Will RTR be around in 5 years?

[c1ferrari]

Has anything much changed in R-to-R design recently? If you look at the specs for a modern machine you can see that it's still far from a transparent medium. SNR say 70dB, distortion 0.3%, frequency response +/-2dB.

It will be difficult, if not impossible, to attain 'the best' from any medium until loudspeaker imperfections and loudspeaker/room interaction are resolved

 

[Groucho]

It will be difficult, if not impossible, to attain 'the best' from any medium until loudspeaker imperfections and loudspeaker/room interaction are resolved

That's why I'm an active DSP kind of a guy.

 

[NorthStar]

Meridian?

 

[Groucho]

None of that info is new here and has been beaten to death eg. What does it mean? In fact Ralph Karsten also posted on the meaninglessness of these distortion figures as it actually relates to the human ear. As a matter of fact, the same question can be asked of SET amps: why despite their relatively high by ss standard distortion figures, do they have an inescapable magical quality? So distortion figures don't tell the entire tale.

The bit I was interested in was why the classical music bods in the 1970s went to the trouble of direct-to-disc recording simply to avoid the tape stage - they apparently thought that tape was the weakest link in the recording chain. (Has that been beaten to death? I thought it was quite a good fact). And then they went digital when that turned out better than the direct-to-disc. I then questioned whether they might change their minds today because of all the advances that have been made in tape recording since then. But there haven't been any, have there? As suggested by the same old specs as the 1970s.

 

[Groucho]

Meridian?

If only! I drool over their brochures...

 

[c1ferrari]

...And I want my SS to sound like tubes. ...Emotional tubes.

You know, Bob, e m o t i o n, that enveloping sensation is perhaps, the zenith -- hehe, we are talking tape decks, here
I experienced it just last night/early this morning...watching musical performances via YouTube over headphones through my laptop

 

[NorthStar]

"The zenith" ? ...Is it like a vortex?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I believe that when those conversations occured, I gave you the brand names and models of a handful of tables I've heard in shops in recent years and a couple that belong to friends of mine, which I get to hear fairly often. That wasn't sufficient experience for you, as I recall, and that's ok. The limitatiosns of the medium are the foundation of my point of view. And of course I understand that you disagree. You believe that with sufficient turntable and cartridge quality and set up, information can be retrieved from the grooves of vinyl and heard, that cannot be quatified by any measurement known. That is the gist of our disagreement, not the number of turntables I have at my disposal to listen to.

Tim

Tim,

i respect that you are a very smart guy. and to avoid this 'dance', how about i just retract my comment on what might have happened a few years ago. not worth talking about again....and i'm sorry to bring it up.

i regretted going down that road back then and i just remembered why.

Mike

 

[microstrip]

I already told you what I produced in my career, micro. Pay attention. Here:



Clearly, I produced commercials. Radio and television commercials, to be precise. Doesn't hold a candle to working on a recognizable album or film, of course, but it's a bit closer to the source than being an audiophile on an internet discussion board.

Tim

Tim,

Well, I have assisted live to several performances I have on recording with excellent quality from known labels and also a few from smaller orchestral groups who sell their own recordings that I have seen performing several times. IMHO that places me in a better position to evaluate the sound of these recordings than someone who just claims that he produced radio and television commercials 20 years ago - although as you say this is an internet discussion board and in theory we could be just two deaf people who like to debate audio matters ...

Anyway I see you want to use the argument of "close to the source", perhaps using studio conditions - we will disagree here as my reference is a life performance.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

i respect that you are a very smart guy. and to avoid this 'dance', how about i just retract my comment on what might have happened a few years ago. not worth talking about again....and i'm sorry to bring it up.

i regretted going down that road back then and i just remembered why.

Mike

Works for me, Mike. I'm a little tired of dancing at the moment. Aching feet.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

Well, I have assisted live to several performances I have on recording with excellent quality from known labels and also a few from smaller orchestral groups who sell their own recordings that I have seen performing several times. IMHO that places me in a better position to evaluate the sound of these recordings than someone who just claims that he produced radio and television commercials 20 years ago - although as you say this is an internet discussion board and in theory we could be just two deaf people who like to debate audio matters ...

Anyway I see you want to use the argument of "close to the source", perhaps using studio conditions - we will disagree here as my reference is a life performance.

Well, if I'm not a deaf guy who likes to argue audio on the internet, I'm a guy claiming to have spend a decade working in recording studios and field recording audio for professional applications. If you think that doesn't hold up to assisting in recording several performances for local orchestral groups, or whatever that first sentence says, enjoy that. And by the way, 20 years ago was the last time there was an opportunity to spend a decade making professional analog recordings.

Tim

 

[c1ferrari]

That's why I'm an active DSP kind of a guy.

An intriguing approach, Groucho

 

[hvbias]

From the hifi shows I've been to there is usually some decent buzz around the rooms spinning tape, I think it will be around in five years. Just based what I know from our small (vinyl addicted) listening group, people are less reluctant about the cost and more about software availability.

Mike L's first post about the initial start up costs into tape is logical and I agree with him. You can spend a ton on a vinyl setup given 3 variables minimum; 4 if you count turntable and tonearm as separate. And then hundreds to thousands more on cleaning and setup equipment.

 

[microstrip]

I would like to point I spent around usd 1500 on an old Studer A80 RC , less than 1000 in spares, re-lapped heads and service equipment, a few winter nights and several holiday days servicing the machine and usd 800 in a Bottlead tubed preamplifier kit - not bad for a source that with the best TapeProject tapes surpasses my vinyl and CD playback equipment.

 

[Groucho]

I would like to point I spent around usd 1500 on an old Studer A80 RC , less than 1000 in spares, re-lapped heads and service equipment, a few winter nights and several holiday days servicing the machine and usd 800 in a Bottlead tubed preamplifier kit - not bad for a source that with the best TapeProject tapes surpasses my vinyl and CD playback equipment.

I'm sure it's very beautiful (and I'd like one!) but that's quite an outlay compared to a couple of chips. A claim could be made very tentatively that the digital solution is better in every way by a huge factor (apart from the sonics, there's cost, weight, size, maintenance, ease of use, energy consumption, robustness etc.). That's what I find fascinating about digital: it's such a beautiful idea that's been refined to an almost ridiculous degree e.g. there's no reliable evidence at all that 16/44.1 is not sufficient for the consumer, but the boffins have given us 24/192 in a USB stick the size of a thumbnail. It's crazy.

 

[c1ferrari]

"The zenith" ? ...Is it like a vortex?

Haha
Check this out -- informative illustrations with clarifying examples: http://www.danalee.ca/ttt/appendices.htm#tapeheads
Scroll down to Tape Heads and Tape Tracks

 

[mep]

I'm sure it's very beautiful (and I'd like one!) but that's quite an outlay compared to a couple of chips. A claim could be made very tentatively that the digital solution is better in every way by a huge factor (apart from the sonics, there's cost, weight, size, maintenance, ease of use, energy consumption, robustness etc.). That's what I find fascinating about digital: it's such a beautiful idea that's been refined to an almost ridiculous degree e.g. there's no reliable evidence at all that 16/44.1 is not sufficient for the consumer, but the boffins have given us 24/192 in a USB stick the size of a thumbnail. It's crazy.

I know that "boffins" is British slang, but I think it's funny.

 

[Groucho]

Haha
Check this out -- informative illustrations with clarifying examples: http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/audio/pages/Recorders.htm#zen
Scroll down to Tape Heads and Tape Tracks

It brings back memories. Of cotton buds and alcohol and degaussing - I still have a degaussing 'probe' somwehere. What a practical system!

The heads on a recorder acquire a build up of tape oxide after constant use so it is necessary to clean the heads and the tape guides regularly, like twice a day.

 

[microstrip]

I'm sure it's very beautiful (and I'd like one!) but that's quite an outlay compared to a couple of chips. A claim could be made very tentatively that the digital solution is better in every way by a huge factor (apart from the sonics, there's cost, weight, size, maintenance, ease of use, energy consumption, robustness etc.). That's what I find fascinating about digital: it's such a beautiful idea that's been refined to an almost ridiculous degree e.g. there's no reliable evidence at all that 16/44.1 is not sufficient for the consumer, but the boffins have given us 24/192 in a USB stick the size of a thumbnail. It's crazy.

Groucho,

Surely - the temptation of such claim is legitimate. However the owner of the system is the last judge in this process and it seems many of us find that, although digital has some specif advantages over analog in sound reproduction in particular aspects, the final balance is still in favor of analog for ultimate quality sound reproduction. It seems we are in sufficient number and loud enough to upset those who do not agree, and love spending their time working hard and even building conspirator theories to explain our preference.

Anyway, some people also state that 14 or 15 bits is sufficient for the consumer. Have you considered showing them reliable evidence that the 16 bits are really needed? IMHO, it is a much worthier cause than a few people love for RTRs.

BTW, I appreciated your comments about 24/192 - I currently do not own any HiRez equipment and my ego was needing some support.

 

[c1ferrari]

It brings back memories. Of cotton buds and alcohol and degaussing...

It's realizing a manner of catharsis, personally