What's best for a $2500 pre/pro?

[DonH50]

So, I have an almost-new Pioneer SC-27 serving mostly as a pre/pro in my media room. I was at 5 channels, using two Emotiva amps, but recently re-arranged and am back to 7 channels so I am using two amps in the Pio for the rears. We have another room in the house that could use a system, and an older system on its last legs, so I am considering rotating things around and using the Pio elsewhere to put its amps back in use. My oldest AVR will likely end up as the rear amp, though if my ancient Hafler still works it may take over. This leaves me with an opportunity to pick up a new pre/pro for the media room.

Components:
Samsung 52" LCD TV (650-series, I think -- couple of years old)
Oppo 83 source
PS3 and a Wii for the kids (thus the LCD instead of a plasma)
Pioneer SC-27 AVR
Emotiva XPA-2 and XPA-3 amps
Magnepan MG-IIIa L/R, CC3 center, MC1 surrounds
Mirage Omnisat v2 rears (for now; plan to pick up another pair of Maggies)

I have read a bit about the integra DHC-80.1 and upcoming (supposedly) 80.2, plus the Anthem (forgot the number -- not the d2v, the cheaper one), and a couple of others. For various reasons I am little less interested in a "mainstream" Pioneer/Denon/Sony/Yamaha unit though if one should be in the running by all means let me know! While I like my Emo amps, there are features their pre/pro lacks and the on-going mixed reviews are a concern. Flexible room control is a must; the Pio's lack of sub control and 9-band EQ is just enough to drive me nuts, though having wideband group delay adjustment is very cool (despite the fact I cannot seem to figure out how to tweak it myself; it seems to do very well on its own). I am not (maybe barely) familiar with Audyssey (no problems learning it, but I do not know how it compares to Pioneer's MCACC).

So, I throw it out for y'all: With a budget of say $1500 to $2500 for a shiny new pre/pro, What's Best?

Thanks! - Don

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Hard to say what's best (even in this forum) but, in your range, I would certainly consider the Integra 80.2 as it has the most up-to-date feature set. Also consider the incipient Marantz AV-7005. Both have Audyssey (which is, imho, superior to MCACC if less hands-on flexible) and both are AudysseyPro compatible (which improves Audyssey and offers some volitional expression). If the low-priced Anthem has full-blown ARC, then it should also be a candidate.I have not heard either of them. I have not auditioned any of these.

Kal

 

[DonH50]

Thanks Kal -- refreshingly honest! I'll take "I haven't heard them" over two pages of babble based upon reading other reviews and forums (fora?) any day. I do respect your opinions since you get to live with all this stuff every day, a luxury I no longer have in my day job.

The lower Anthem unit (AVM 50v) does have ARC; not sure what if any differences between ARC on the low and high end units (or, high and higher? ) -- have to look into that. Using the PC for processing, and potentially giving me "tweak" access, is somewhat appealing. I need to research Audyssey more and see what I can tweak after it has run. With my Pioneer, I run MCACC, then use my own measurement system to tweak in the final response by playing with levels, EQ, PEQ, etc. It does not allow me to tweak the group delay parameters, not a biggie, and does virtually nothing below 60 Hz, a major pain. I also need better PEQ control (limited bandwidth, only cut/no gain, etc.) and would love more EQ bands (9 is just enough to initially tantalize and then later taunt when the correction you need falls between band centers...)


Thanks! - Don

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Thanks Kal -- refreshingly honest! I'll take "I haven't heard them" over two pages of babble based upon reading other reviews and forums (fora?) any day. I do respect your opinions since you get to live with all this stuff every day, a luxury I no longer have in my day job.

The lower Anthem unit (AVM 50v) does have ARC; not sure what if any differences between ARC on the low and high end units (or, high and higher? ) -- have to look into that. Using the PC for processing, and potentially giving me "tweak" access, is somewhat appealing. I need to research Audyssey more and see what I can tweak after it has run. With my Pioneer, I run MCACC, then use my own measurement system to tweak in the final response by playing with levels, EQ, PEQ, etc. It does not allow me to tweak the group delay parameters, not a biggie, and does virtually nothing below 60 Hz, a major pain. I also need better PEQ control (limited bandwidth, only cut/no gain, etc.) and would love more EQ bands (9 is just enough to initially tantalize and then later taunt when the correction you need falls between band centers...)


Thanks! - Don

Even the Pro is not as tweaky as MCACC but, unlike MCACC (and from hearsay since I've not used it), it is not based on a regular 9 band PEQ but has many more filters and extends its EQ into the low bass/sub frequencies. Conversely, Pioneer lets you fiddle with the 9band PEQ while Pro only lets you edit the target curve +/- a few dB. All that said, if Audyssey (or ARC) gets the balance right (and you can still tweak channel trims post hoc), why do you need to tweak? I generally do not.

 

[DonH50]

Slight correction: the Pio has 3 bands of PEQ (calls them "standing wave filters") and nine bands of (regular) EQ.

I have to tweak with the Pio because it does not have sufficient frequency resolution in the EQ; amplitude is not a huge deal as the room is fairly well treated. While the Pio does OK, I find that I can do a bit better, especially with the PEQ, with some manual tweaking. I'm also an engineer ("tweakineer"), and have all the toys, so... My system is currently within about +/- 6 dB from 10 Hz to 20 kHz with a couple of peaks/nulls outside that; I shelved the response above about 16 kHz down a few dB because I can't hear that high anymore so might as well save the tweeters.

If Audyssey has the equivalent of even a third-band EQ, or more bands of PEQ, and covers the bass region, I think I'm good. I'd love to be able to try Audyssey and compare to MCACC, but that doesn't seem reasonable. Does anybody stock integra? My nearest dealer appears to be a custom installation place and custom-orders virtually everything so no demo to try out. I could probably borrow another high-end AVR with Audyssey but most dealers don't even seem to do that anymore -- they don't want a demo out of the store. I may visit one just to fiddle with Audyssey, or maybe just need to read up on it. The bottom line is that I need to do my homework on Audyssey.

Thanks again! - Don

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Slight correction: the Pio has 3 bands of PEQ (calls them "standing wave filters") and nine bands of (regular) EQ.

OK. I only know what I have read about MCACC.

If Audyssey has the equivalent of even a third-band EQ, or more bands of PEQ, and covers the bass region, I think I'm good.

It has none of those because it is what it is (room correction) but.......it is possible that some pre/pro might implement a PEQ that could be layered on top of Audyssey. This is doubtful, however, since most products use only as much DSP as is absolutely necessary and that limits how many processes can be run at once. This is really unfortunate since the incremental cost is, probably, not high. For example, note that many processors place limits on using Audyssey, HD decoding and high-rez playback at some point. The only way to avoid that would be to use the external Audyssey Sound Equalizer ($2500).

I'd love to be able to try Audyssey and compare to MCACC, but that doesn't seem reasonable. Does anybody stock integra? My nearest dealer appears to be a custom installation place and custom-orders virtually everything so no demo to try out. I could probably borrow another high-end AVR with Audyssey but most dealers don't even seem to do that anymore -- they don't want a demo out of the store. I may visit one just to fiddle with Audyssey, or maybe just need to read up on it. The bottom line is that I need to do my homework on Audyssey.

I do not know much about retail but I doubt anyone will let you fiddle with Audyssey in store.

 

[DonH50]

Thanks Kal. By now it's clear to all that I need to do my homework on Audyssey.

I do not know much about retail but I doubt anyone will let you fiddle with Audyssey in store.

Just as well, since I play trumpet anyway...


I am surprised nobody else has an opinion? I'm probably at too low a price point for this place... Unless I got lucky and the 80.2 is the best choice. - Don

 

[DonH50]

Read through the Audyssey site -- pretty impressive! I did not know Tomlinson Holman was involved, a big plus for me. We met a few times, though he would not remember me from so long ago (and, I had hair then).

For grins, here's what my room response looks like at the moment (always subject to change; 1/12th-octave):

First, no processing:


After running MCACC:


After manually tweaking:

 

[DonH50]

Dunno' what I was thinking posting room responses here, especially ones that ain't that great...

Anyway, some info about the Integra DHC-80.2 is starting to trickle out, and it sounds like it has MultiEQ XT32 -- hooray! Do I need it? Probably not... But oh boy do I want to try it out! - Don

 

[JackD201]

I recently acquired a Marantz 8003. I don't know if it is the best but I'm satisfied with the performance. I only use it for movies and gaming. Music is through a separate transport, server, dac through a separate preamp. Movies and games go through the pre's fixed gain input. A major factor in choosing it was the availability of XLR inputs and outputs for all channels.

 

[DonH50]

Thanks! Interesting - Kal also suggested a Marantz. If it can live up to their old Model 9 amp then it will be worth it! You also raise a good point re. the XLRs. I was thinking I didn't care about that, then I realized my amps have XLR inputs. I could also take the preamp out from my measuring system on XLRs instead of RCAs. Hmmm... My main issue is the limitations of MCACC in my new Pioneer SC-27, but it did not look like the previous Audyssey generation was that much better. I did little research, however, as a friend of mine (another engineer) had done most of the legwork and we had decided to go the receiver route. Little did I know we'd both be picking up amps a short time later. The latest version of Audyssey looks very impressive! More reading to do.

This could cost me... - Don

 

[JackD201]

I don't think I can compare Saul with Ken, but like I said I'm pretty satisfied. Even playing a CD from the Pioneer Blu via HDMi to the Marantz' onboard DACs was fairly good. Enjoy the hunt Don!

 

[rblnr]

I've used the Onkyo 9.8 for a few years now while some higher end stuff has come and gone for various reasons. One huge thing in it's favor, it just works. The 80.2 could be counted as their 4th gen prepro 9.8 - 9.9 - 80.1 - 80.2 -- not complete overhauls, but they've honed a lot more than Marantz who is only now coming out with their second processor. For the $$$, the 9.8 is excelllent, and there are reasons to believe the 80.1/2 might sound better including upgraded Audyssey and improved jitter rejection vs the 9.8.

This doesn't mean the Marantz won't work out of the box -- it may well benefit from Denon's expertise here (same owner) -- but I'd wait and see with that but have no hesitation with the Onkyo.

 

[audioguy]

At the price point you are considering, consider me an Onkyo/Integra fan-boy. Not perfect but very, very good. And to support Kal, with Audyssey Pro, you still have a fair amount of flexibility. Audyssey has a lot of upside but two things that definitely sets it apart from any EQ (parametric or otherwise), is that (1) it operates in the time domain and (2) as a result, will do a much better job of eliminating bass ringing and improved response at multiple listening positions. Add the Audyssey SubEQ on top of that and you are 99% of the way there. (The next 1% may cost you an additional $10,000).

Another forum has a great Audyssey thread from which you can learn lots. (Can I say that here??)

 

[DonH50]

The more I read the more I am leaning Audyssey and the Integra... Though the new Marantz 7500 looks pretty nice and is cheaper.

To an engineer time and frequency domains are related; can't have one without the other. The Pio does group delay, which impacts time domain response, so I am not sure what Audyssey adds on top of that (more reading). There are a couple of other schemes out there, like ARC, but Audyssey's widespread use and support (and company lineage) is extremely compelling.

Still saving my pennies...

I wander over to "that other forum" now and then, as do several here (shhh, don't tell!)

Thanks folk, this is great! - Don

p.s. Just got a response from Onkyo/Integra after a week or two -- they say they are experiencing a heavy volume of inquiries now; I don't doubt it. I noticed the past couple of new model releases seem to hit in the Sept/Oct timeframe so it's got to be close. Anyway, I got the same answer as everybody else: see the website, no info on the DHC-80.2 now. Also the only authorized dealers are on the website -- bummer, as a search turned up several local dealers who claimed to cary Integra, but the only one on the website is an hour or two away, and as a custom installer didn't have any 80.1's in stock and didn't seem real interested in selling just the unit when I called a couple of weeks ago.

p.p.s. Via a friend, Audyssey says only licensed and trained dealers can get the Pro s/w. I was really hoping to play with it myself. For those of you that have tried it, how much difference did it make? I realize it depends on the expertise and tools you have vs. what the dealer has, but am curious anyway. I will also ping Audyssey myself and ask about obtaining the s/w (or whatever). Tnx - Don

 

[Kal Rubinson]

p.p.s. Via a friend, Audyssey says only licensed and trained dealers can get the Pro s/w. I was really hoping to play with it myself. For those of you that have tried it, how much difference did it make? I realize it depends on the expertise and tools you have vs. what the dealer has, but am curious anyway. I will also ping Audyssey myself and ask about obtaining the s/w (or whatever). Tnx - Don

That is the party line but, if you scan that "other" forum, you will see that many people have purchased the Pro kit from local dealers.

 

[DonH50]

That is good to know, thanks Kal! I have scanned a bit, but there're a lot of posts... - Don

 

[wilson1]

What is the current price /performance leader this yr?

 

[audioguy]

I now have the Integra 80.2 and I am very pleased. Interestingly enough, it does a much better job eliminating bass ringing in the mid and upper bass than my trusty TacT 2.2XP for 2 channel. I would love to see Audyssey implemented on some state of the art hardware platform but short of that, the 80.2 is great. And anyone can get Audyssey Pro. If no one else will get it for you, send me a PM and I will see what I can do. I would love for Audyssey Pro to have the functionality of the TacT as far as selecting crossover points, crossover slopes and fine tuning the target curves, but it is still a heck of a product.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

That is good to know, thanks Kal! I have scanned a bit, but there're a lot of posts... - Don

Depends on your price. ;-)