What SET amplifiers have Realistic Midrange Magic AND have the Great BASS? Rock your Horns!

[Audiocrack]

The impedance of the ribbon driver is suggested by Brad to be a fairly flat and relatively easy to drive 6ohm load with 89dB sensitivity.

Many amplifiers can make sound come out of the Pendragons. But with the option of 150w from a single 833 tube why should Incomsider any other SET?

So Wavac it is going to be? The biggest Wavac power amp is still for sale in Holland.

Btw, the mentioned sensitivity and impedance curve of your Pendragons imply that a 50 watt set amp will do the trick unless you are going to use a huge room and wanna play incredible loud. Your new amps do not have to drive your bass towers; therefore the quality of the set power would for me be more important than the (absolute) numbers of watts.

In my 65m2 room I use with my comparable Genesis 1.1 loudspeakers less than 30 watts (Kondo Gakuoh), albeit pp power.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Fifty watts will make them play, but I subscribe to the philosophy that "excess" power is good for headroom and to achieve a sensation of relaxed sound.

In the 30 watt range I like the Viva Aurora. In the 50 watt range I like the Absolare SET.

 

[Audiocrack]

Fifty watts will make them play, but I subscribe to the philosophy that "excess" power is good for headroom and to achieve a sensation of relaxed sound.

In the 30 watt range I like the Viva Aurora. In the 50 watt range I like the Absolare SET.

Of course it is up to you, but (top notch) quality of the set watts being used would matter to me (much) more than the actual number of the watts provided a certain number of say 30-50 watts can drive your active loudspeakers properly.

But maybe 150 watts with 833 tubes can do both (quality and quantity).

 

[morricab]

The impedance of the ribbon driver is suggested by Brad to be a fairly flat and relatively easy to drive 6ohm load with 89dB sensitivity.

Many amplifiers can make sound come out of the Pendragons. But with the option of 150w from a single 833 tube why should I consider any other SET?

Because you are equating quantity with quality. That tube is not the most linear of SET tube options and so will have it's own distortion character that will be distinctive...if not swamped by other issues in the amp. Maybe it is the best sounding choice but you cannot possibly know this from the power rating...

 

[morricab]

Ron - why can't Flemming tell you this information. They are $160,000 speakers for crying out loud. There should be no suggestion and you should know the impedance swings of your speakers at certain frequencies.

Heck, I can call John Devore and get that info in 5 minutes. Sean Casey too. I imagine Flemming will do the same.

It is a BG driver...the information is available online...the multiple AMT tweeters could be more an issue depending on how they are wired together...however, at the frequencies they operate it is unlikely to be an issue because of the relative little content at very high frequencies.

 

[morricab]

Fifty watts will make them play, but I subscribe to the philosophy that "excess" power is good for headroom and to achieve a sensation of relaxed sound.

In the 30 watt range I like the Viva Aurora. In the 50 watt range I like the Absolare SET.

I subscribe to the "if the first watt sucks then why bother" philosophy...who cares about the 150 other crappy watts. That said, one of my best musical experiences was with the WAVAC HE805 (I think 45 watts) and WAVAC preamp. Sounded REALLY good. I haven't heard this big one with the 833 tube...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Because you are equating quantity with quality. That tube is not the most linear of SET tube options and so will have it's own distortion character that will be distinctive...if not swamped by other issues in the amp. Maybe it is the best sounding choice but you cannot possibly know this from the power rating...

What I wrote suggested a quality implication I did not intend to make (although Michael Fremer and David Robinson -- two reviewers whose reviews I understand) raved about the sound quality of the Wavac 833 in one review and in two reviews respectively).

I should have elaborated that I have set an arbitrary but, I think, defendable, cut-off of about 150 watts for inclusion in my amplifier search. With this cut-off in mind the 833 is a legitimate SET. The 833 may not have the beloved sound of a SET 300b, but it is a good representative of the SET topology in a power level with which I am comfortable.

The bizarre frequency response and load interaction with the Wavac 833 in Fremer's review were affecting only the range of about 160 Hz and below.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I subscribe to the "if the first watt sucks then why bother" philosophy...who cares about the 150 other crappy watts. That said, one of my best musical experiences was with the WAVAC HE805 (I think 45 watts) and WAVAC preamp. Sounded REALLY good. I haven't heard this big one with the 833 tube...

With 89dB sensitivity speakers playing at 95db or even a bit louder I really do not want to be using the last watt of a 30 or 50 watt SET amplifier, where the distorion level may be problematic. The first watt of an 833 may not sound as good as the first watt of a 300b or 845, but I have not found anyone who has heard an 833 and reported that it sounded bad.

So, for me, and for my philosophy that one should not skimp on power, the 833 is a good contender in the SET category of my amplifier search.

 

[KeithR]

fwiw - Mike Bovaird was jamming at 3-4 watts with 107db speakers with active bass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf0QmpkInyQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o-CPNXOVt8

so when I hear that 20 watts is ok on panels and such, color me skeptical. people like distortion apparently.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . when I hear that 20 watts is ok on panels and such, color me skeptical. people like distortion apparently.

+1

 

[bonzo75]

No need to be skeptical. It doesn't work. Especially ribbons, need a lot. What combination of current, power and grip I don't know, but the big power amps seem to have it

 

[Argonaut]

Dear God

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee

 

[microstrip]

(...) So, for me, and for my philosophy that one should not skimp on power, the 833 is a good contender in the SET category of my amplifier search.

Apparently the 833 seems like the El Dorado - a single triode with high power capability. However there are several issues on its use - it needs very high anode voltage and the tube is not easy to drive, the driver section is critical. Such high power SET transformer is not simple to design and implement. In general, an high quality 833 amplifier will be expensive. See http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/02/amplifon-set-833a-power-amplifiers-new.html - I think around 50 keuros in Europe, directly from the manufacturer.

 

[morricab]

No need to be skeptical. It doesn't work. Especially ribbons, need a lot. What combination of current, power and grip I don't know, but the big power amps seem to have it

I disagree...and i have direct DIY experience driving a shorter BG Radia driver successfully with a 30 watt SET.

 

[Audiocrack]

No need to be skeptical. It doesn't work. Especially ribbons, need a lot. What combination of current, power and grip I don't know, but the big power amps seem to have it

My experience is quite different with the active Genesis 1.1 loudspeakers. The nearly 30 pp watts of my Gakuoh amps are more than sufficient.

 

[853guy]

My experience is quite different with the active Genesis 1.1 loudspeakers. The nearly 30 pp watts of my Gakuoh amps are more than sufficient.

15 - 25 watts is plenty for the ESL 57.

Best,

853guy

 

[Ron Resnick]

Apparently the 833 seems like the El Dorado - a single triode with high power capability. However there are several issues on its use - it needs very high anode voltage and the tube is not easy to drive, the driver section is critical. Such high power SET transformer is not simple to design and implement. In general, an high quality 833 amplifier will be expensive. See http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/02/amplifon-set-833a-power-amplifiers-new.html - I think around 50 keuros in Europe, directly from the manufacturer.

In the two 833 tube designs I am aware of, the 833 is driven by a KT-88 and a KT-150.

I am aware of these Amplifon amplifiers on the internet, but I am not aware of anyone who has heard them or even seen them in real life (at a dealer, at a show, in someone's system, etc.), so, at present, they do not pass my "real product from a real company" test.

 

[microstrip]

In the two 833 tube designs I am aware of,the 833 is driven by a KT-88 and a KT-150.

I am aware of these Amplifon amplifiers on the internet, but I am not aware of anyone who has heard them or even seen them in real life (at a dealer, at a show, in someone's system, etc.), so, at present, they do not pass my "real product from a real company" test.

It was in part my point and what has referred in the Monoandstereo article : a powerful "real product from a real company" using an 833 will be really expensive.

BTW, if someone is looking for an high quality powerful tube amplifier, IMHO the best bargain in the used market is the conrad johnson LP275s - 275w of top quality watts, significantly better sounding than the premier 8.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, microstrip.

The cj LP275 is eight 6550s in a conventional push-pull circuit?

I would want to compare the sound of the cj LP275 to the sound of the VTL MB-185 Series III (with eight EL34s).

Of course the circuit design matters but, all else being equal, for the midrange, I prefer the EL34 to the 6550.

 

[Marko.K]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGmcMEgVcTM