Why don't speakers incorporate a subwoofer into their cabinet?

[JackD201]

Aye. Clean deep bass is the key to scale. Scientifically proven too.

 

[GaryProtein]

The secret to achieving realism is to move the right amount of air, not necessarily lots of air.

Just cranking up the volume control on the subwoofer doesn't create realism. You need clean deep bass in realistic (not necessarily massive) amounts. I have heard several systems where the subwoofer was turned up to accentuate bass, and string quartets, one of the types of ensembles that if "near miked" can sound like they are in your room, didn't sound the least bit real to me.

Also, having numerous 1800 watt (or other large amps) doesn't do you any good if you can't get 1800 watts out of the wall for each of them.

 

[JackD201]

The secret to achieving realism is to move the right amount of air, not necessarily lots of air.

Just cranking up the volume control on the subwoofer doesn't create realism. You need clean deep bass in realistic (not necessarily massive) amounts. I have heard several systems where the subwoofer was turned up to accentuate bass, and string quartets, one of the types of ensembles that if "near miked" can sound like they are in your room, didn't sound the least bit real to me.

Also, having numerous 1800 watt (or other large amps) doesn't do you any good if you can't get 1800 watts out of the wall for each of them.

That's where skill comes into play. One does not go full throttle into a hairpin turn.

 

[garylkoh]

and I would like Gary to chime in with the 12 woofers in the G 1.2 column, .. there has to be some DSP in there too ...

No DSP in there. We get flat down to 16Hz with the servo-control. The accelerometer in the woofer senses acceleration and modulates power accordingly. We can go down essentially to DC if necessary, but that requires a woofer with a very long throw. Problem with such a long throw (XMAX) is that then distortion at higher frequency goes up. I have no wish to win the "how low can you go" sweepstakes. For real world music, 16Hz is more than adequate. I think that we at a nice FR/price/distortion trade off with the G1.2's.

 

[garylkoh]

That's where skill comes into play. One does not go full throttle into a hairpin turn.

Coming into right hand hairpin, split second before entry sharp left quarter, full throttle, sharp right full, lift-off, trail throttle, correct, exit, full throttle.

Not in a modern car though......

 

[mep]

The secret to achieving realism is to move the right amount of air, not necessarily lots of air.

I kind of understand your statement and I kind of don't. Ideally, your speakers are going to move the amount of air that was captured by the recording from the instruments that were recorded. I guess that would define the "right amount of air."

Just cranking up the volume control on the subwoofer doesn't create realism.

Who said it did?

You need clean deep bass in realistic (not necessarily massive) amounts.

We hold these truths to be self-evident...

Also, having numerous 1800 watt (or other large amps) doesn't do you any good if you can't get 1800 watts out of the wall for each of them.

That would take a 15A outlet to pull that off.

 

[carolkoh]

Coming into right hand hairpin, split second before entry sharp left quarter, full throttle, sharp right full, lift-off, trail throttle, correct, exit, full throttle.

Not in a modern car though......

You never taught me that!

 

[JackD201]

Coming into right hand hairpin, split second before entry sharp left quarter, full throttle, sharp right full, lift-off, trail throttle, correct, exit, full throttle.

Not in a modern car though......

Aha! WRC style! I was thinking F1

 

[garylkoh]

You never taught me that!

You've always had front drive cars - starting with your first, a Mini Cooper

 

[andromedaaudio]

To me the reason would be , a built in powered sub would limit amplification choices and I dont really like most subunits that are on the market , because of efficiency (usually ver low )and membrane material .
I want my bassdrivers to be driven by boulder or zanden amps , not digital amps , some listening session i choose the zanden the other evening boulder

 

[puroagave]

To me the reason would be , a built in powered sub would limit amplification choices and I dont really like most subunits that are on the market , because of efficiency (usually ver low )and membrane material .
I want my bassdrivers to be driven by boulder or zanden amps , not digital amps , some listening session i choose the zanden the other evening boulder

if anything built-in powered subs give you many more options to power the top half i.e low power SET, etc. i like class-d on the bass, with a dampening factor >1000, imo they're taylor-made for bass.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Good okay but beat the boulder ??
Good tube bass is different from either digital or SS , different as in more room fill, rounded /softer , more natural, more definition

a good designed speaker these days doesnt need to be limited of of set amps , there are a lot of excellent high efficiency units these days on the market , with one can built a high efficieny linear high impedance loudspeaker capable of being driven properly by a 8 watt per channel amp

For a difficult speaker please try the octave jubilee monos and put on some big orchestral music , tell me the difference

 

[mep]

Good tube bass is different from either digital or SS , different as in more room fill, rounded /softer , more natural, more definition…

While I agree that tube bass is different than SS bass and it is more “rounded/softer,” I don’t agree it is more accurate. Tube bass doesn’t have the extension and overall linearity that great SS bass has. While I enjoyed the bass quality of my ARC VS115 with KT-120 tubes, it didn’t really compare with the bass from my Krell KSA-250.

Ask Myles what differences he hears in the bottom end with the Cello amps he has now vice his ART amps.

 

[JackD201]

While I agree that tube bass is different than SS bass and it is more “rounded/softer,” I don’t agree it is more accurate. Tube bass doesn’t have the extension and overall linearity that great SS bass has. While I enjoyed the bass quality of my ARC VS115 with KT-120 tubes, it didn’t really compare with the bass from my Krell KSA-250.

Ask Myles what differences he hears in the bottom end with the Cello amps he has now vice his ART amps.

True especially if onboard subs have plate amps which use your main amplifier via high level as their input stage. They will take on the characteristics to a great degree of the main amps. That said there are fast and extended tube amps down below. More circuit dependent than on tube type IME, given an appropriate loudspeaker or succeeding stage to drive of course.

 

[kach22i]

Maybe I missed it, but so far no mentioned that deep base is room dependent, favoring flexibility in location, a location perhaps different than the main speakers.

Open baffle bass, very cool.

Tube bass also awesome. I think it's more natural or realistic, if not as impact impressive as solid state.

 

[JackD201]

I believe it's been mentioned. In my speakers the subs have a delay compensation circuit. I'm not sure about others that have them in the same box. I imagine the better ones would.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I suspect it also depends on the cut off freq where the active sub takes over , whether it is 50 hz or 150 hz for example , having in the 50 hz case most of the work being done by the poweramp instead of the digitalamp .
The positive thing being off course the adjustability of the powered sub , to be honest i dont have a lot of personal expirience with subs at home .
I did hear the new big top model kharma sub lately with the exquisite midi (with the new driver ) and i wasnt that impressed of the combination.
I never heard the wilson sub , which i reckon would be a kind of a sub benchmark , although most of the high$$$ systems in the US seem to be playing with Gotham subs , kind of strange i thought , because the big alexandria bassdrivers ought to be able to put a lot of bass energy in the room , maybe the alexandria woofer module is a little low in efficiency compared to the MTM .
Or maybe i am just bassshy
The X1 which i never heard used other (focal) bass drivers than the focals which are used today(as seen from pics ).

My recollection of the big wilsons is that the maxx 2 put out great bass ( maybe even a little bit to much, room dependant off course ) and the X 2 a little less (note i only heard it for half an hour at a dealer on not familiar music), although its a great speaker as is the maxx 2

 

[LL21]

I suspect it also depends on the cut off freq where the active sub takes over , whether it is 50 hz or 150 hz for example...
The positive thing being off course the adjustability of the powered sub , to be honest i dont have a lot of personal expirience with subs at home .
I did hear the new big top model kharma sub lately with the exquisite midi (with the new driver ) and i wasnt that impressed of the combination.
I never heard the wilson sub , which i reckon would be a kind of a sub benchmark , although most of the high$$$ systems in the US seem to be playing with Gotham subs , kind of strange i thought , because the big alexandria bassdrivers ought to be able to put a lot of bass energy in the room , maybe the alexandria woofer module is a little low in efficiency compared to the MTM .
Or maybe i am just bassshy
The X1 which i never heard used other (focal) bass drivers than the focals which are used today(as seen from pics ).

My recollection of the big wilsons is that the maxx 2 put out great bass ( maybe even a little bit to much, room dependant off course ) and the X 2 a little less (note i only heard it for half an hour at a dealer on not familiar music), although its a great speaker as is the maxx 2

Hi Andromedaaudio,

Most of the Alexandria/X1 owners i know use a sub with them...not all but most. The ones i have spoken with including the Wilson dealer here cut off around 38hz-41hz. I cut off at 41hz. I think Steve posted he is around 38hz or 39hz IIRC. It makes a big difference (to me)...i have a 40db rolloff above it, so dead silent above, but it still generates a lot of bass during orchestral, close miked quartets with bass, and even during certain live recordings where someone was stomping his foot below the mike.

I have spoken with Wilson about this quite a lot, and they have said the X1 bass in their opinion remains state of the art in performance when set up well...many of the improvements in this speaker line over the years has been in the mids/treble/ease,soundstage, etc. One Wilson person even said he preferred the X1 bass over the X2 Series 1 bass.

 

[andromedaaudio]

great to have some first hand info lloyd , i just reread the m. collumns review , and its a great looking speaker even more edgy/stealthy looking than the X2

 

[LL21]

great to have some first hand info lloyd , i just reread the m. collumns review , and its a great looking speaker even more edgy/stealthy looking than the X2

I still have Martin Colloms review as well...plus he posted it on his website Hificritic.com along with SF Guarneri, Celestion SL6000 i believe...some real greats in speaker history. I spoke with martin colloms about the X1 before getting them, and he was very helpful and very enthusiastic saying he still did not think current electronics would quite reach the limits of those speakers.