Why We Need Sound Above 120 Decibels

[mep]

I don't get the point to this thread at all. If you feel the need for having a system that is playing at 120dB sound pressure levels, you have a desire to go deaf and you will. It's just a matter of time. Good luck with that.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles, as far as I know, all of those calculators are based on a-weighted broadband noise measurement which the government uses. So they don't apply here. Here is the response of a-weighted noise:

It is 20 db down at 100 Hz alone. And 50db by 20 Hz. Any guidelines there is not likely to represent pure bass frequencies < 50 Hz.

Again, I am interested in reading any studies that show hearing loss strictly due to bass frequencies. I have searched on multiple occasions and other than finding articles where people say there should be more studies, I have not found anything.

And yes, I know the effects are cumulative. But before we worry about that, we need to establish the effect of a single experience.

You know Amir, it's all rather academic. You want to risk your ears and hearing, be my guest.

A, C, D, G or Klingon rating aside, how about ringing in the ears after listening as an indicator of short term hearing damage? I think Mark has already told us he experiences that with his listening levels.

We'll see where were are in 10 or 20 years. I think it's plain stupid.

 

[amirm]

How about ringing in the ears as an indicator of short term hearing damage? I think Mark has already told us he experiences that with his listening levels.

I have not heard any ringing as a result of low frequency stimulus. His listening levels did not have a limited frequency response which is the area of interest for me.

If you want to listen at 120 dB levels then good luck to all. We'll see where were are in 10 or 20 years. I think it's plain stupid.

I don't get this answer, nor Mark's. I wear hearing protection religiously in woodworking, mowing the lawn, etc. I wear an ANSI rated helmet and face shields any time I pick up a power tool. I refuse to go to any loud concerts even when I was invited to one for free at CES . I make a living or at least used to, from my ears. I am no less careful than either one of you in these regards. Nor am I advocating people damaging their hearing by just turning up the volume.

I am simply asking for research that shows the effects of low frequency impact on our hearing. If you don't have any, that's cool. Let's not generalize to me not caring about my hearing or not being safety conscious. That's neither here nor there even if it were true.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I have not heard any ringing as a result of low frequency stimulus. His listening levels did not have a limited frequency response which is the area of interest for me.


I don't get this answer, nor Mark's. I wear hearing protection religiously in woodworking, mowing the lawn, etc. I wear an ANSI rated helmet and face shields any time I pick up a power tool. I refuse to go to any loud concerts even when I was invited to one for free at CES . I make a living or at least used to, from my ears. I am no less careful than either one of you in these regards. Nor am I advocating people damaging their hearing by just turning up the volume.

I am simply asking for research that shows the effects of low frequency impact on our hearing. If you don't have any, that's cool. Let's not generalize to me not caring about my hearing or not being safety conscious. That's neither here nor there even if it were true.

I think the feeling that I get from reading your posts is that you're legitimitizing Mark's listening levels--even when he reports post-listening session ringing in his ears. We can ask if it's due to low frequencies or what, but that's all academic IMHO.

 

[microstrip]

I thnk you live in a different universe than people who love music vs. people who play recordings of fireworks and want to endure some pain and discomfort from their stereo systems.

Sure. But happily 0.1% of people have requirements that differ from ours and we can learn from their experiences and may be, get some information that can allow us to perfect our hifi systems.
However , it is like learning to drive in a tank - you do not learn how to avoid small obstacles!

BTW, I doubt that any wealth insurance plan will cover your otolaryngologist expenses if they learn you have such a system at home.

 

[mep]

Amir-the comments are aimed mainly at the thread topic. People shouldn't advocate listening at levels of 120dB, shotgun shells or fireworks shells or not. When you made the point of even if you lost bass response hearing you could still feel it like that was OK, it raised some eyebrows.

 

[Mark Seaton]

Mark is in another dimension to be sure than the rest of us .

That said, we recently powered up our new showroom which has two parallel system with each getting into scary spl category. We are talking multiple tapped horn subs, multiple JBL subs, etc.

Anyway, Mark is right about sensation of the experience changing. At -20db, or so, the system sounds impressively loud. At -10db, your pant legs and other items move in ways you have not felt before. So far, we have rarely dared to go up near 0 db. When we did try it for short period, you start to feel different yet again. It is hard to describe but when watching a movie with high dynamics, you start to worry that the whole world is getting torn up around you! We already had two people get sick watching some scenes. Me? I enjoyed it to death .

Or use this calculator to determine max exposure time to different loudness levels.Note nothing above 115 dB is recommended and at 115 max exposure time is 15 mins.

http://www.entusa.com/noise_hearing_loss.htm

I think plenty know I'm a fan/proponent of big dynamic headroom and not one to be shy with the main volume.

That said, this argument has been beaten to death, and as usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle... Under the chart for guidelines on industrial sound exposure:

Exposure to impulsive or impact noise should not exceed 140 dB peak sound pressure level.

Our perception of loudness is based on sound power, not momentary intensity. In other words, it's the sliding average over time. If you compare what you see from an SPL meter when listening to music at different levels in a slow setting vs. fast, you should generally see that the slow setting has a good correlation to the overall loudness and the bouncing of the needle or peak values in fast mode relate to how dynamic or startling the music is. C weighting includes much more of our bass perception, where A weighting tends to correlate pretty well to what sounds more painful when such levels and duration is reached (sorry, no direct references handy).

Equipment noise is both sustained and repetitive. Accordingly the sound power (energy over some time period) is also high. Unless you are listening to compressed FM pop music or at too many concerts where the system is run very near it's limits, pleasurable music has a significant dynamic range (loudest to softest), and crest factor (peak vs. average). To create the sort of exposure that exists in loud workplaces, you would have to listen such that the SPL meter would read those sorts of levels nearly continuously in slow mode. So while such levels are dangerous, we shouldn't immediately apply industrial guidelines to music & soundtrack enjoyment in the home. To be clear, it is most certainly possible to damage your hearing with loud music at high enough sustained levels.

This aspect of energy integrated over time means that not only does the output of the speakers matter, but also what happens in the room. In highly reflective rooms the sound is both louder than outdoors, and takes much longer to decay. This means the same max intensity music sounds louder indoors than outdoors, as the sound has greater duration after the initial peak, which means greater power. This is a big factor where you hear of some enthusiasts with well treated dedicated rooms happily listening to a movie at "reference level" when others can't bear to listen much louder than -10dB in a living room. The perception is real due to the acoustics, even if the peak levels are the same.

A very important complication in discussing system headroom and maximum capability is the way loudspeakers work and are designed. The reality is that for great performance in peak handling, you often need much greater continuous capability than is warranted for the peak levels expected. This handling of dynamic peaks is a big part of what Amir referenced in listening to their own systems.

 

[Mark Seaton]

I think the feeling that I get from reading your posts is that you're legitimitizing Mark's listening levels--even when he reports post-listening session ringing in his ears. We can ask if it's due to low frequencies or what, but that's all academic IMHO.

My impression was that Amir was affirming that systems with huge capability do have some very enjoyable qualities. While I wouldn't advocate some of the extremes Mark seems to lust for, we shouldn't entirely dismiss all capable systems of instantaneously deafening listeners.

 

[Ron Party]

As always, Mark, the voice of reason.

 

[FrantzM]

As always, Mark, the voice of reason.

Indeed .. I would like to see him post more here !!! Extremely well put points ...

 

[MylesBAstor]

My impression was that Amir was affirming that systems with huge capability do have some very enjoyable qualities. While I wouldn't advocate some of the extremes Mark seems to lust for, we shouldn't entirely dismiss all capable systems of instantaneously deafening listeners.

And those qualities are? Perhaps a dominatrix would be cheaper.

I think you are talking about sensationalism or sensurround--those HT type qualities--an audio system defined by musical qualities. Quantity over quality. BTW I I've never attended an unamplified classical music or jazz music concert and left with my ears ringing. Have you? Nor would I go to a rock concert and endure pain inducing levels either. YMMV.

And to be honest, I don't need to play my system at anywhere near those volume levels to get pleasure out of my system. That's also one of the most important qualities defining a REAL high end audio system: resolution ability. In most cases when you're playing a system at absurdly loud levels, all you're trying to do is look for missing resolution.

 

[MylesBAstor]

As always, Mark, the voice of reason.

Thank you Ron. What would we do without you?

 

[Ron Party]

Continue to post about wire imported from Italy, no doubt.

 

[amirm]

And to be honest, I don't need to play my system at anywhere near those volume levels to get pleasure out of my system.

We don't either. But for the right content, more pleasure comes from feeling the impact rather than just imagining it.

That's also one of the most important qualities defining a REAL high end audio system: resolution ability. In most cases when you're playing a system at absurdly loud levels, all you're trying to do is look for missing resolution.

None of us turn up the volume to get resolution. We have that as much as the next guy. We turn it up because it brings a tactile feel that is not there otherwise. We don't do this with every piece of music or even most music. But when the content demands it, and your system is capable of doing it without distortion, then it is a wonderful thing.

I suspect high SPL is hard to accomplish with LPs due to massive room vibration. No?

 

[MylesBAstor]

We don't either. But for the right content, more pleasure comes from feeling the impact rather than just imagining it.

What musical content are you talking about Amir? Also: what content actually has 120 dB dynamic range on it other than maybe a movie? And what is the theoretical limit and actually encoded dynamic range for digital? And then we can talk about the speaker distortion levels when being played at those levels.

None of us turn up the volume to get resolution. We have that as much as the next guy. We turn it up because it brings a tactile feel that is not there otherwise. We don't do this with every piece of music or even most music. But when the content demands it, and your system is capable of doing it without distortion, then it is a wonderful thing.

I suspect high SPL is hard to accomplish with LPs due to massive room vibration. No?

Not necessarily. Put the table in another room. Know a few people who do that. Of course, there are other limitations in the record making process that affects dynamic range.

OTOH, I get all the dynamics I need with my 15 ips machine, thank you Arnold Overtures does just fine.

But outside of DVDs what recordings are you referring to with massive dynamic range?

 

[muralman1]

Any sustained music over 90 cB will harm your hearing.

 

[DonH50]

Note that 120 dB SPL need not equate to 120 dB dynamic range... If the quietest passage is at 60 dB SPL, not unreasonable to get well over the room noise, and you have a recording with 60 dB dynamic range (not unreasonable for a tape or CD), you are at 120 dB for the loudest peak (however transient that might be). - Don

 

[amirm]

What content is this Amir? Thing is this: what content actually has 120 dB dynamic range on it other than a movie? And what is the theoretical limit and actually encoded dynamic range for digital?

I am not speaking of 120db. You keep mixing my comments to that of Mark even though I stated my case differently than his. I explained at getting different levels of sensation. I explained how it can move your clothing. I get that listening to this CD:

Track 2 if you want to be specific

In another thread, I asked for a list of high dynamic tracks. I have yet to purchase many of them but the list was long: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...amic-Range-Music&highlight=high+dynamic+range

Not necessarily. Put the table in another room. Know a few people who do that.

Is yours in a different room?

OTOH, I get all the dynamics I need with my 15 ips machine, thank you Arnold Overtures does just fine.

Tape can sound wonderful although I would worry a bit about quiet portions having more noise.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Note that 120 dB SPL need not equate to 120 dB dynamic range... If the quietest passage is at 60 dB SPL, not unresaonable to get well over the room noise, and you have a recording with 60 dB dynamic range (not unreasonable for a tape or CD), you are at 120 dB for the loudest peak (however transient that might be). - Don

Sorry you're right.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I am not speaking of 120db. You keep mixing my comments to that of Mark even though I stated my case differently than his. I explained at getting different levels of sensation. I explained how it can move your clothing. I get that listening to this CD:

Track 2 if you want to be specific

In another thread, I asked for a list of high dynamic tracks. I have yet to purchase many of them but the list was long: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...amic-Range-Music&highlight=high+dynamic+range

Wouldn't know 'bout that. Gave all my DCD away years ago. In fact, sold all my UK pressings, etc to another reviewer since it wasn't my cup of tea

And yes, I've had my pants flap listening to an audio system. So what? I don't ever remember that happening at any concert I've been to. Again, it's that question of spectacular vs. real.

Is yours in a different room?

No never said it was but that wasn't the point. You were speaking in generalities and I pointed out that the table being in the room isn't necessarily the most important limitation nor the biggest issue with LPs and dynamic range.

Tape can sound wonderful although I would worry a bit about quiet portions having more noise.

I don't. For those who do, there's digital.