Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[wil]

The biggest psychological difference between recorded music and live music/performance is that with recorded music you know what you’re going to get, whereas with a live performance every time is a surprise. You just don’t know what’s going to happen. I may know the performer, dancer, singer, choreographer or whatever, and have some idea what to expect, but most of the anticipation is because you just don’t know what’s going to happen.

Yesterday was the unveiling to London audiences of a new star on the pianistic firmament by his teacher, one of the world’s leading pianists, playing a piece of music few people in the audience had probably ever heard. It was magnificent. Tonight, Marienela Nunez, one of the world’s greatest dancers, made a wrong step, and she was spooked, something I can never remember her doing before.

Another difference is that after playing a record, you probably rarely get to go out to a nice cocktail bar and reflect on the experience.
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ssfas,
Have you considered all the hifi gear and other dodads you could have purchased with the money spend on these live concerts?

The tragedy of it all…

But, truth told, I admire the music/dance lifestyle you’ve chosen. Rich experiences. And you live in an epicenter of great performances.

Maybe I should get out more, but I kind of like the simplicity of sauntering over to the music room whenever I want. And sometimes for me, live music is disappointing. Most recently, the Nashville symphony butchered a Prokofiev violin concerto ( from our seats anyway). The violin sound was throttled swallowed by the orchestra.

I just heard a recording of the same concerto and it was a far better musical experience.

 

[Ron Resnick]

May I draw a distinction between live classical concerts and live rock/pop concerts?

I very much enjoy going to live classical concerts. Yet 80% plus of my listening is perfectly bog standard 1970s and 1980s rock and pop.

My father, who worked in the record business all of his life, took me to loads of rock and pop concerts at Madison Square Garden and at Radio City Music Hall as I was growing up. I remember enjoying them.

Today the thought of going to hear the Eagles perform in some gigantic venue looking at a big screen with deafening amplified volume is very unappealing to me. (The only live rock/popcorn concerts I enjoy going to these days are at clubs or at converted movie theater venues.)

These days I truly would rather listen to rock and pop on my stereo playing DCC Compact Classics re-issues than in some gigantic venue while battling deafness. So, for me, high-end audio equipment is worth the money.

 

[Al M.]

May I draw a distinction between live classical concerts and live rock/pop concerts?

I very much enjoy going to live classical concerts. Yet 80% plus of my listening is perfectly bog standard 1970s and 1980s rock and pop.

My father, who worked in the record business all of his life, took me to loads of rock and pop concerts at Madison Square Garden and at Radio City Music Hall as I was growing up. I remember enjoying them.

Today the thought of going to hear the Eagles perform in some gigantic venue looking at a big screen with deafening amplified volume is very unappealing to me. (The only live rock/popcorn concerts I enjoy going to these days are at clubs or at converted movie theater venues.)

These days I truly would rather listen to rock and pop on my stereo playing DCC Compact Classics re-issues than in some gigantic venue while battling deafness. So, for me, high-end audio equipment is worth the money.

Good point about rock concerts, Ron. Nobody is going to schlep me to another ear-deafening rock concert. Not worth the experience, not worth the ear damage.

I am trying to be careful about my ears in general. My recent Mahler Symphony 6 concert was in the afternoon. I knew it was going to be very loud in the climaxes (it was) and I decided not to listen to music in the morning, in order not to exceed too much the daily dB/duration allowance. After the concert I did not listen to music anymore that day anyway (and thankfully, the concert was not as loud as to cause any ear ringing).

 

[Robh3606]

These days I truly would rather listen to rock and pop on my stereo playing DCC Compact Classics re-issues than in some gigantic venue while battling deafness. So, for me, high-end audio equipment is worth the money.

Surprised you don't use ear protection. I use them all the time and carry a pair with me when I go out to hear any form of live music. Unfortunately I typically end up using them as the culture seems to like screaming over the music to have a conversation

Rob

Passive Hearing Protection - Etymotic

Offering innovative passive hearing protection products is one of the things we are known for at Etymotic.

www.etymotic.com

 

[Al M.]

Surprised you don't use ear protection. I use them all the time and carry a pair with me when I go out to hear any form of live music. Unfortunately I typically end up using them as the culture seems to like screaming over the music to have a conversation

Rob

Passive Hearing Protection - Etymotic

Offering innovative passive hearing protection products is one of the things we are known for at Etymotic.

www.etymotic.com

Yes, I have worn Etymotic ear protection, very good and useful, and unlike normal earplugs they don't muffle the frequency spectrum too much. Yet not rarely the music in a rock concert is so outrageously loud that even with tightly fitting ear Etymotics healthy exposure levels are exceeded -- by a substantial amount.

Not wearing them in such a situation is disaster, for sure, but the help is limited.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Surprised you don't use ear protection. I use them all the time and carry a pair with me when I go out to hear any form of live music. Unfortunately I typically end up using them as the culture seems to like screaming over the music to have a conversation

Rob

Passive Hearing Protection - Etymotic

Offering innovative passive hearing protection products is one of the things we are known for at Etymotic.

www.etymotic.com

You are assuming I don't use ear protection. Unfortunately I did not use ear protection growing up.

But I always use ear protection today. When we went to see Franz Ferdinand with Don Saltzman at The Wiltern last Saturday Tinka and I used silicone earplugs to be able to enjoy the concert.

 

[PeterA]

Haven’t been to a live rock concert in years. Sounds like I’m missing a lot of fun. Sorry, what was that?

 

[Robh3606]

YOUR MISSING A LOT OF FUN!

Rob

 

[AudioHR]

When we talk about audio it means we talk about passion/love. I think audiophiles love this hobby and it is simple to understand that why they pay extra for this love/passion. For many reasons the High end audio is expensive and No one think $50k 1meter interconnect is worth the money but we pay for it because we love it. Many times the sound upgrade is minor but when you think about next expensive upgrade you can not resist.

About the sound and getting better sound I think if you know what dynamic means (and how important is dynamic) then three parameters are the necessary conditions for good sound before any equipment upgrade.

1- Speaker placement (call Stirling Trayle)
2- Main AC power quality
3- Amplifier / Speaker matching (both drive and sound)

If you do perfectly these three condition then you unlocked the audio and spending more money for better audio equipment (I think many expensive audio equipments are not good and very few audio equipments are good in this industry) worth the money.

If you have problem in these three parameters then spending more money is not good.

Amir I follow what you are saying. Except your comment on very few audio equipments being good. Value for money which is a personal thing is the issue. Poorly designed or made equipment does not last in the market for long I would expect.

 

[Robh3606]

You are assuming I don't use ear protection. Unfortunately I did not use ear protection growing up.

Hello Ron

Yeah I learned my lesson the hard way going to a show. I didn't do my hearing any good so after that I started using them. Even in bars between the jukebox and people trying to talk over it and each other it can get too loud for me. I don't how many times I have them in and get asked "You working security? Conversation starter and definitely helps!

I have a group of friends we go to see live shows and most of them don't use them. Some like to dance in the "kill zone" it amazes me they are not deaf.

Rob

 

[AudioHR]

I don't think you were shouting, just talking very loudly.

From what I understand, "High End Audio" is a marketing term made up by a chap called Harry Pearson to flog expensive gear through some magazine he ran. (I'm in the UK, I hear his name mentioned, no idea who he is.) If people look for expensive hifi and it makes them happy, it's worth it to them. It's a self-fulfilling system.

Some independent observers think the more expensive it is, the happier they will feel.

Others may question those values, well it's none of their goddammmn business (as I've heard it said).

I think you don't know what you are talking about as far as Harry Pearson and the original "Absolute Sound" publication. Great writing, passionate opinions and definitely not aimed at supporting the status quo of the time. Expense was not the main part of the equation it either sounded musically realistic to the reviewers or it didn't.

Today's audio magazines pale in comparison to the early "Absolute Sound" and Holt's "Stereophile" in my opinion. While there are still some excellent and entertaining writers the magazines today are more about promoting the industry. Not that there is anything wrong with that just don't expect any critical reviews.

 

[AudioHR]

If only!

There is a way to determine if the high end is worth the price or not … require all distributors at audio shows to play the exact same music.

Say every room is playing Buena Vista Social Club, vinyl or CD. One could go from room to room and rate each sound (what sounds best to you) and then place them in order, your favourite to least favourite with prices listed. Then it would be easy to find the system which sounds best in your price range (which might actually sound better than others costing much more).

Every room would have to be the same and the volume- SPL regulated.

 

[Al M.]

If only!

There is a way to determine if the high end is worth the price or not … require all distributors at audio shows to play the exact same music.

Say every room is playing Buena Vista Social Club, vinyl or CD. One could go from room to room and rate each sound (what sounds best to you) and then place them in order, your favourite to least favourite with prices listed. Then it would be easy to find the system which sounds best in your price range (which might actually sound better than others costing much more).

Except that sound at shows isn't worth to judge, because most of it is worthless. With a few exceptions.

If you want to judge stereos you have to listen to well set up home systems, assembled over years. Second best -- mostly at a distance -- are setups at competent dealers. Of which there are few, unfortunately.

 

[AudioHR]

What if the designers intentions were novel but his skill set was not good?
Not everyone can do it no matter what they want to attempt .
Intentions and feelings don’t trump facts and results

True! Hopefully the novel idea gets picked up by someone who can execute what was intended.

 

[Amir]

Amir I follow what you are saying. Except your comment on very few audio equipments being good. Value for money which is a personal thing is the issue. Poorly designed or made equipment does not last in the market for long I would expect.

I can describe more, yes there are many high quality expensive products in this market but Very few companies produce musical sound.
for example in this industry very few modern speakers are dynamic.

 

[PYP]

I have a group of friends we go to see live shows and most of them don't use them. Some like to dance in the "kill zone" it amazes me they are not deaf.

Rob

No one escapes degradation of the high frequency hearing over time if exposed regularly to this level, I believe.

Custom ear protection is definitely the way to help protect hearing. Can you hear me now?

 

[microstrip]

IMO in order to debate the value of something we must analyze it. This hobby has two aspects - the objective and the subjective. Everything that is objective can be directly discussed and easily evaluated. The subjective part is much harder to access - although science properly studies the subjective, such as in the case of perceptual sciences, the validation must be carried statistically - we get a result, but just a probability with error bars. In high-end the number of individuals is so small that we can't extract valid data on the more relevant subjective results on preference and its value.

Taking this in account high-end value can be an impossible challenge. First because it is an hobby - hobbies are extremely hard to valuate - it is hard to find solid rigid criteria to to establish the boundaries of reasonability for such activities that involves our free time and mostly our enjoyment. Second because in spite of the technological developments and better knowledge of psychoacoustics we have not reached stagnation on stereo - new and better products will surely be developed. And third because it is a subjective hobby and in purely subjective matters any listener can be simultaneously the defendant, the jury and the judge, bypassing the lawyers, even those who are frequent concert goers ...

Just to say that IMO the only answer to is "High End Audio Gear Worth the Money" depends on who owns it and how he enjoys it. And if we accept that ANY type or piece of high-end high-price gear is worth the high price we are saying Yes, High End Audio Gear is Worth the Money, even if we are no believers in tweaks, cables or fuses ...

 

[PYP]

If I lived in the centre of London. Paris or New York, and had the time and money, I’d just go to live shows. I suppose access to live music must play a part in how much people spend to reproduce it, but it’s never very close to the real thing.

It is a factor for me. I can get greater fidelity at home. And if one's location does not have a good venue, it also does not attract the best talent. New York City was a cornucopia (music, dance, theater, museums, architecture, food, fashion and trends of all kinds).

It is fine, however. I control the volume and schedule. I can stream favorites or let the algorithms serve up surprises (both good and bad). No travel. No crowds.

 

[ssfas]

ssfas,
Have you considered all the hifi gear and other dodads you could have purchased with the money spend on these live concerts?

The tragedy of it all…

But, truth told, I admire the music/dance lifestyle you’ve chosen. Rich experiences. And you live in an epicenter of great performances.

Maybe I should get out more, but I kind of like the simplicity of sauntering over to the music room whenever I want. And sometimes for me, live music is disappointing. Most recently, the Nashville symphony butchered a Prokofiev violin concerto ( from our seats anyway). The violin sound was throttled swallowed by the orchestra.

I just heard a recording of the same concerto and it was a far better musical experience.

 

[ssfas]

ssfas,
Have you considered all the hifi gear and other dodads you could have purchased with the money spend on these live concerts?

The tragedy of it all…

But, truth told, I admire the music/dance lifestyle you’ve chosen. Rich experiences. And you live in an epicenter of great performances.

Maybe I should get out more, but I kind of like the simplicity of sauntering over to the music room whenever I want. And sometimes for me, live music is disappointing. Most recently, the Nashville symphony butchered a Prokofiev violin concerto ( from our seats anyway). The violin sound was throttled swallowed by the orchestra.

I just heard a recording of the same concerto and it was a far better musical experience.

Quite the opposite. When I buy hifi I think how many tickets and music trips it would pay for.

I've always been to a fair amount of live music. The earliest I can remember, I was 13, was Genesis, Lamb Lies Down on Broadway tour at the Hammersmith Odeon in 1975. In those days it wasn't stadium tours. I saw Elton John in 1979, when he was one of the biggest stars on the planet, with Ray Cooper at the Theatre Royal Drury Lane, a superb 2,000 seater. I recall it was an acoustic set. You could relate it to a recording.

I don't relate live rock music to recordings. Genesis Seconds Out is meant to be one of the best live rock albums closest to the album, but it is a composite from mostly smaller UK venues and most of the vocals were overdubbed. I also remember the Trick of the Tail concert at Hammersmith I think Chester Thompson and Bill Bruford on percussion.

I've been to very few rock concerts since the 1980s, but I still listen to some rock music and I just don't relate studio recordings sonically to the live performance. For example, Radiohead albums are quite intimate in a way, whereas in a 25,000 seat indoor arena the sound is visceral. My kids were into Coldplay and we went to see them in an 80,000 seat stadium, but one of my favourite gigs was Chris Martin and Johnny Buckland doing an acoustic gig for 300 people, neither of which bore much relation to the recorded sound.

A good example of bad live sound is this concert. The sound was so bad (at Union Chapel, Islington) we left before the end. Somehow they made an album out of it.


My wife also heard a lot of live music, originally in Belgium, but she studied in New York, mostly with Martha Graham, and got free tickets to lots of dance and to the Met, and got to see Pavarotti in his prime.

So whilst I can't relate rock music live to recorded, and I never listen to ballet and opera at home as it only works for me live, chamber music does work for me on a decent stereo when you can hear the natural acoustic and the instrumental tone sounds accurate. However, my preference is always for musicians I've heard live and can relate to directly.

I suspect hifi is worth the money the closer you think it gets you to live music. As I probably think it is less capable of doing so than some people here think, I don't think massive expenditure is worth my while. I still have a perfectly good system in a room that works very well.