System Upgrade - Report and Feedback

[Peter Bomberg]

I have promised several of you an update on my journey and my thoughts on the MSB audition (and outcomes). I will do so in in installments as I have time (seems to be something I am perpetually short on). I am not sure how many installments but I figure:

1) Background
2) Research & Short List
3) Feedback & Scope Creep
4) Audition
5) Outcome
6) Installation & Initial Setup
7) A month later

Of course the aim of this post is to share with people that have contributed to the journey and in the decision process, so please ask away and I will do my best to reply.

1) Background
We bought a new house (to us) in 2022, the house was built in 2019, we moved in 2023. The house is generally open concept as you can see in the floor plan.
My main speakers until then had been a pair of ProAC Response 2.5, they are driven by a Classe CAP-151, the source is a Bluesound Node connected to a Wyred 4 Sound DAC with Nordost cables and a REL T5, while the system is enjoyable and worked in our old house as the rooms were very small I felt and upgrade was required to handle the significantly larger space.

I have always enjoyed B&W's detailed and crystal clear sound, and my wife really loves the fit and finish and esthetics of the 805 D4 so after listening to a bunch of systems we found one that looks great and sounds pretty good in the space. I ended up getting a pair or 805 D4's powered by a NAD M33 via Kimber Cable TC-12 and I upgraded the REL's to T/7x, all I can say is it sounded awful! But that was not terribly unexpected the 805s needed a bit of TLC to work in this space which I knew would be the case, which is why I chose the NAD M33, one SW upgrade later to get the full frequency version of DIRAC Live and the tweaking began. I will post the native vs. tweaked curves when I get a chance but the result was pretty decent, not amazing but clear, large sound stage, precise and musical.

Now a segway, in my view everything in life is a compromise, the stereo is a balance between sound quality, enjoyment, esthetics, ability to enjoy music but also the ability to enjoy life (travel, food, security, time outside, hiking, etc.). This view is central to my stereo journey so please keep it in mind when we get to the Research installment.

Ok many days/months later that nagging feeling something isn't right just kept growing and the issue was on the low frequency side (to be honest the 805's do a great job in the high frequency range and they are not bad at the mids either, in a smaller space I think they will be fine for the full spectrum but in my space I found them lacking. No worries a pair REL S/812's to the rescue, well no they actually completely broke my system.

They absolutely provided the low end I was looking for, they are simply fantastic subs BUT they are too large to be placed in the ideal spot so REL Airships got installed, the Subs moved to the opposite wall and that problem was solved.




Ok, back to tweaking, more movement, more tweaking, more DIRAC curves, and so on for 2+ weeks until I finally gave up. This combination simply isn't doing it for me. The issue for me is there is a dip that I simply can't get rid with the setup I have, I might be able to if I run the subs of the M33 sub output not of the speakers as REL recommends. I might if I painstakingly manually tweak the DIRAC curve one tiny bit at the time but I don't have the time or energy too. The REL S/812 simply overpowers the 805 in a couple spots, I can move the cross over and the amplification and the DIRAC correction curves and solve 1 or sometimes 2 of the issues but never to the degree that makes me say this is perfect, sure it's GOOD and almost everyone that listens to the system comments on how nice it sounds but to me it's just generally good and sure I can live with it but I know it can be improved upon.

Almost done the first installment, my health has deteriorated a lot the last couple of years and I realize that there is a possibility I wont turn 80. This in combination with the fact that I have had some great opportunities in life, which have given me some financial buffer and most importantly my wife saying I should for once do something for me led me on a quest for a speaker upgrade, but that is the next installment.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you for beginning to chronicle this journey for us!

 

[Peter Bomberg]

Playing Hooky for a couple of min and starting installment #2, research and short list.

As I mentioned esthetics are critical as this is our living space and it's highly visible from the sides. Additionally the space poses some interesting challenges due to the narrow nook lined with glass and that the speakers have to be tight against the fireplace
These constraints immediately eliminated many very good speakers, I removed side firing systems such as Vivid Audio, PS Audio, KEF, etc. Due to esthetics my wife vetoed all square boxes (Klipsh, Canton, Tanoy, etc.)

A bit of background about Ottawa is needed, an while there will be those that disagree I distinctly feel we lack high end audio shops, we have many really good ones that cover the mid range and while some carry the higher end brands they only stock the entry level of the brand, I will use B&W as an example they have the 700 series but only the 805 and 804, another speaker I was originally looking at was the Wilson Audio but the only model they have to demo was the Sabrina. There are of course exceptions but it made listening to the speakers complected, so I relied heavily on online sources.

Now the fun part, lots of research including on this forum and other online sources, I came up with a short list of brands:
Magico
Wilson Audio
Estelon
B&W
Focal
Usher
Revel
RockPort
Paradigm
Joseph Audio

Additionally when I had the opportunity I listened to that were not on my original list Autovector, Sons Farber, Scansonic, Raidho, etc. As you can see there are no models and no budget (YET), I went into this with an open mind saying to myself lets listen and see where the law of diminishing return brings me to say not worth the tradeoff (we love to travel so I will use the benchmark, will this upgrade bring me more joy than a 2-3 month trip (we like to go for one long trip a year) so for sake of argument lets assume a budget of 30K for the trip each increment of 30K for the speakers is potentially one less trip.

The main criteria for me is enjoyment (some will call it analog sounding, some call it musicality, some call it lack of listening fatigue) but the reality is my view is simple, I want the system to make me smile. Sadly my life seldom lets me listen for more than 1-2 songs at a time, some would say why are you spending this kind of money for 10-20 min at a time (and that is a good point), some would say what kind of a life is that (and that is also a good point) but honestly other than my wife, my doctor, my friends and mostly my thoughts these points are simply facts.

I started listening to the Sabrina and I have to say I enjoyed the sound, relaxed, precise and very musical, but they lacked the disappearing act (I firmly believe I should be able to close my eyes and the speakers should disappear) I should remember being at the concert or ... however Wilson Audio were removed from the list as my wife didn't like the shape.

Next up was a visit to a store in Montreal that had both Focal and B&W + others, after much listening I realized my RELs combined with the 805 sounded better than the 804, while the 801 was tighter and more dramatic I didn't' really love it, actually I preferred the 802 and 803, I started comparing them to the Focal and, well the next to go were the Focal's, while they disappeared they sounded harsher than the B&W, the sound simply was less enjoyable on cymbals and harp, etc. One more drawback of them was to get a significant improvement over the 805s I felt the Sopra #2 was the minimum and realistically the Sopra #3 was where I felt it was significant but the 803 for the same price was simply a nicer, cleaner, clearer sounding system and it's also a much nicer looking speaker in my space. But this is the first budget clue! My perception was that I needed to be willing to go to at least 20K for it to be worth it and realistically 30K was the minimum (ie a really nice trip), ok some serious thinking later and I realized several things.

1) Yes I enjoy music enough that I will give up a trip as the 30K speakers were significantly better.
2) 30K was the entry price but realistically I would also need to upgrade the electronics so was I willing to spend 60K on a stereo (and this is the first cope creep clue), the answer was yes

Fast forward a bit and I mentally said assume I need a complete new system lets revise the budget to 80 and see where this takes me, the answer is a lot more options and more comparison/research/etc..

AudioVector is good value for the money but paled when compared to other brands, Paradigm was great for rock and punchy music but I didn't really enjoy the sound for classical and new age. Esthetically Revel never got me excited , I have 4 Usher S-520's in my kitchen and I think for the size and price they are simply amazing little mini-monitors, so I wanted to give their larger cousins a try but sadly no matter how I tried they don't work in my space (the angle, porting, etc.) just simply didn't! But they sound great, however not for all music.

I never did get to listen to the Joseph Audio as my wife ranked them at the bottom of the now lost of 5, but a couple brands kept coming up Magico, Estelon and RockPort and in each of these some models got her approval. But Estelon scored massively higher in a price point and esthetic value than the rest, so the Estelon YB MKII it is right (spoiler alert they got eliminated but for a different reason).

Again a lot of research and sole searching and many good discussions with people on here and other audio sources, the speaker question got resolved in the following way, yes the YB will be better than what you have but will they be good enough to make you feel like this is a significant improvement, and the answer was more a muted maybe, so if you are going for the smile and yes this was worth it feeling look at the next level ie 50-60K (Estelon XB, Magic S7, Rockport) but only one of these brands really made me say wow these look amazing and all the reviews said the same they sound great, so I spent more time thinking/looking and so on. And as luck has it a gently used pair in the right happened to be available when I decided to jump in with both feet so I will be heading to Chicago to listen to what I believe will be my next speakers, a pair of silver gloss Estelon X Diamond MKII.


Now I did mention scope creep, well I am VERY guilty of this which I will detail in the next installment.

 

[Peter Bomberg]

Scope Creep

So this quest started as a hmm, should I upgrade my speakers, the answer was yes.

The next question was to what price point and my first answer was 30-40 on the speaker and 10-20 on electronics bringing my total budget to 50ish, but that sadly didn't last that long. Soul searching and the revised speaker budget became a pair of Estelon X Diamonds (so 90K) and now the real scope creep began.

Absolutely everyone had the same feedback the electronics I was looking at would be fine for the YB but not do the X justice, some people went as far as saying don't buy the X as you will be disappointed based on the electronics. And I have to admit the reviews of the X implied the same so another spreadsheet for electronics, that included entries from Aurender, MSB, Vitus, NAD, PS Audio, Classe, Devialet, Rotel, Niam, Cambridge, Luxman, Marantz, Moon, Innuos, Hagel and others.

Rather than going trough the+/- of each as it would be a very long post I will group things together
Classe, Cambridge, Moon, Marantz, Rotel, Hagel, all good and excellent value for the money but lacked anything that made me say wow.
Devialet, really interesting, but after looking at it in detail it wasn't what I want
Niam, pretty close but feature wise Aurender is a better fit for me
Vitus, might be perfect but the literature/reviews/comments on the streamer module left me with too many unanswered questions
Innuos, don't like the look. pretty much every other steamer could not beat Aurender from a feature/function perspective



Which left me with a dilemma which I will resolve on the 23rd (and I am really looking forward to it)

I know the features and capabilities of a NAD M66 + dual M23's will be good and check off every usability aspect but I have been told by many that it wont bring out the best of the X's, sadly I can't audition this setup on the 23rd so it's a fall back

I have not heard the PS Audio stack but the concept of a tube amp class D combo with a great reputation checks several of my boxes (warm, power efficient, intelligent standby, etc.)

Aurender, might be part of the equation in the future but I have begrudgingly bought a lifetime Roon subscription to learn how to live with the SW as I am not a Roon fan, however this is by far my favorite streamer.

MSB, by reputation and feedback from many the best combo with the X, so on the 23rd I will listen to 4 MSB combinations and compare them against a more budget friendly baseline or baselines.

 

[thedudeabides]

I, like others on this forum, certainly wish you luck and ultimate success in assembling a system that ticks all of your and your wifes boxes. But IMHO, your methodology creates a massive amount of variables that will compromise, at best, your ability to reach your goal. Worst case scenario, you may put yourself on a endless path of frustration and, in the end, just give up. And then there is the financial implications of your current approach. I hope others will provide alternative insights but this would be my suggestion.

Approach from a system "synergy" perspective. I assume you understand the concept. Don't attempt the piecemeal method but if this is what you prefer or are forced into given your location, by all means pursue and disregard the rest of my post.

First set an approximate max dollar amount that you are comfortable with and develop a short list of speakers based on your aesthetic and personal sound biases.

Second. Find a dealer that you like / trust and has the necessary expertise to put the entire system "puzzle" together. Eliminate variables and aim towards a one stop shop approach if possible. Avoid dealers that appear to have a particular agenda and / or bias. Given your budget, it appears you can afford a six figure system but your dealer may be able to assemble something less costly. Ask him about store policies such as auditions, trade ups, trade ins, etc. And ask if he would be willing to assist with install and initial system tuning.

Third. Enjoy the process but let me state an obvious issue. Preferred speaker location could prove very problematic in reaching your desired goal. Good luck.

 

[Peter Bomberg]

I, like others on this forum, certainly wish you luck and ultimate success in assembling a system that ticks all of your and your wifes boxes. But IMHO, your methodology creates a massive amount of variables that will compromise, at best, your ability to reach your goal. Worst case scenario, you may put yourself on a endless path of frustration and, in the end, just give up. And then there is the financial implications of your current approach. I hope others will provide alternative insights but this would be my suggestion.

Approach from a system "synergy" perspective. I assume you understand the concept. Don't attempt the piecemeal method but if this is what you prefer, by all means pursue and disregard the rest of my post.

First set an approximate max dollar amount that you are comfortable with and develop a short list of speakers based on your aesthetic and personal sound biases.

Second. Find a dealer that you like / trust and has the necessary expertise to put the entire system "puzzle" together. Eliminate variables and aim towards a one stop shop approach if possible. Avoid dealers that appear to have a particular agenda and / or bias. Given your budget, it appears you can afford a six figure system but your dealer may be able to assemble something less costly. Ask him about store policies such as auditions, trade ups, trade ins, etc. And ask if he would be willing to assist with install and initial system tuning.

Third. Enjoy the process. Good luck.

Thank you and yes this approach is far from ideal, but it's sort of a the least evil compromise. Ideally there would be a dealer locally I could work with but sadly I haven't found anyone suitable.

It certainly isn't the cheapest option nor the ideal of slowly addressing sonic issues and improving the system, but I also know that my wife would rather I make loads of changes once than constant adjustments.

I agree 100 on the synergy aspect which I think you will see when I summarize the audition installment

And thank you, the process has both been fun and annoying, but I will take all the luck I can

 

[Peter Bomberg]

I was asked a couple questions so let me try to answer and share my view on 1

I wont call them stereo's but the answer I have more music systems than maybe makes sense.
1 Sonos Play with Marantz + Proac 2.5 + REL T7/x
3 Sonos Amps with speakers ranging from Warfdales to Mission to Monitor Audio
2 Sonos Amps with Polk Atrium 6
2 Bluesound Powernodes with Ushers
1 Bluesound Node with Marantz Amp + Proac 2.5 + Rel T5
1 NAD M33 + B&W 805D4 + dual RELS/812
1 NAD T758v3 + dual Polk PSW 505 subs + 5 Martin Logan XTW5-LCR
1 Bluesound Node + Classe CAP-151, + Wyred 4 Sound DAC + REL T7/x


The point of the audition is NOT to find the system that sounds the best, nor is it the system that fits a budget as the budget is driven by 1 question am I willing to give up (insert thing) to enjoy this at home. Call it best value, but not best value for the money but rather best lifestyle value. I don't have a crystal ball so I might have budget constraints later in life or I may not, but the system needs to make me smile bring me joy and not regret the things I am choosing to potentially give up. Let's pretend the delta is 100K, which is a lot of money but it may not mean giving anything up or it might mean giving lots up, only time will tell.

Next question, why these options when there are so many options, well the answer is mostly reviewers and feedback + a great dealer and lots of honest comments, but the truth is one of the options is I come home empty handed if I don't think the system offers good value.

Sources, yes there are tons out there that have overlapping features and many are trying to win you over not due to the sonics but due to their SW, my experience may not be typical but I don't us 90% of the SW, I will take Bluesound as an example, I use it to set up the systems and once they are running I don't really use it, Tidal, Roon and Spotify and once in a very blue moon, something from my NAS.

 

[Lee]

Playing Hooky for a couple of min and starting installment #2, research and short list.

As I mentioned esthetics are critical as this is our living space and it's highly visible from the sides. Additionally the space poses some interesting challenges due to the narrow nook lined with glass and that the speakers have to be tight against the fireplace View attachment 135116
These constraints immediately eliminated many very good speakers, I removed side firing systems such as Vivid Audio, PS Audio, KEF, etc. Due to esthetics my wife vetoed all square boxes (Klipsh, Canton, Tanoy, etc.)

A bit of background about Ottawa is needed, an while there will be those that disagree I distinctly feel we lack high end audio shops, we have many really good ones that cover the mid range and while some carry the higher end brands they only stock the entry level of the brand, I will use B&W as an example they have the 700 series but only the 805 and 804, another speaker I was originally looking at was the Wilson Audio but the only model they have to demo was the Sabrina. There are of course exceptions but it made listening to the speakers complected, so I relied heavily on online sources.

Now the fun part, lots of research including on this forum and other online sources, I came up with a short list of brands:
Magico
Wilson Audio
Estelon
B&W
Focal
Usher
Revel
RockPort
Paradigm
Joseph Audio

Additionally when I had the opportunity I listened to that were not on my original list Autovector, Sons Farber, Scansonic, Raidho, etc. As you can see there are no models and no budget (YET), I went into this with an open mind saying to myself lets listen and see where the law of diminishing return brings me to say not worth the tradeoff (we love to travel so I will use the benchmark, will this upgrade bring me more joy than a 2-3 month trip (we like to go for one long trip a year) so for sake of argument lets assume a budget of 30K for the trip each increment of 30K for the speakers is potentially one less trip.

The main criteria for me is enjoyment (some will call it analog sounding, some call it musicality, some call it lack of listening fatigue) but the reality is my view is simple, I want the system to make me smile. Sadly my life seldom lets me listen for more than 1-2 songs at a time, some would say why are you spending this kind of money for 10-20 min at a time (and that is a good point), some would say what kind of a life is that (and that is also a good point) but honestly other than my wife, my doctor, my friends and mostly my thoughts these points are simply facts.

I started listening to the Sabrina and I have to say I enjoyed the sound, relaxed, precise and very musical, but they lacked the disappearing act (I firmly believe I should be able to close my eyes and the speakers should disappear) I should remember being at the concert or ... however Wilson Audio were removed from the list as my wife didn't like the shape.

Next up was a visit to a store in Montreal that had both Focal and B&W + others, after much listening I realized my RELs combined with the 805 sounded better than the 804, while the 801 was tighter and more dramatic I didn't' really love it, actually I preferred the 802 and 803, I started comparing them to the Focal and, well the next to go were the Focal's, while they disappeared they sounded harsher than the B&W, the sound simply was less enjoyable on cymbals and harp, etc. One more drawback of them was to get a significant improvement over the 805s I felt the Sopra #2 was the minimum and realistically the Sopra #3 was where I felt it was significant but the 803 for the same price was simply a nicer, cleaner, clearer sounding system and it's also a much nicer looking speaker in my space. But this is the first budget clue! My perception was that I needed to be willing to go to at least 20K for it to be worth it and realistically 30K was the minimum (ie a really nice trip), ok some serious thinking later and I realized several things.

1) Yes I enjoy music enough that I will give up a trip as the 30K speakers were significantly better.
2) 30K was the entry price but realistically I would also need to upgrade the electronics so was I willing to spend 60K on a stereo (and this is the first cope creep clue), the answer was yes

Fast forward a bit and I mentally said assume I need a complete new system lets revise the budget to 80 and see where this takes me, the answer is a lot more options and more comparison/research/etc..

AudioVector is good value for the money but paled when compared to other brands, Paradigm was great for rock and punchy music but I didn't really enjoy the sound for classical and new age. Esthetically Revel never got me excited , I have 4 Usher S-520's in my kitchen and I think for the size and price they are simply amazing little mini-monitors, so I wanted to give their larger cousins a try but sadly no matter how I tried they don't work in my space (the angle, porting, etc.) just simply didn't! But they sound great, however not for all music.

I never did get to listen to the Joseph Audio as my wife ranked them at the bottom of the now lost of 5, but a couple brands kept coming up Magico, Estelon and RockPort and in each of these some models got her approval. But Estelon scored massively higher in a price point and esthetic value than the rest, so the Estelon YB MKII it is right (spoiler alert they got eliminated but for a different reason).

Again a lot of research and sole searching and many good discussions with people on here and other audio sources, the speaker question got resolved in the following way, yes the YB will be better than what you have but will they be good enough to make you feel like this is a significant improvement, and the answer was more a muted maybe, so if you are going for the smile and yes this was worth it feeling look at the next level ie 50-60K (Estelon XB, Magic S7, Rockport) but only one of these brands really made me say wow these look amazing and all the reviews said the same they sound great, so I spent more time thinking/looking and so on. And as luck has it a gently used pair in the right happened to be available when I decided to jump in with both feet so I will be heading to Chicago to listen to what I believe will be my next speakers, a pair of silver gloss Estelon X Diamond MKII.


Now I did mention scope creep, well I am VERY guilty of this which I will detail in the next installment.

First off, congratulations!

Second, I have some observations:

**All Wilson Audio speakers disappear. It's just a matter of setup. I wonder if your wife might be happy with the small form factor Watt Puppy speakers and in a color that she approves. These have the latest Wilson drivers, caps, cabinet materials, and absolutely sound huge compared to their size.

**Square rooms are very challenging from a room acoustics standpoint. I was recently voicing a square room with Jim Smith's great help and it just had so many limitations. If there is a way to not the speakers on each side of the fireplace, your chances will greatly increase. The wall on the left from looking at the fireplace would be ideal based on what I know now.

**Add subwoofers always in pairs. You need setup help and another subwoofer to solve the bass issues. Also, remember it is about the space, mores than the actual bass (LF output).

**There are a number of great integrated amplifier choices these days. Given your wife's significant involvement, would fewer boxes be ideal? CH Precision has an all-in-one with digital streaming that is quite nice. On a lower budget, the Boulder 866 is excellent.

**On the entry end of higher end DACs, I feel the dCS Bartok Apex is better than many of the MSB offerings. That's definitely worth an audition and maybe also stretch for a Rossini Player if you have a large disc collection like I do.

**Question: Are you planning to add an analog source like a turntable?

 

[Peter Bomberg]

First off, congratulations!

Second, I have some observations:

**All Wilson Audio speakers disappear. It's just a matter of setup. I wonder if your wife might be happy with the small form factor Watt Puppy speakers and in a color that she approves. These have the latest Wilson drivers, caps, cabinet materials, and absolutely sound huge compared to their size.

**Square rooms are very challenging from a room acoustics standpoint. I was recently voicing a square room with Jim Smith's great help and it just had so many limitations. If there is a way to not the speakers on each side of the fireplace, your chances will greatly increase. The wall on the left from looking at the fireplace would be ideal based on what I know now.

**Add subwoofers always in pairs. You need setup help and another subwoofer to solve the bass issues. Also, remember it is about the space, mores than the actual bass (LF output).

**There are a number of great integrated amplifier choices these days. Given your wife's significant involvement, would fewer boxes be ideal? CH Precision has an all-in-one with digital streaming that is quite nice. On a lower budget, the Boulder 866 is excellent.

**On the entry end of higher end DACs, I feel the dCS Bartok Apex is better than many of the MSB offerings. That's definitely worth an audition and maybe also stretch for a Rossini Player if you have a large disc collection like I do.

**Question: Are you planning to add an analog source like a turntable?

Thank you Lee, she vetoed Wilson but honestly I am not really upset as I auditioned a system that I thought was really fantastic. I will share in my next installment. The placement will be a major challenge when the system is delivered but sadly it's not one I have any flexibility on.

I agree about paired subs, the problem with the subs and the mains i solvable I agree but at some point in time I simply ran out of time/skills to fix it so it became a hmm a nag.

I actually listened to a couple of integrated and I agree there are many great options, I found however that for some aspects dual mon's were simply unbeatable thought.

And strictly digital, 99% streaming

 

[Peter Bomberg]

Next installment - Audition

Before I write up the Audition and the conclusion I want to tell you what happened when I got home and had a chance to listen to my system, and I took a bit of time to get my thoughts in order and to make sure I was hearing what I initially thought.

I sat and listened to the same tracks at roughly the same volume on my home system and my first reaction was I am really hearing 2 systems working together and doing a good job most of the time, but no matter how close they are not really linear. I then listened to the exact same track at the same volume that we used for the audition, and for a while my mind refused to believe it was the same recording as it sounded soo different. At low volumes there was no depth to the sound stage the width was there but it felt 2 dimensional compared to the system I auditioned.
There was a lack of detail and the biggest difference was the that the spatial resolution was simply ok, and the lows lacked tightness and instantaneousness.

At higher volumes the REL’s are more than capable of definition but the sound stage was smaller, the spatial resolution was less precise and in general it was less energetic/lively feeling than the systems I auditioned. Not lifeless but not lifelike either.

Now to tell you about the Audition, the cables used for all of the tests are AudioQuest ThunderBird, the speakers are EstelonX Diamond MKII, the placement was specifically done to match my space where the flight cases represent the edges of my fireplace. Power is supplied by a Niagra 3000 with Firebird power cables, the digital signal is being run trough a DJM Active filter, the same tracks at the same volume were used for all tests.

System #1 - Luxman L-509X + MSB Discrete DAC
At low volume lifeless and flat, 2 dimensional (strangely similar to my current setup now that I am writing the summery), at a bit higher
volumes there is a noticeable improvement on liveliness (to be fair it exceeds my system) but not lively and exciting percussion sounds muted the piano sounds clinky. I would not considerer this combination as it's actually a downgrade from my perspective, better SQ but much less value for the money which is actually what I am buying.

We simply eliminated the Luxman as it was a bit of a letdown and I have to admit I was surprised (in a negative way). The build quality is amazing,, the esthetics are great and the engineering well thought out (took some time to figure out the remote as there are too many buttons).

System #2 - MSB S202 + MSB Discrete DAC
At low volume it is a much tighter base than system 1, it also has a wider soundstage but still not the precise imaging I was expecting. at mid volumes it becomes a very pleasant but not overwhelming system (still not an upgrade from a value perspective, the sound quality is without hesitation better than my system but not good enough that I am willing to give up travel for this combination

System #3 – MSB S202 + MSB Reference DAC
Ok this is getting good, even at low volume the soundstage is now very detailed and solid, I can place instruments and movements are fluid. turning up the value to mid level makes is clear there is no need for subs to cover the full spectrum. The soundstage has widened to thought edge of the speakers or maybe a touch wider. The imaging is precise and all instruments are present (a triangle that makes a ding is now clear where it used to be washed out, likely due to the reduced noise level. This is a clear upgrade and one I can start contemplating skipping a trip or 2

System 4# – MSB S202 + MSB Cascade DAC
First time I am smiling during the audition, even at low volumes I might not need the subs. The soundstage has grown in depth and width, the instruments are spaced apart (stage width, no longer speaker width, it's not wall to wall but a big improvement. At mid volume there is absolutely no need for subs. The music flows with ease and speed. And at high volume, the system can easily fill my house with warm and engaging musicality. System #4 is an upgrade but also a significant cost increase, I however was impressed.

System #5 MSB M205 + MSB Cascade DAC
At mid volume the contrabass strings are plucked!, I simply could not make out the detail on any other system. the attack is faster, the cymbals are clearer, the hesitant piano keys can be separated from the assertive ones, the imperfections are perfectly rendered, you can tell when the mic is badly placed, its lifelike and a massive upgrade. even at lower the system doesn’t loose much base.

At the time I was listening, I was smiling more and more, and I was thinking while this system causes me logistic issue, and it's a lot of vacations I have to give up I can say it's an upgrade. Now that I have come home and compared to my system it's not an upgrade it's in a league of it's own compared to the other system.


I am aware there are many other combinations and permutations some that might be better than system#5 but even having the time to write this brief summery is time I really don't have at this time so yes I limited to systems that got great reviews and where I was able to work with a great dealer and great sales manager.

I will shortly post what the outcome was but now I have to return to working.

 

[Peter Bomberg]

 

[Peter Bomberg]

So the clock is ticking, the system should arrive Nov/Dec, as the picture shows, after listening to the various components in various configurations I decided that while this is extreme scope creep listening to the system made me willing to compromise and give something up in order to enjoy it daily.

It's strange how much clearer the MSB system is. I have to admit I was skeptical before listening to it. But the massive headroom increase is audible and acoustically it translates into a much crisper and cleaner sound. Very noticeable on cymbals and classical but even acoustic guitar and female vocals benefit.

The final config is a pair of MSB M205 + a MSB Cascade DAC, as my wife has made it clear convenience is key, there will be a Bluesound Node X for her to continue using Spotify in addition to Roon and Tidal. Power conditioning is a Niagra 3000 and the ACTIV digital filter on the input side. I had to draw the line somewhere so Thunderbird cabling across the board. The speakers were given but I was not prepared for the Estelon XB Diamond MKII they look right at home in a museum but sound absolutely fantastic at all volume levels and if you turn up the volume a touch you can easily forget you are at home and be transported to a jazz club, a stadium or a concert hall.

I will have to see when I get the system set up but I suspect my REL S/812pair will become home theater subs (they are simply too large for any other room in my house) but part of me says pair them with the XB and turn down the crossover so they only handle the very very bottom end (we will see).

The only thing I will miss is the sleep and wake function I currently have, as the electricity bill is something my wife will comment on!

 

[Lee]

So the clock is ticking, the system should arrive Nov/Dec, as the picture shows, after listening to the various components in various configurations I decided that while this is extreme scope creep listening to the system made me willing to compromise and give something up in order to enjoy it daily.

It's strange how much clearer the MSB system is. I have to admit I was skeptical before listening to it. But the massive headroom increase is audible and acoustically it translates into a much crisper and cleaner sound. Very noticeable on cymbals and classical but even acoustic guitar and female vocals benefit.

The final config is a pair of MSB M205 + a MSB Cascade DAC, as my wife has made it clear convenience is key, there will be a Bluesound Node X for her to continue using Spotify in addition to Roon and Tidal. Power conditioning is a Niagra 3000 and the ACTIV digital filter on the input side. I had to draw the line somewhere so Thunderbird cabling across the board. The speakers were given but I was not prepared for the Estelon XB Diamond MKII they look right at home in a museum but sound absolutely fantastic at all volume levels and if you turn up the volume a touch you can easily forget you are at home and be transported to a jazz club, a stadium or a concert hall.

I will have to see when I get the system set up but I suspect my REL S/812pair will become home theater subs (they are simply too large for any other room in my house) but part of me says pair them with the XB and turn down the crossover so they only handle the very very bottom end (we will see).

The only thing I will miss is the sleep and wake function I currently have, as the electricity bill is something my wife will comment on!

Peter, you have selected excellent components. I'm sure that sounds terrific.

 

[Creditingkarma]

Congratulations Peter you have built a great system. I am sure you will love the X Diamonds with the MSB gear. You also found a pretty good dealer to work with too Jamie is a good guy I happen to live down the road from his shop. I have a full MSB system with Estelon as well. I just upgraded from XB Diamonds to the X Diamond. The jump is very noticeable. It is great that you were able to meet Vince to he is a great guy and a wealth of knowledge.

 

[Peter Bomberg]

I will update in a bit more detail next week but let me say that the system is now installed and sounds pretty darn amazing, the low volume response needs some tweaks, but once you increase the volume the system is just fantastic.

 

[Lee]

I will update in a bit more detail next week but let me say that the system is now installed and sounds pretty darn amazing, the low volume response needs some tweaks, but once you increase the volume the system is just fantastic.

Congratulations! Please post some pictures.

 

[Peter Bomberg]

Still a work in progress, and the B&W will go to my office together with the NAD M33.

First impressions visually stunning, accusticly it's impossible to identify the source, close your eyes and the soundscape is 20ft wide and 15ft high. Sound projects much further out than the speaker placement.. Turn it up to 65 and you smile, my wife is out so I might try 70 today but I can't imagine ever going to 106.

I need to figure out how to adjust the volume as the Bluesound (Spotify for my wife) wont pass the volume the Cascade is at (ie can't raise above) and the renderer via Roon is way louder (lowered the default to 60)

I am also trying to figure out how to silence the clicking when it changes volume or source (Tidal changes every second song).

 

[Peter Bomberg]

Let me start with the obvious this is not a mass market system, this isn’t even a great value system, IT is a very brutal and unforgiving system, HOWEVER given the right circumstances it is truly AMAZING



First question that will be asked by the majority, no I can’t hear a 10 times improvement over the system it replaces, despite the 10X budget increase but I never expected to.



Second question that will be asked by many, the placement doesn’t look ideal, which might be true but in my experience everything in life is a compromise and this is no exception. I tried the speakers in the “ideal” spot and while the SQ was maybe a tiny bit better in some respects it was much smaller than I expected so the placement became less of an issue and the esthetics got higher priority. Many people told me the Estelon X are forgiving of the placement, and I will agree they are much less fussy than many speakers I have played with, counter intuitively I found the best sound with 0 toe in!



Now why do I say this is a brutal and unforgiving system, well it’s a direct side effect of the aim of the system. Give it a bad recording and you will hear it, give it a recording with scraping noises and they grate on you as they will be right there with you. Anything in the recording will be presented 100% faithfully and if it’s missing well, it will simply be “gone”. Why the word gone, it’s also a benefit the noise floor is amazing, when the recording has a decaying note that trails off to nothing, and I mean total silence. So, it’s unforgiving, but why brutal because it is 100% faithful. I worked in the music industry and when I close my eyes, smoky jazz clubs appear in front of you when you listen to the right track, live performances at Wembley Stadium sound just like I remember, quiet passages are soft and smooth and as you raise the volume the music stops being a backdrop and envelopes you. Sadly, this leads to one of my only issues with the SQ, but I will explain later



So now that I have shared most of the downsides, I should mention why I chose the combination of the MSB Cascade, the MSB M205 and the Estelon X Diamond MKII, in a nutshell if you give the system a great recording the SQ is superb.

Let’s start with the canvas, I would say the soundstage in my setup is 20-25ft by 10-15 (yes the speakers project an image that is higher and wider than the placement)

Now on that canvas musicians are placed with pinpoint accuracy, as they walk across the stage they walk behind or in front of each other they don’t walk trough, on some systems they appear to walk trough each other as the sound places them in the same spot, not here they are real and follow the laws of physics.

Next the canvas is 3D but not absurd I feel like the canvas is just right, large 3dimensional but not exaggerated, so a perfect score there



Next let’s talk about attack and decay, when you hear a system that isn’t fast enough the music is dull and lifeless, this is sadly either due to inability to cease a tone or inability to create it accurately in the first place. Shattering glass on this system falls and only shatters when it hits the ground, it then flies and the shards shatter as they hit the ground, but they do so quickly and then it’s silent, I would say for the mid to high it’s perfect the low is perfect once you pass 60dB. I was going to remove my dual REL S/812’s as during the audition of the Estelon X Diamond MKII they filled the room without difficulty and indeed at medium to higher listening volumes they do that very well, however anything below roughly 40-50db that turns out not to be the case in the large space I have. Once the needle moves to 60-70 the issue is no more, but I do a lot of listening between 40-55, so I suspect the RELs will stay. So a blended score of 8, but with the REL’s a solid 10.




Ok so the system doesn’t just play well it plays simply amazing when the source is good enough to show of it’s capabilities, combined with the REL’s I am pretty much never going to have anything more realistic, musical and engaging (pretty much as I am likely to upgrade the Thunderbird speaker cable to Dragon) and when I find a better streamer I will upgrade the Renderer (which from a sonic perspective scores a 10), if we were solely a Roon house I would likely never touch it but my wife is an Apple Spotify person and I am an android tidal person, who suffers trough Roon as I have no choice on the MSB renderer, I was going to get a Aurender but I finally figured out they lack one mandatory aspect for the N series (volume control via the app) and the A series makes no sense since I want to leverage the MSB Cascade. I have been told Lumin might work but for now I will stick with the sources I have (MSB Renderer for Roon, Bluesound Node X for Spotify).



The picture is a work in progress, the old system is going to my office, or the bedroom and all temp cables will be removed, the shoe shelf will get a waterproof carpet and the art might be moved over as it’s semi hidden.



I will save user friendliness and suitability to my requirements for another installment (and that is my main issue at this time, but we are talking about small issues to be honest). But a teaser the guys at MSB must be semi deaf as the default setting for the MSB is 70, coupled with the M205 and the Diamonds that is about 80dB!

PS. I dont do sound clips as they are a reflection of my phone but I made some if you want, I will upload

 

[Tuckers]

Congrtatulations! I heard the room/system at MSB last week, with the large Estelons, the Cascade Dac, and the MSB monoblocks (unsure which ones). The Bass detail and control in that room was amazing. Very typical MSB sound in that it was extremely liquid and laid back. It was not giving a great soundstage or pinpoint imaging though.

 

[Lee]

It’s a great system with terrific gear. Congratulations!

That said, in my experience all speakers benefit from optimal placement. However I recognize the compromises when used in a home. As long as you enjoy it, that’s what matters.