonic quality?

Is it because it's a digital file and not physical media? Is it because it lacks the tactile, luxurious packaging of the LP? Is it because we've gotten addicted to cheap streaming and low res digital (e.g., 96k) that sells for less (because it is less)?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I'll be happy to share your comments with folks at NativeDSD who are working hard to keep their enterprise a viable, sustainable operation. I guarantee that what they are attempting is not easy.
 
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