Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Sc00ter]

I agree with your thoughts and feel very strongly that the High End Audio Industry has not only completely missed the bus but don't have a clue what a bus is. Better Audio ( just a term not a statement) is an experience and without experiencing it there is very little interest or desire to have it. I think that most people get into something through experiencing it somehow and for a variety of reasons. The marketing monsters revived a dead business ( headphones) made them small and work with a new tech , the cell phone and related toys , and sold them bigtime to the youth of the world. They did this with appeals to celebrities and athletes and made it cool. These same guys made a gigantic fortune by using a lot of money combined with serious advertising and big time stars. Beats was sold for 2 Billion dollars!
The audio Industry didn't have this vision and didn't have the funds to do it so instead they did the same thing over and over expecting different results. This course started IMO the race of more and more expensive as a way to try to differentiate itself and themselves.
We have started a new industry one I call Audio Tourism. Audio Tourism is having a show every month and trying to make it seem like its important. Instead of IMO upgrading the experience with great sound and that shows off the differences they chose lousy hotel rooms packed with at best slightly above average sound. The Industry has abandoned making and promoting entry level quality products and making them interesting to younger people who like music. They truly are clueless how to reach new markets and new enthusiasts.
I have done a lot of shows and there is very little age diversity at these events. The overwhelming number of attendees look like me. There are few under 40 0r 30, there are very few women and almost none without their husbands or boyfriends and probably only there because they are being polite .
Audio hasn't really discovered any tech outside itself. TV? Cable? Streaming? almost nothing. Curious that there is a direct connection to the people that may have interest and yet nothing but resistance and a total lack of investment to grow their names.
Yes there are some minor exceptions that mostly market to the same people that will read this forum. Again what truly does that do?
Lower prices come from volume and scale there is none in audio that's why this OG even started .

There might be a little more age diversity at shows if the music that audio manufacturers use to showcase their products had some appeal to a younger audience. Classical music, jazz and seventies-era oldies don’t cut it, and an age group that listens primarily to music created in a mixing booth doesn’t care about “natural” sound or recreating the ambiance of an orchestral music hall. I think we’ve lost sight of what appealed to us when we were young and just starting out in the hobby.

 

[Kingrex]

Thats the whole point of the audio hobby /keeps you busy.

I can perfectly like music and not like dgital much .
Digital is just a medium , music is music

I see the point of audio as enjoying music and to some degree, enjoying the equipment made to play it back. When I got back into audio and bought a stereo, I never had the intent of getting on some merry go round of upgrade itus. I only wanted a stereo to play music on.

I was one of the first people getting the hot rodded Mac Mini/PC by Mojo Audio and streaming Spotify. It was GREAT. I loved it. So much music. So much to enjoy. Sounded amazing. It was a Fd up Rega Amplifier that sent me seeking answers to mechanical humming I could hear in the next room. If that product was not flawed by the manufacturer, I would most likely have never gone the path I went.

Then I met Joe Pitman - RIP - and he introduced me to Jazdoc and from there Mike L. That put me in a seat where stereo equipment is viewed like a sports car. Again, not something I was looking for. But I am a hobbyist and like nice things, so It was easy to fall into a cycle. One I am still in with cars as I look for a replacement for my wife's Porsche.

I guess if you want to say you don't like digital, I can, and have many times said, I don't like SS amplification and Wilson/Magico type speakers. They have a sound. I would never buy a stereo of that type. Not unless it was a small integrated amp with a bookshelf that was going in the living room for general background music my wife and I could enjoy during the day. In my opinion, a good stereo does not voice that way. It voices like tube amps powering open baffle, planer/electrostatic or horns.

What does that have to do with digital music. It merely notes I understand the sentiment of having a preference for a type of sound. But there is a stark difference between a source, and all other parts of the chain that make music. A source stores or streams data. Nothing else does this. A source holds the key to the music. It provides the content to be played. If one is to say one has a preference for a amp, or preamp, or speaker, or TT, so what. Its just something that makes sound. But the source is special. If one were to say they did not like digital. And because of that dislike, avoided that source, and because of that, severely limited ones access to music, the person is missing out on the most important part of audio. My mom calls it, cutting off ones nose to spite their face. I believe you are missing out on the most important part of the hobby. Without digital, your stuck with a limited catalog of music and missing out on an incredible variety of artist that may be creating content that is just what you like. But you will never know. Thats unfortunate.

 

[Al M.]

I see the point of audio as enjoying music and to some degree, enjoying the equipment made to play it back. When I got back into audio and bought a stereo, I never had the intent of getting on some merry go round of upgrade itus. I only wanted a stereo to play music on.

I was one of the first people getting the hot rodded Mac Mini/PC by Mojo Audio and streaming Spotify. It was GREAT. I loved it. So much music. So much to enjoy. Sounded amazing. It was a Fd up Rega Amplifier that sent me seeking answers to mechanical humming I could hear in the next room. If that product was not flawed by the manufacturer, I would most likely have never gone the path I went.

Then I met Joe Pitman - RIP - and he introduced me to Jazdoc and from there Mike L. That put me in a seat where stereo equipment is viewed like a sports car. Again, not something I was looking for. But I am a hobbyist and like nice things, so It was easy to fall into a cycle. One I am still in with cars as I look for a replacement for my wife's Porsche.

I guess if you want to say you don't like digital, I can, and have many times said, I don't like SS amplification and Wilson/Magico type speakers. They have a sound. I would never buy a stereo of that type. Not unless it was a small integrated amp with a bookshelf that was going in the living room for general background music my wife and I could enjoy during the day. In my opinion, a good stereo does not voice that way. It voices like tube amps powering open baffle, planer/electrostatic or horns.

What does that have to do with digital music. It merely notes I understand the sentiment of having a preference for a type of sound. But there is a stark difference between a source, and all other parts of the chain that make music. A source stores or streams data. Nothing else does this. A source holds the key to the music. It provides the content to be played. If one is to say one has a preference for a amp, or preamp, or speaker, or TT, so what. Its just something that makes sound. But the source is special. If one were to say they did not like digital. And because of that dislike, avoided that source, and because of that, severely limited ones access to music, the person is missing out on the most important part of audio. My mom calls it, cutting off ones nose to spite their face. I believe you are missing out on the most important part of the hobby. Without digital, your stuck with a limited catalog of music and missing out on an incredible variety of artist that may be creating content that is just what you like. But you will never know. Thats unfortunate.

Thanks for sharing your story.

That is one of the two main reasons why I found vinyl as a sole source unacceptable: Access to all the music that interests me. (Analog tape? Even less choice of music.)

The other main reason were clicks and pops which drove me nuts in my teens and twenties and probably would drive me nuts on my own system now (curiously I don't mind them on friends' systems and enjoy vinyl there). Yes, you can reduce them with modern record cleaning machines but not eliminate them.

I did *not* choose digital for the convenience, and have no problem with the inconvenience of vinyl. On the contrary, it has its charm.

I also did *not* choose digital for sonics when I started with it in the Nineties. The two main reasons cited were why I went for digital. I knew that back then vinyl sounded better. I had always been critical of the sound of digital until a few years ago.

Yet now I don't think vinyl has an advantage anymore, which is even less of a reason for me to get into vinyl, even as a secondary source. In fact, now you can sell me digital on the basis of sound quality. It has become that good. I am super happy with my digital (for details, see my signature).

 

[Kingrex]

Thanks for sharing your story.

That is one of the two main reasons why I found vinyl as a sole source unacceptable: Access to all the music that interests me. (Analog tape? Even less choice of music.)

The other main reason were clicks and pops which drove me nuts in my teens and twenties and probably would drive me nuts on my own system now (curiously I don't mind them on friends' systems and enjoy vinyl there). Yes, you can reduce them with modern record cleaning machines but not eliminate them.

I did *not* choose digital for the convenience, and have no problem with the inconvenience of vinyl. On the contrary, it has its charm.

I also did *not* choose digital for sonics when I started with it in the Nineties. The two main reasons cited were why I went for digital. I knew that back then vinyl sounded better. I had always been critical of the sound of digital until a few years ago.

Yet now I don't think vinyl has an advantage anymore, which is even less of a reason for me to get into vinyl, even as a secondary source. In fact, now you can sell me digital on the basis of sound quality. It has become that good. I am super happy with my digital (for details, see my signature).

I like the sound of much of what I hear on digital. Do I prefer my classical 15 ips tapes. Yes. Are my rock tapes better on tape. Yes. But there is so much music I don't have on tape. And I really like Simon and Garfunkel, Neil Young, Eric Clapton and many others on digital. I finished a tape session with Billy Joel and Steely Dan, then did a quick compare of Aja with digital and tape. The tape is better. But as soon as I moved on to digital and put S&G - Bridge Over Trouble Water On, I was hooked into the song. There was no assessing the quality of the sound. Because the playback was FANTASTIC. There is nothing wrong with digital. When I was using the original Mojo Audio computer that was really a simple PC with a bunch of LPS feeding the board and a SPDIF cable to my DAC, using Spotify, I was in heaven. It was as good or better than the Rega RP6 with the Allnic H1201 phono pre on most any material.

As Bonzo always says, it comes down to the source material. Is it recorded and mastered properly, then placed on a media properly. There is a lot of material on Digital that has been handled well. Just like 70% of my records can go to the dump. 30% are keepers.

Had to edit to add this. My digital is being served up to my room by a EERO Mesh router. Imagin that. In the room I have 2 switch between the router and server. A cheap Belkin, then a audio grade switch. Just generic Cat 6 cables tying it all together. All that equipment is plugged into a power strip that is plugged into a Torus. All the digital parts are sitting on top of a Akiko Corelli that is also plugged into the power strip.

 

[Sc00ter]

I like the sound of much of what I hear on digital. Do I prefer my classical 15 ips tapes. Yes. Are my rock tapes better on tape. Yes. But there is so much music I don't have on tape. And I really like Simon and Garfunkel, Neil Young, Eric Clapton and many others on digital. I finished a tape session with Billy Joel and Steely Dan, then did a quick compare of Aja with digital and tape. The tape is better. But as soon as I moved on to digital and put S&G - Bridge Over Trouble Water On, I was hooked into the song. There was no assessing the quality of the sound. Because the playback was FANTASTIC. There is nothing wrong with digital. When I was using the original Mojo Audio computer that was really a simple PC with a bunch of LPS feeding the board and a SPDIF cable to my DAC, using Spotify, I was in heaven. It was as good or better than the Rega RP6 with the Allnic H1201 phono pre on most any material.

As Bonzo always says, it comes down to the source material. Is it recorded and mastered properly, then placed on a media properly. There is a lot of material on Digital that has been handled well. Just like 70% of my records can go to the dump. 30% are keepers.

Had to edit to add this. My digital is being served up to my room by a EERO Mesh router. Imagin that. In the room I have 2 switch between the router and server. A cheap Belkin, then an audio grade switch. Just generic Cat 6 cables tying it all together. All that equipment is plugged into a power strip that is plugged into a Torus. All the digital parts are sitting on top of a Akiko Corelli that is also plugged into the power strip.

I think it comes down to source material AND equipment quality. When CDs first came out in the eighties, on my equipment vinyl was superior in sound quality to CDs. Jump ahead to now, I’d have to say that well-produced CDs played through my Marantz SA8001 SACD player are definitely the equal of vinyl records played through my decent-quality (but not state of the art) Lenco turntable, OL1 tonearm and Zu Audio DL103 MC cartridge. Now that my equipment’s gotten better, and CDs are better engineered than the overly bright 1980s mixes we all hated, the convenience of a CD will often win out over having to stand up, choose a record, take the lid off my turntable, remove the record from its sleeve, clean it, find the track I want to listen to, lift the tonearm and place the needle on the record. That’s much more effort than using the remote to play the same song on a CD, with no greater gratification (getting up every 20-25 minutes to flip the record over gets old, too).
At this point, when new recordings come out that I want, I invariably go with the CD if it’s available.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I ll be hearing another endless stream of " perfect " digital in munich .
For the real music experience i ll go to FM acoustics ( i hope he shows with the big system )

That will then be the " best of show" already on the first day

 

[Lagonda]

I see the point of audio as enjoying music and to some degree, enjoying the equipment made to play it back. When I got back into audio and bought a stereo, I never had the intent of getting on some merry go round of upgrade itus. I only wanted a stereo to play music on.

I was one of the first people getting the hot rodded Mac Mini/PC by Mojo Audio and streaming Spotify. It was GREAT. I loved it. So much music. So much to enjoy. Sounded amazing. It was a Fd up Rega Amplifier that sent me seeking answers to mechanical humming I could hear in the next room. If that product was not flawed by the manufacturer, I would most likely have never gone the path I went.

Then I met Joe Pitman - RIP - and he introduced me to Jazdoc and from there Mike L. That put me in a seat where stereo equipment is viewed like a sports car. Again, not something I was looking for. But I am a hobbyist and like nice things, so It was easy to fall into a cycle. One I am still in with cars as I look for a replacement for my wife's Porsche.

I guess if you want to say you don't like digital, I can, and have many times said, I don't like SS amplification and Wilson/Magico type speakers. They have a sound. I would never buy a stereo of that type. Not unless it was a small integrated amp with a bookshelf that was going in the living room for general background music my wife and I could enjoy during the day. In my opinion, a good stereo does not voice that way. It voices like tube amps powering open baffle, planer/electrostatic or horns.

What does that have to do with digital music. It merely notes I understand the sentiment of having a preference for a type of sound. But there is a stark difference between a source, and all other parts of the chain that make music. A source stores or streams data. Nothing else does this. A source holds the key to the music. It provides the content to be played. If one is to say one has a preference for a amp, or preamp, or speaker, or TT, so what. Its just something that makes sound. But the source is special. If one were to say they did not like digital. And because of that dislike, avoided that source, and because of that, severely limited ones access to music, the person is missing out on the most important part of audio. My mom calls it, cutting off ones nose to spite their face. I believe you are missing out on the most important part of the hobby. Without digital, your stuck with a limited catalog of music and missing out on an incredible variety of artist that may be creating content that is just what you like. But you will never know. Thats unfortunate.

Of the music i like, most was recorded analog and is available on vinyl. With a couple of thousand records i really don't have the time to listen to all the music i own and like, in the about 15 hours a week i have available for this hobby. I buy new albums from my favorite artist when they are issued, and rarely listen to the thousands of CD's i also own. Some albums are only issued on CD or streaming and i rarely listen to them, good analog just gives me more listening pleasure. A lot of people use mainly digital and need tube amps to make it sound good, i understand that the smearing and extra coloration is needed in such systems to enhance the listening pleasure. With good analog i prefer the honesty of good SS amps, i don't mind hearing when the recording is not fantastic as long as i still enjoy the music.

 

[bonzo75]

Of the music i like, most was recorded analog and is available on vinyl. With a couple of thousand records i really don't have the time to listen to all the music i own and like, in the about 15 hours a week i have available for this hobby. I buy new albums from my favorite artist when they are issued, and rarely listen to the thousands of CD's i also own. Some albums are only issued on CD or streaming and i rarely listen to them, good analog just gives me more listening pleasure. A lot of people use mainly digital and need tube amps to make it sound good, i understand that the smearing and extra coloration is needed in such systems to enhance the listening pleasure. With good analog i prefer the honesty of good SS amps, i don't mind hearing when the recording is not fantastic as long as i still enjoy the music.

You are partially right on the tube amps. That is what big push pull amps like VTL, CJ, Arc do so you mostly see them with digital folks and/or speakers like Wilson and Magico or planar

If you look at high efficiency owners, they will have lots of analog with low watt amps that are way more transparent to recordings than any SS amp like Boulder, spectral, etc

It is not just valve or SS but low watt amps have simple circuits

 

[microstrip]

(...) I did *not* choose digital for the convenience, and have no problem with the inconvenience of vinyl. On the contrary, it has its charm. (...)

Yes, vinyl has a lot of appeal to people - it is why people buy enormous quantities of cheap turntables of dubious performance to listen to recent vinyl. Surely vinyl can be "inconvenient" for fanatic audiophiles - but we can listen to it with great quality in simple high performance systems - fortunately some designers think about simplicity when creating equipment. For me the unsurpassed problem is the non existence of the music I want to listen in vinyl.

 

[Al M.]

For me the unsurpassed problem is the non existence of the music I want to listen in vinyl.

Same here.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes, vinyl has a lot of appeal to people

I was surprised to see vinyl in the Walmart in Ohio.
Looking at the posture of a lot of shoppers convenience is key in the US lol.
I would recommend for them to place the TT as far away from the listening chair as possible to get at least some excersize

 

[PeterA]

Same here.

I don’t doubt you Al, but you did just buy a CD of an analog recording you heard at my house on vinyl. So at least in one case, the music you enjoy is available on vinyl. It is not “non-existent” on vinyl, just not very prevalent.

 

[Al M.]

I don’t doubt you Al, but you did just buy a CD of an analog recording you heard at my house on vinyl. So at least in one case, the music you enjoy is available on vinyl. It is not “non-existent” on vinyl, just not very prevalent.

Correct, and I love the recording! Thanks for introducing me to it, Peter.

No, many recordings that I have are also available on vinyl. Yet some to me critical kinds of music, such as many contemporary classical compositions, are only available on digital. As are of course many modern performances of classical pieces.

This is the recording Peter and I are talking about:

 

[tima]

The Lyrita label sounds much better on LP than on CD.

 

[tima]

I am super happy with my digital

As you have told us incessantly for years. The need to repeat sounds more like self-reassurance.
I remember Tang's thoughts on this.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Yet some to me critical kinds of music, such as many contemporary classical compositions, are only available on digital. As are of course many modern performances of classical pieces. (...)

Yes, for me modern performances are one important reason. For some decades ago I listened mainly to the famous conductors of the 60s and 70's - great performances and recordings, without doubt. But I need fresh versions of these pieces - and enjoy reading current music magazines and critics, selecting what I will listen next.

 

[Al M.]

As you have told us incessantly for years. The need to repeat sounds more like self-reassurance.
I remember Tang's thoughts on this.

No, it's enthusiasm, not self-reassurance. If it were the latter I would not have criticized digital in the past for a long time.

Yeah, I remember Tang's thoughts on my enthusiasm in general. Hehe.

 

[microstrip]

The Lyrita label sounds much better on LP than on CD.

At some time I digged in british composers music - not so much anymore.

 

[Kingrex]

I agree with your thoughts and feel very strongly that the High End Audio Industry has not only completely missed the bus but don't have a clue what a bus is. Better Audio ( just a term not a statement) is an experience and without experiencing it there is very little interest or desire to have it. I think that most people get into something through experiencing it somehow and for a variety of reasons. The marketing monsters revived a dead business ( headphones) made them small and work with a new tech , the cell phone and related toys , and sold them bigtime to the youth of the world. They did this with appeals to celebrities and athletes and made it cool. These same guys made a gigantic fortune by using a lot of money combined with serious advertising and big time stars. Beats was sold for 2 Billion dollars!
The audio Industry didn't have this vision and didn't have the funds to do it so instead they did the same thing over and over expecting different results. This course started IMO the race of more and more expensive as a way to try to differentiate itself and themselves.
We have started a new industry one I call Audio Tourism. Audio Tourism is having a show every month and trying to make it seem like its important. Instead of IMO upgrading the experience with great sound and that shows off the differences they chose lousy hotel rooms packed with at best slightly above average sound. The Industry has abandoned making and promoting entry level quality products and making them interesting to younger people who like music. They truly are clueless how to reach new markets and new enthusiasts.
I have done a lot of shows and there is very little age diversity at these events. The overwhelming number of attendees look like me. There are few under 40 0r 30, there are very few women and almost none without their husbands or boyfriends and probably only there because they are being polite .
Audio hasn't really discovered any tech outside itself. TV? Cable? Streaming? almost nothing. Curious that there is a direct connection to the people that may have interest and yet nothing but resistance and a total lack of investment to grow their names.
Yes there are some minor exceptions that mostly market to the same people that will read this forum. Again what truly does that do?
Lower prices come from volume and scale there is none in audio that's why this OG even started .

I agree to part of what you say. But you contradicted yourself.

There is a pretty vibrant and strong market of low cost, high quality audio equipment. Even a Fosi integrated amp for $89 with 2 x Sparko Opamps that are $129 a piece makes for a fantastic 100 watt amp. And that Fosi accepts bluetooth from a phone and plays very good music. Good enough Jays Audiolab was looking around for the Gryphon or Boulder amp in a recent video. Only to find it was a tiny less than $300 Class D Darko amp.

Beats Sold for $2B. Thats a $79 to $300 headphone. Headphones are part of Audiophilia. Big market. The smart players are in it. And making a killing.

Even at the shows, there are more and more small manufacturer that are showing complete packages under $10,000. Now that is still huge money to most people. Even Sonos gets high on their price to value proposition.

The name is alluding me at the moment, but I bought my mom a set of self powered speakers designed to sit on a shelf and stream direct to them or take a RCA. $350. They were at the PAF last year. They were set in a room on a stand. With or without a Sub. Fantastic sound. As good as anyone who just wanted to listen to music could want. With a sub, less than $1,000 compete. Hook a Rega Planer 1 to it and you have a wonderful TT based stereo for the masses. And it may actually sound better than some audiophiles systems that are not set up correctly.

A lot of people use mainly digital and need tube amps to make it sound good, i understand that the smearing and extra coloration is needed in such systems to enhance the listening pleasure. With good analog i prefer the honesty of good SS amps, i don't mind hearing when the recording is not fantastic as long as i still enjoy the music.

I hear SS amps as enhancing/coloring the bass. Thats part of why I don't like most SS/dynamic driver systems. A good tube amp such as I have is faster and sounds more like a snare, horn, piano or violin. I have tighter, faster bottom end. SS has more power, but it comes with a sound of its own. SS sounds sort of digital like to me. Vinyl is necessary to add back the natural flavor. So, again, were back to liking something for the distortions it is adding.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, for me modern performances are one important reason. For some decades ago I listened mainly to the famous conductors of the 60s and 70's - great performances and recordings, without doubt. But I need fresh versions of these pieces - and enjoy reading current music magazines and critics, selecting what I will listen next.

Sorry, you have not heard many famous conductors based on your posting record. There is no point simply stating that to win an argument. When people listen to such performances and recordings, it shows in their posts, they don’t have to state it. Also, you are on record on this forum as not knowing how to look up the version of a Karajan LP on Discogs…how would you then pick up the right versions of recordings.

Of course, we all remember Blizzard stating he had heard a lot of gear. Might be similar.