What is the most MUSICAL DAC? DAC for Music Lovers vs. Geeks and Analytic Listeners

[caesar]

The impression you get with Computer Audio is that the innovators and early adopters in this arena are geeks and engineers who unfortunately spend more time with their computer than listening to real, live music. As a result, most of their recommended components seem to just extract detail but miss the musical whole.


Must Haves:
1. Kick A$$ on PCM
2. Musical naturalness, extract gorgeous tone colors from recording, detail resolution that doesn't take away from musical enjoyment - Individual musical parts must not stand out and get in the way of conveying the musical whole, great macrodynamics, great microdynamics, awesome bass, extract timing of the music from the recording, extended highs, musical transparency (vs. analytical transparency to sources)
3. Be able to turn those old ripped CD's from the 1980s I listened to in college from pathetic to musically engaging
4. Not necessarily sound "analog" in the audiophile way, but sound "analog" like real music


Nice to have: Kick A$$ on DSD (as there is very limited DSD content)

Thread nice to have: As you list your contenders, please let us know what you compared it with, in what system, and with what music

 

[DonH50]

The impression you get with Computer Audio is that the innovators and early adopters in this arena are geeks and engineers who unfortunately spend more time with their computer than listening to real, live music. As a result, most of their recommended components seem to just extract detail but miss the musical whole.

I strongly disagree with this premise. Engineers/geeks may be early adopters because they are more comfortable setting up a computer than your average audiophile but that does not mean they "miss the musical whole". I would compose a more detailed, analytic response but I have rehearsal tonight (www.pikespeakphil.org).

 

[dallasjustice]

Since there are so many erroneous assumptions made in your opener, IMO, I can only ask you to give a specific example of an "analytical" DAC and an example of of a "musical" DAC, IYO.

 

[dallasjustice]

Will you guys be performing over Memorial Day Weekend? My family and I are staying at the Broadmoor for that weekend.

I strongly disagree with this premise. Engineers/geeks may be early adopters because they are more comfortable setting up a computer than your average audiophile but that does not mean they "miss the musical whole". I would compose a more detailed, analytic response but I have rehearsal tonight (www.pikespeakphil.org).

 

[dallasjustice]

I guess a restatement of my other post would be: If you want help from digital lovers, please refrain from insulting generalizations about those people.

 

[DonH50]

Broadmoor? Yah, this is the WBF!

No, sorry, this is our last concert this season. The CSP is not performing that weekend either, unfortunately. However, plenty of other things to do!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i'll take a stab at the question.

my reference for digital is my analog; vinyl and tape. my analog is natural and full bodied but not golden hued, or rounded at all, so therefore my expectations for my digital is that it compliment the sonic balance so when I switch it's degrees of goodness, not changes in perspective.

and I think that the Playback Designs MPS-5 that I have; whether as a dac for my server (95% of the time how I get my digital), or the CD/SACD player, fulfills that role.

even though the design is now 9 years old, since it's dac is programmable it is still competitive with what is out there. it's currently on software release number 25. I think my redbook and PCM hirez files sound great on it; although my 4-5 terabytes of dsd and 2xdsd is mostly what I listen to.

is it the most musical dac?

maybe ask Bruce; who also has one (and one of almost everything else too) and last time I saw him post about it, it was in his top 2 choices along with the Lampi for dsd. he maybe had one or two he liked better for PCM...I cannot remember.

in any case, the Playback Design's performance all around is still up there and it's proven to be a great product long term. name another 9 year old dac/player product still in the mix at the top of the food chain.

 

[caesar]

Since there are so many erroneous assumptions made in your opener, IMO, I can only ask you to give a specific example of an "analytical" DAC and an example of of a "musical" DAC, IYO.

I know many guys are taking this personal, but it's not meant to be. We all have our tastes.

I would call Devialet and the lesser Berkeley models as analytical. The higher end Esoteric, however, is very detailed and can be analytical in the wrong system but is musical in most systems.

 

[caesar]

i'll take a stab at the question.

my reference for digital is my analog; vinyl and tape. my analog is natural and full bodied but not golden hued, or rounded at all, so therefore my expectations for my digital is that it compliment the sonic balance so when I switch it's degrees of goodness, not changes in perspective.

and I think that the Playback Designs MPS-5 that I have; whether as a dac for my server (95% of the time how I get my digital), or the CD/SACD player, fulfills that role.

even though the design is now 9 years old, since it's dac is programmable it is still competitive with what is out there. it's currently on software release number 25. I think my redbook and PCM hirez files sound great on it; although my 4-5 terabytes of dsd and 2xdsd is mostly what I listen to.

is it the most musical dac?

maybe ask Bruce; who also has one (and one of almost everything else too) and last time I saw him post about it, it was in his top 2 choices along with the Lampi for dsd. he maybe had one or two he liked better for PCM...I cannot remember.

in any case, the Playback Design's performance all around is still up there and it's proven to be a great product long term. name another 9 year old dac/player product still in the mix at the top of the food chain.

Thanks, Mike. I think PD KILLS on DSD, it's the best I have ever heard for that technology. But unless there has been an upgrade, the PD sounded too smooth and overly harmonic on PCM, while lacking adequate jump factor.

I want something that makes PCM sound as good as PD does to DSD.

 

[dallasjustice]

Why do you assume digital enthusiasts don't listen to live music? That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've read on this forum, which is saying a lot.

Why don't you just buy something and tell us all how you think it sounds?

I know many guys are taking this personal, but it's not meant to be. We all have our tastes.

I would call Devialet and the lesser Berkeley models as analytical. The higher end Esoteric, however, is very detailed and can be analytical in the wrong system but is musical in most systems.

 

[caesar]

Why do you assume digital enthusiasts don't listen to live music? That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've read on this forum, which is saying a lot.

Why don't you just buy something and tell us all how you think it sounds?

I am hoping that based on the thread title the responders will self select. It's always good to assess as many alternatives as possible before making a decision, to save on search costs before auditioning.

Also, I did not say computer audio enthusiasts don't listen to live music. I just said they have spent more time in front of their computer than listening to live music, and many don't have live music as a reference.

 

[dallasjustice]

And you have this prejudice why?

I am hoping that based on the thread title the responders will self select. It's always good to assess as many alternatives as possible before making a decision, to save on search costs before auditioning.

Also, I did not say computer audio enthusiasts don't listen to live music. I just said they have spent more time in front of their computer than listening to live music, and many don't have live music as a reference.

 

[dallasjustice]

Caesar,
I can listen to a shitload more high quality tunes off a server than anyone with a turntable or tape machine. Thats one of the many advantages digital offers.

I have no idea what digital vs analog has to do with how much someone hears live music.

Attacking someone's live music experiences is a common thing. It's like saying your system sucks, so it's no wonder you can't hear the difference between "analytical" and "musical." To me, it's just a bunch of garbage audio forum terminology being used, which only serves to divide. Saying that you are just expressing an opinion whilst expressing broad brush prejudices, is disingenuous.

I've owned about ten different DACs both pro and consumer. There are differences but the differences are ALWAYS very subtle and nuanced. IMO, discussions comparing DACs usually end up exaggerating the differences between them instead of showing how similar each one is to the other compared with other components.

Btw, the Devialet is not a DAC on its own. So, it's impossible to compare it's DAC to another without also considering the amp stage. I've never owned a Berzerkley, but I'm sure it's great. The frustrating thing about forum DAC mash ups is that it's very easy for a motivated listener to get ahold of a demo in their home.

 

[caesar]

And you have this prejudice why?

I have listened to so many well reviewed products, and unfortunately, most of them suck. Guys who raver about them seem to get distracted by the extraneous details and noise, and lose the music. A reviewer may hear an extra shimmer of a cymbal and focus on that inconsequential detail. But, to me, that's not what listening to music is all about. When I am listening to music, I want the emotion communicated, and those minutest details analytic listeners get excited about distract from the experience.

 

[FrantzM]

Caesar,
I can listen to a shitload more high quality tunes off a server than anyone with a turntable or tape machine. Thats one of the many advantages digital offers.

I have no idea what digital vs analog has to do with how much someone hears live music.

Attacking someone's live music experiences is a common thing. It's like saying your system sucks, so it's no wonder you can't hear the difference between "analytical" and "musical." To me, it's just a bunch of garbage audio forum terminology being used, which only serves to divide. Saying that you are just expressing an opinion whilst expressing broad brush prejudices, is disingenuous.

I've owned about ten different DACs both pro and consumer. There are differences but the differences are ALWAYS very subtle and nuanced. IMO, discussions comparing DACs usually end up exaggerating the differences between them instead of showing how similar each one is to the other compared with other components.

Btw, the Devialet is not a DAC on its own. So, it's impossible to compare it's DAC to another without also considering the amp stage. I've never owned a Berzerkley, but I'm sure it's great. The frustrating thing about forum DAC mash ups is that it's very easy for a motivated listener to get ahold of a demo in their home.

Thank you Dallas

Caesar has been going on that tangent for a while ... It was time for someone to interpose and state the truth ...

On this .. I could surmise that non-audiophiles may care more about the music than us audiophiles ... The music is the thing for many music lovers. Sound be damned!

What does "analytical" or "musical" means? Arbitrary epithets you , Caesar more so than most here have been trying to push as absolute.

Give it a rest man...

 

[Robert_Anderson]

I have owned quite a few amazing DAC's over the last 10 years, but the one I like the best overall, and I could kill myself for selling, is a Reimyo DAP 999. It was simply sublime with XRCD's, and sounded good on all types of music, different disks, and with different sources. It is reasonably expensive, but not nearly as expensive as the Esoteric I am using now. It can be hard to find to audition, but it is well worth it.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

On this .. I could surmise that non-audiophiles may care more about the music than us audiophiles ... The music is the thing for many music lovers. Sound be damned!

I think I fall somewhere in between these two descriptions as I sometimes wonder if I'm an audiophile. Music is the primary motivator for me with sound being secondary, but I wouldn't say sonics be damned. Some recordings, regardless of format, are just plain awful and they go into the "Don't even think about playing this crap" pile.

The search for trying to find or decide or opine on what the best DAC or whatever is makes for a nice personal knowledgebase of information, but I question if there really is such a product out there.

 

[FrantzM]

Musical is something not very good often written by Andrew Lloyd Webber.
Keith.

 

[MadFloyd]

Thanks, Mike. I think PD KILLS on DSD, it's the best I have ever heard for that technology. But unless there has been an upgrade, the PD sounded too smooth and overly harmonic on PCM, while lacking adequate jump factor.

I want something that makes PCM sound as good as PD does to DSD.

Have you heard the MSB Analog DAC, caesar?

 

[Orb]

Musical is something not very good often written by Andrew Lloyd Webber.
Keith.

Ooh imagining Elaine Paige (she is a great talent) bitch slapping you!!!!
Cheers
Orb