What's the best sports convertible for $60K in cash, new or used?

[tdh888]

Whats to hate about a car that will swap ends with you ...[/QUOTE]

Its one challenge when your driving a 911. I expereienced it 1st hand when I took my 930 for the first time to its limit in the race track and I was taking the corner at the limit & I accidentaly stepped on the brake and lift off throttle and from understeer the car went into oversteer and car spun. I envy the guy who was driving an M roadster in front of me I think his car has better handling characteristics and maybe his a better driver than I am. But I had fun taming the beast.

 

[Bill Hart]

We've had a 2001 M Roadster (Z3 based) for 10 years. The 2001 and 2002 USA models had a 315 HP S54 engine similar to that in the E46 M3 cars of the same years. Earlier models had a 240 HP S52 engine as used in the E36 M3 cars.

The engine has a very flat torque curve and yet it revs quickly over 7500 RPM. Sounds great with the top down. It purrs at low to medium RPMs and screams at high RPMs. I test drove a Boxster S before buying the BMW and felt that the Boxster engine was not very entertaining in comparison.

The steering is quick, precise and provides nice feedback. The semi-trailing rear suspension certainly has lower limits than a more modern suspension and behavior at the limit is less docile but on public roads the suspension works very well. The car is short and narrow so it has a very snug, personal feeling inside. Back roads feel wider than they would if I were driving a Corvette. Just driving around town is a sensual pleasure in the M Roadster. We take back roads whenever possible in the BMW to enjoy the car more completely.

The M Roadster's beltline is lower than that of most modern cars. I can rest my elbow on the door and my 5 foot tall wife has good visibility.

Our M Roadster still has under 28,000 miles so we'll probably be driving it until we can't drive anymore. We use a hot hatch (Subaru WRX and now a VW GTI) for most daily driving and long trips so we don't put very many junk miles on the M Roadster. My wife urges me to rent a Boxster (and a few other cars as well) to get a taste of owning one.

The M coupe is much more rigid than the Roadster. However, reinforcing the differential mount and replacing the factory sub-frame bushings with stiffer after-market bushings improves the Roadster's handling.

The Boxster has better handling than the M Roadster. I considered a Boxster as an alternative but the prospect of very expensive services and repairs was a bit daunting. Even a BMW can be more expensive than I'd like to drive. Sometimes being comfortable with the cost of ownership is more important than going for the "best". Having a very good convertible sports car has been a joy.

Bill

I remember that little M coupe- it was not a very common car, and it was quick. I never drove it. Kinda looked like a bedroom slipper.

 

[Bill Hart]

I guess you guys have never driven an Z8 ...

There is nothing tractor like about them , same as modern Maserati's , drivers cars , nothing girlie or tractor like about them ..

Whats to hate about a car that will swap ends with you ...

Wayne, my comment was not the tractor one, but I drove the first series of new Maseratis, nice engine, not a great sports car- too heavy, cowl flex, etc. I would assume the latest crop, which looks bigger, addressed the cowl flex, but they are lux touring cars, not hard core sports cars.
As to the Z8, it also struck me as a tourer? I never drove one, maybe I missed something. Am I right that the Alpina was only automatic? That's not very sporting....

 

[Old Listener]

I would tend to agree with you. The Z3 had the front suspension of the E36 and the rear suspension of the E30. The car wasn't very rigid and I found it difficult to predict exactly what the car was going to do. Strangely, the E30 and the E36 were both beautiful handling cars but the Z3 was really quite disappointing.

We drove a BMW 2002 for 13 years (same semi-trailing arm suspension). A very nice car for its time but not in the same league as an M Roadster for handling. A stock Z3 isn't in the same league either.

---
This thread has moved from talking about sports cars you might choose to slagging cars other people mentioned. I see very little objectivity in that slogging.

Bill

 

[Bill Hart]

We drove a BMW 2002 for 13 years (same semi-trailing arm suspension). A very nice car for its time but not in the same league as an M Roadster for handling. A stock Z3 isn't in the same league either.

---
This thread has moved from talking about sports cars you might choose to slagging cars other people mentioned. I see very little objectivity in that slogging.

Bill

True, on both counts. Whenever I see a 2002 around (there are a few here), it reminds me of how heavy, big and complicated the cars have gotten. Look at how small and simple a 2002 is. (I'd be happy with a small bumper Tii). On slagging others, I don't think it is mean-spirited, I think folks are just criticial of some of the suggestions. Kind of unavoidable.

 

[Keith_W]

True, on both counts. Whenever I see a 2002 around (there are a few here), it reminds me of how heavy, big and complicated the cars have gotten. Look at how small and simple a 2002 is.

You are certainly right on that count. I used to own a 105-series Alfa GTV (contemporary to the 2002tii). It had a beam axle rear suspension, but the car was light, rigid, and a hoot to drive. Ultimately a 2012 Toyota Corolla with wide modern tires can go around corners faster and with less fuss. This is what technology gives you.

The traction and dynamic limits of modern cars is very high. In an older car like a 1970's Alfa or BMW, you will get plenty of warning that you are approaching the traction limit before the car gives out on you. There was once a corner where the posted legal limit is 60km/h, but most people slowed down to 30-40km/h to take it. It was wide and safe and had a nice run-off area - so I used to try to take it at 60km/h In my first car (1981 Corolla) even at 40km/h it would lean into the corner and understeer. In the Alfa, it would understeer at 50km/h, then I lift off my foot slightly, then it tucks in and goes around. When I first got my Porsche, on my very first go I just turned the steering wheel and it went round at 60km/h without fuss. Of course, having driven the same corner for >20 years (and in more than a dozen cars) I now know it really well.

In a modern car, you have to be travelling insanely fast (much faster than is legal, or my balls will let me) before the whole thing lets go, and when it does let go you better be prepared for it because you won't have much time to react.

 

[A.wayne]

Whats to hate about a car that will swap ends with you ...
Its one challenge when your driving a 911. I expereienced it 1st hand when I took my 930 for the first time to its limit in the race track and I was taking the corner at the limit & I accidentaly stepped on the brake and lift off throttle and from understeer the car went into oversteer and car spun. I envy the guy who was driving an M roadster in front of me I think his car has better handling characteristics and maybe his a better driver than I am. But I had fun taming the beast.

OK, follow me now ....

Hard Braking, release, hard turn in , apply power, push, lift, apply , lift, apply, lift apply, gently fast smooth application , see apex full throttle , boost rising just at Apex , smile on your face....

You drive 911's (old style) on the throttle as much as the steering ....

With 914-6 , you can trail brake and turn in on apex ...solid as a rock ....

 

[A.wayne]

Wayne, my comment was not the tractor one, but I drove the first series of new Maseratis, nice engine, not a great sports car- too heavy, cowl flex, etc. I would assume the latest crop, which looks bigger, addressed the cowl flex, but they are lux touring cars, not hard core sports cars.
As to the Z8, it also struck me as a tourer? I never drove one, maybe I missed something. Am I right that the Alpina was only automatic? That's not very sporting....

Not sure about the Alpina, but the Z8 was fun , fun , fun, it's not a track car, not as fast as a Porsche cab on the track, the Z8 doesn't like driving straight , reminded me of my CSL, but with v8 power ...

 

[A.wayne]

You are certainly right on that count. I used to own a 105-series Alfa GTV (contemporary to the 2002tii). It had a beam axle rear suspension, but the car was light, rigid, and a hoot to drive. Ultimately a 2012 Toyota Corolla with wide modern tires can go around corners faster and with less fuss. This is what technology gives you.

The traction and dynamic limits of modern cars is very high. In an older car like a 1970's Alfa or BMW, you will get plenty of warning that you are approaching the traction limit before the car gives out on you. There was once a corner where the posted legal limit is 60km/h, but most people slowed down to 30-40km/h to take it. It was wide and safe and had a nice run-off area - so I used to try to take it at 60km/h In my first car (1981 Corolla) even at 40km/h it would lean into the corner and understeer. In the Alfa, it would understeer at 50km/h, then I lift off my foot slightly, then it tucks in and goes around. When I first got my Porsche, on my very first go I just turned the steering wheel and it went round at 60km/h without fuss. Of course, having driven the same corner for >20 years (and in more than a dozen cars) I now know it really well.

In a modern car, you have to be travelling insanely fast (much faster than is legal, or my balls will let me) before the whole thing lets go, and when it does let go you better be prepared for it because you won't have much time to react.

Yes there is no comparison dynamically , new cars to old, the old cars lose out big time, where the old beats New is on personality , it's not like anyone is going to name their new Bimmer "Floyd" as my friend did his 2002Tii ...

Find a curvy mountain Road and a new M3 will not excite Like and old E30 M3 EVO .........

 

[tdh888]

OK, follow me now ....

Hard Braking, release, hard turn in , apply power, push, lift, apply , lift, apply, lift apply, gently fast smooth application , see apex full throttle , boost rising just at Apex , smile on your face....

You drive 911's (old style) on the throttle as much as the steering ....

With 914-6 , you can trail brake and turn in on apex ...solid as a rock ....

When we hit the track again next year I will follow your tip. There is an old saying also when you drive this old 930's "slow in and fast out"

I always wanted to have a 914 when I was in med school we had one but it was a bad sample it was sort of a money pit and we never got around in restoring her properly. Now I want one even if its a 4 cyl but can modify the engine for more power so I can use it for our club vintage racing events. Prices for 914/6 are high. So will just go for a 914 4 cyl

 

[A.wayne]

Yes, good club car , very inexpensive to track , upgrade the master and pads for excellent braking, or use 911 hubs and fuch's wheels. They are slow, which is good, teaches you to be smooth, catch them up in the turns , fall 4 cars behind on the straight kind of fun ....


Regards,

 

[tdh888]

Thanks for the tip Wayne. To the original poster of this thread the 914/6 is also a good candidate. This cars are priced arount $50~60k in excellent condition and it will surely appreciate in a few yrs. time. One thing only is that people wont know that what you have is a special 914, but what matter is you know your car is rare and the old porsche enthusiasts.

 

[Bruce B]

Don't think anyone has mentioned the Viper! You can buy them all day long for under $60k!

Out of the Top 10 Fastest Production Cars that Motor Trend has lapped around Laguna Seca, the Viper beat all of them at 1:35.12. The list included the Corvette, Lambo, McLaren, GT-R and others

 

[puroagave]

Don't think anyone has mentioned the Viper! You can buy them all day long for under $60k!

Out of the Top 10 Fastest Production Cars that Motor Trend has lapped around Laguna Seca, the Viper beat all of them at 1:35.12. The list included the Corvette, Lambo, McLaren, GT-R and others

good choice. le mans winning provenance too. i have driven a few, they're pretty quick but its hard to ignore the truck engine pedigree - the antithesis of refinement :b

 

[Bill Hart]

good choice. le mans winning provenance too. i have driven a few, they're pretty quick but its hard to ignore the truck engine pedigree - the antithesis of refinement :b

Since Lambo started with tractors, I don't hold that against them. But, since I'd probably rather drive a 289 Cobra than a 427, I'm not sure that's a car I'd really enjoy. I have watched drivers do very effective 'bat-turns' in Vipers though. They have enormous power. Are they even made any more?

 

[Bruce B]

. Are they even made any more?

They stopped for a couple of years and are coming out with an all new 2013 model under the Chrysler SRT brand

I see the sound system is by Harman!

 

[puroagave]

Since Lambo started with tractors, I don't hold that against them. But, since I'd probably rather drive a 289 Cobra than a 427, I'm not sure that's a car I'd really enjoy. I have watched drivers do very effective 'bat-turns' in Vipers though. They have enormous power. Are they even made any more?

funny you should say that, chrysler owned lambo when the viper srt10 was developed and used their know-how in engine development - so the legend goes. the 2013 srt is the latest car w/ 640 ponies, not out yet. id rather a 289 cobra too - doesnt meet the budget unless its an all-aluminum kirkham clone, still over budget at ~$100k.

 

[Bill Hart]

funny you should say that, chrysler owned lambo when the viper srt10 was developed and used their know-how in engine development - so the legend goes. the 2013 srt is the latest car w/ 640 ponies, not out yet. id rather a 289 cobra too - doesnt meet the budget unless its an all-aluminum kirkham clone, still over budget at ~$100k.

And Vipers weren't just about horsepower, were they? They had crazy torque figures....
You know, I love all cars, the big, the bad and the ugly. My preferences are really personal at this point, maybe that's true for everybody, but raw power, I dunno. There are so many other things a sports car is about.

 

[A.wayne]

Don't think anyone has mentioned the Viper! You can buy them all day long for under $60k!

Out of the Top 10 Fastest Production Cars that Motor Trend has lapped around Laguna Seca, the Viper beat all of them at 1:35.12. The list included the Corvette, Lambo, McLaren, GT-R and others

Yeah, used to want one until i sat in it , give me a ZO6 instead .....

 

[A.wayne]

You can always get one of these .....chassis built in So Africa ..