Why Tube Amps Sound Different (and better) Than SS Amps

[microstrip]

(...) Yeah you can always make an enclosure of our cheap MDF. And look at it's resonance and decay characteristics. Now that's what I call voicing a speaker.

Yes - then you can use some DSP to compensate for them!

Some manufacturers use common or cheaper materials - but they associate them with others, and must use special shapes, cutting processes and assembly techniques. As they spend a lot doing it, they also use a great looking expensive veneer or exquisite paint finish on top - the product deserves it.

 

[Atmasphere]

BTW, regarding that old Stereophile thread, if you read it through you'll find that Ted Denny eventually admits I was right, that the BS "data" he posted for his magic ART bowls was in fact BS.

Ethan, FWIW you and I are on the same page there. Nor do I have any troubles with your take on the magic pebbles- another obvious hoax.

The (professional) problem I have with you seems to be two-fold- first, you commit the same thing that Ted was apparently doing- in 'debunking' power cords you failed to back that up with actual real data and its now shown that your position was BS. Pot calling the kettle black apparently. The second problem I see is that you have an inflated view of yourself- 'Scienceman', ' I've done and seen it all' etc, when that is clearly not the case. For example despite your 'science' position you seem unaware of how the human ear/brain system can actually translate distortion into tonality. This is why one of your demos on your video debunking video is a fail. Worse, you convince people that don't know any better of a mistaken concept.

To be clear I don't fault you for attempting to flush out a hoaxer. But FWIW high end audio is only mildly more afflicted with them than any other field. That seems to be a human condition as best I can make out.

Just a little tip- if you want credibility (to avoid being seen as a hoaxer yourself), its often useful to fess up when you mess up. Do so now and you will be surprised, but people will take you far more seriously, even in a high end audio forum such as this.

 

[rbbert]

...The (professional) problem I have with you seems to be two-fold- first, you commit the same thing that Ted was apparently doing- in 'debunking' power cords you failed to back that up with actual real data and its now shown that your position was BS. Pot calling the kettle black apparently. The second problem I see is that you have an inflated view of yourself- 'Scienceman', ' I've done and seen it all' etc, when that is clearly not the case...

This is really the only problem I've ever seen with Ethan's participation here, the "I'm always right even when I'm not" attitude.

 

[microstrip]

The old question "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" is asked in the books of F. Toole "Sound Reproduction" and Ethan Winer "The Audio Expert". F. Toole answer: Yes and no. And he explains the complex reasons why he thinks so. Ethan answer is just - I hope it is obvious the answer to the preceding question is yes.

If you accept the reductionist consequences of this yes and the permanent anti-audiophile style, you may find that Ethan book is filled with a lot of great audio information. But IMHO no way it is "Everything You Need to Know About Audio".

 

[Orb]

This is really the only problem I've ever seen with Ethan's participation here, the "I'm always right even when I'm not" attitude.

TBH that goes for a lot of us on here one we start to become engaged and involved in any topical discussion, including myself.
It becomes a position argument, that can drag us into a reinforcing bias-attitude *shrug*.
Even knowing this and how the mechanism works... still manage to do this myself a lot on this forum
And yes I would say most of us on here do as well.
Cheers
Orb

 

[rbbert]

I can't deny that, but Ethan seems to carry it to an extreme.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

Wow. Just wow. In reading the tail end of this thread, it is evident that more than a couple of persons participating have real serious, erroneous premises with regard to existentialism. And, as I've experienced myself in several past instances of revealing flaws in products from various manufacturers, the ad hominem attacks are quite plentiful and un-checked. Such an environment does not harbor a healthy debate. It's become "I'm right and you're just a nobody, so you're wrong," in quite a few instances.
I do realize that a lot of people have enormous wealth tied up in audio gear which, for many, is a status symbol. Heaven forbid should the emperor be found out to be naked!
What I've come to find is that the world is full of people with more money than sense. They listen to the sales pitch, fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars and decide that it can't be wrong.
I'm sorry, but anyone tells me that they spent $120K on a single 2A3 monoblock amplifier and tell me that it somehow is magical, I simply see the fool that was parted from his $120K.
This thread was somewhat entertaining until it turned into a pissin' contest. I'm outa' here.

 

[rbbert]

Wow. Just wow. In reading the tail end of this thread, it is evident that more than a couple of persons participating have real serious, erroneous premises with regard to existentialism. And, as I've experienced myself in several past instances of revealing flaws in products from various manufacturers, the ad hominem attacks are quite plentiful and un-checked. Such an environment does not harbor a healthy debate. It's become "I'm right and you're just a nobody, so you're wrong," in quite a few instances.
I do realize that a lot of people have enormous wealth tied up in audio gear which, for many, is a status symbol. Heaven forbid should the emperor be found out to be naked!
What I've come to find is that the world is full of people with more money than sense. They listen to the sales pitch, fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars and decide that it can't be wrong.
I'm sorry, but anyone tells me that they spent $120K on a single 2A3 monoblock amplifier and tell me that it somehow is magical, I simply see the fool that was parted from his $120K.
This thread was somewhat entertaining until it turned into a pissin' contest. I'm outa' here.

This really doesn't make sense. It's not your $120k or your SET amp, so how can you say that (calling someone a fool)? More, one controversial member with (at least) less education and (perhaps) less knowledge is repeatedly insulting others' judgment and opinions; you don't think a response is appropriate?

 

[mep]

Mark, its tough being privy to how this audio stuff works on this site. The final answer to everything is "I hear it". An unassailable and non-negoptiable position no matter how absurd to those in the know!

Do you listen to fist full of specifications or do you listen to what the gear sounds like in your system? It better boil down to what you hear ("I hear it") in the end. It doesn't do much good to scratch your head and look at the spec sheet and wonder why you don't like the way the gear sounds when the specs say it should sound wonderful.

 

[rbbert]

Mark, its tough being privy to how this audio stuff works on this site. The final answer to everything is "I hear it". An unassailable and non-negoptiable position no matter how absurd to those in the know!

Just curious; where are those measurements demonstrating the unequivocal superiority of MCH over stereo?

 

[treitz3]

Do you listen to fist full of specifications or do you listen to what the gear sounds like in your system? It better boil down to what you hear ("I hear it") in the end. It doesn't do much good to scratch your head and look at the spec sheet and wonder why you don't like the way the gear sounds when the specs say it should sound wonderful.

I think Mr. Nelson Pass has eloquently stated something I'd like to add to your statement.

Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not.

Tom

 

[rockitman]

Wow. Just wow. In reading the tail end of this thread, it is evident that more than a couple of persons participating have real serious, erroneous premises with regard to existentialism. And, as I've experienced myself in several past instances of revealing flaws in products from various manufacturers, the ad hominem attacks are quite plentiful and un-checked. Such an environment does not harbor a healthy debate. It's become "I'm right and you're just a nobody, so you're wrong," in quite a few instances.
I do realize that a lot of people have enormous wealth tied up in audio gear which, for many, is a status symbol. Heaven forbid should the emperor be found out to be naked!
What I've come to find is that the world is full of people with more money than sense. They listen to the sales pitch, fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars and decide that it can't be wrong.
I'm sorry, but anyone tells me that they spent $120K on a single 2A3 monoblock amplifier and tell me that it somehow is magical, I simply see the fool that was parted from his $120K.
This thread was somewhat entertaining until it turned into a pissin' contest. I'm outa' here.

Wow are you presumptuous !!! Thumbs down on that broad-brush insulting post. You and Ethan make good company.

 

[rbbert]

Got me confused with someone else, I have not talked about multichannel stereo measurments over stereo.

But you have repeatedly asserted the superiority of MCH; it used to be part of your signature.

 

[rbbert]

Ah, I'm sorry. There was someone who used to talk about the sound of a band in a park near his home; I thought it was you, but it must have been someone else (with a similar name?) who no longer posts

 

[MylesBAstor]

 

[MylesBAstor]

Wow are you presumptuous !!! Thumbs down on that broad-brush insulting post. You and Ethan make good company.

From people who when repeatedly asked what high-end components they have heard, suddenly go mute. Of course not. Or make idiotic statements like a tube amp from the '70s sounds better than SOTA from today. Pardon me while I barf. I'm sorry but anyone who says that has zero, zip, nada credibility. I've heard them all and not in this dimension! They haven't heard crap; all they did was look at the product spec sheet.

 

[thedudeabides]

BTW,

Oh my.

I appreciate self confidence to a point.

Enough said.

GG

 

[MylesBAstor]

Oh my.

I appreciate self confidence to a point.

Enough said.

GG

Or maybe when Scienceman compares himself to Bill Gates?

 

[Ethan Winer]

in 'debunking' power cords you failed to back that up with actual real data and its now shown that your position was BS.

If you believe "it's now shown" that my statements are BS you are truly deluded. Nor is it my job to prove that swapping one competent power cord for another makes an audible difference. As they say, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof, and to anyone who understand even basic electricity, the claims for power cords are indeed extraordinary. None the less, I have tried countless times to provide proof, by repeatedly asking believers to let me test them blind. So I'm not the one ducking and failing to offer proof! It's Myles Astor, Michael Fremer, and others in the forums who live near me but refuse to prove they can hear what they claim.

you have an inflated view of yourself- 'Scienceman'

If you didn't realize that's a joke, then I guess the joke's on you.

if you want credibility (to avoid being seen as a hoaxer yourself), its often useful to fess up when you mess up.

Like Sean Hannity, you can make up stuff like this all day long, but it doesn't make it true. I did mess up an audio test a few years ago at Gearslutz, and I did admit it. I have no idea what you're talking about here.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

I don't see a single recording or mixing credit on www.allmusic.com for Ethan.

Ah yes, the old Mixerman logic. "I have a good ear for turning the knobs to make stuff sound good, so that proves I also understand audio science and electronics and how digital summing works etc."

I never claimed to be an expert mix engineer, and that has zero bearing on the validity of my statements here. Though surely more than 1.5 Million views on my Cello Rondo music video that I wrote, performed, recorded, and mixed all by myself must be worth something.

--Ethan