Visit to Clarisys Auditoriums + CH Precision System in Spokane, Washington

[tima]

Can't judge the sound from a video. You need to hear the system in person.

Why don't you say "I can't judge the sound from a video", and let others be their own judge.

 

[Bobvin]

This strikes me as psycho-acoustic effects of perspective and partially a function of one's reference.

If I listen to a performance in the concert hall, I am in the room with the musicians, I am in their context. If that experience of live acoustic music is my reference, that is what I aim for in reproduction. If I choose musicians in the room with me, that is different as they are in my context, sans the ambiance of where they would perform if they were not here. Or some sort of mash-up. Musicians in the room with me is an audiophile construct, something extraordinarily rare in life or made up.

Seems like musicians “in the room with me” would be something you might experience from a close miked recording session in studio, without an ambient microphone feed. An “I am there“ experience, in your room, is going to be result of having some other kind of microphone setup (i.e. not close miked.) Of course, the ambience of your own room always mixes in unless you’re sitting very near field. Maybe I’m wrong I am generally ignorant of recording techniques.

 

[PeterA]

Why don't you say "I can't judge the sound from a video", and let others be their own judge.

exactly. Live and let live or judge and be judged.

 

[tima]

Seems like musicians “in the room with me” would be something you might experience from a close miked recording session in studio, without an ambient microphone feed. An “I am there“ experience, in your room, is going to be result of having some other kind of microphone setup (i.e. not close miked.) Of course, the ambience of your own room always mixes in unless you’re sitting very near field. Maybe I’m wrong I am generally ignorant of recording techniques.

I don't think these perspectives (musicians in the hall or in your room) are a recording product as much as they are a result of room and speaker setup, which is not to say the recording plays no role. And another factor is what is happening in your head. Basically I'm saying there are few to none real life models to use as a reference for what you would hear with musicians in your room. I recognize some may reject the notion of having a reference, and are happy making it up as they go along.

 

[PeterA]

I don't think these perspectives (musicians in the hall or in your room) are a recording product as much as they are a result of room and speaker setup, which is not to say the recording plays no role. And another factor is what is happening in your head. Basically I'm saying there are few to none real life models to use as a reference for what you would hear with musicians in your room. I recognize some may reject the notion of having a reference, and are happy making it up as they go along.

I agree with this Tim, except for when I hear clear ambient information on a recording of say a Stone Cathedral environment for a bunch of Gregorian chants. I don’t think there’s anything I can do to that presentation to make it seem as though the performance is occurring in my listening room. I am sitting in a comfortable seat in that stone cathedral a distance away from the singers indicated by the listening perspective captured on the recording.

One of the things that my system allows me to do is identify the listening perspective embedded in the recording and then adjust the volume so that the loudness and scale seems appropriate for the listening perspective distance from the musicians. Adjusting this volume without losing a sense of dynamics or energy adds to the realism of the presentation. This adjustment is dependent upon what I hear from the recording.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I agree with this Tim, except for when I hear clear ambient information on a recording of say a Stone Cathedral environment for a bunch of Gregorian chants. I don’t think there’s anything I can do to that presentation to make it seem as though the performance is occurring in my listening room. I am sitting in a comfortable seat in that stone cathedral a distance away from the singers indicated by the listening perspective captured on the recording.

The "they are here" that MikeL is referring to means to me performances like girl with guitar or solo harpsichord in a small club-type venue, not a giant cathedral.

 

[tima]

The "they are here" that MikeL is referring to means to me performances like girl with guitar or solo harpsichord in a small club-type venue, not a giant cathedral.

You can see Patricia Barber in front of you but you cannot see a stone cathedral in your room.

So what is the dividing line, your imagination?

 

[tima]

I agree with this Tim, except for when I hear clear ambient information on a recording of say a Stone Cathedral environment for a bunch of Gregorian chants. I don’t think there’s anything I can do to that presentation to make it seem as though the performance is occurring in my listening room.

Yes, a good example where the ambiance on the recording and knowing where it took place may be primary inhibitors of choral in your room. Is it the case that one must be able to imagine the musicians and their context actually fitting in your room?

 

[tima]

One of the things that my system allows me to do is identify the listening perspective embedded in the recording and then adjust the volume so that the loudness and scale seems appropriate for the listening perspective distance from the musicians.

I don't know enough about mixing to know if there is a created listening perspective embedded in the recording. With multi-mic'ing maybe that has to be the case. But it doesn't follow from that where the listening seat is, in the hall or in your room.

 

[PeterA]

The "they are here" that MikeL is referring to means to me performances like girl with guitar or solo harpsichord in a small club-type venue, not a giant cathedral.

How can girl with guitar playing in a small club make you think that she is playing for you in your listening room that does not sound anything like a small club?

 

[PeterA]

Yes, a good example where the ambiance on the recording and knowing where it took place may be primary inhibitors of choral in your room. Is it the case that one must be able to imagine the musicians and their context actually fitting in your room?

no, I do not think so. For me it is all about the ambient cues on the recording. My room is fairly small and I don’t really associate my room with having ambient cues like I hear on most or all recordings. I suppose the closest would be a studio recording with no or almost no ambient cues, but even then I am just as likely to imagine the musicians in the studio as I am them being in front of me in my living room.

sometimes a studio recording of a piano being played at live volumes gives me the impression that it could be in my room. Or a really close miked piano recording.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

How can girl with guitar playing in a small club make you think that she is playing for you in your listening room that does not sound anything like a small club?

if your bass reproduction and noise floor and acoustics are up to defining the space.......and the recording, media, source and signal path can sufficiently relate it, then the event in that moment, can be right there with you, or you there with it, depending. might even come down to your state of mind or mood. are all the tells tweaking your suspension of disbelief? realism level is a big part of it. how many recordings can do this? lots of variations and degrees of this of course.

but experientially these things happen. magic. have to be open to it. and maybe two listeners sider by side hearing the same things might have different levels of immersion. for any number of reasons. or since they are side by side it's even better. the music should be able to move us......when all the stars align.

 

[Bobvin]

I don't think these perspectives (musicians in the hall or in your room) are a recording product as much as they are a result of room and speaker setup, which is not to say the recording plays no role. And another factor is what is happening in your head. Basically I'm saying there are few to none real life models to use as a reference for what you would hear with musicians in your room. I recognize some may reject the notion of having a reference, and are happy making it up as they go along.

Just last night at our local audio club meeting we had a fellow come in to demonstrate mixing music. I’ve not been exposed to this before so it was new to me, though conceptually I understood I’d never watched somebody actually do it. When he brought in one track of the drums, I thought the cymbals were a bit hot he made an adjustment. But he had another track recorded from microphone placed above the drums which added a lot of ambience. This made the recording take on a completely different sound and brought in a lot of the hall acoustics.

A well setup system should give a completely different feel depending on what the recording/mixing engineer lays down in the final mix. If a speaker setup plays the same thing always regardless of recording that setup sucks. (I mean it needs work.)

 

[PeterA]

if your bass reproduction and noise floor and acoustics are up to defining the space.......and the recording, media, source and signal path can sufficiently relate it, then the event in that moment, can be right there with you, or you there with it, depending. might even come down to your state of mind or mood. are all the tells tweaking your suspension of disbelief? realism level is a big part of it. how many recordings can do this? lots of variations and degrees of this of course.

but experientially these things happen. magic. have to be open to it. and maybe two listeners sider by side hearing the same things might have different levels of immersion. for any number of reasons. or since they are side by side it's even better. the music should be able to move us......when all the stars align.

yeah, I get that Mike. The problem with suspending disbelief is that when the recording can indeed reproduce the ambient information of a girl with guitar in a nightclub, I am transported to the night club dimensions and everything. That night club does not get crammed into my listening room. I go there, it does not come here.

and this happens all the time with my system. I’ve been to night clubs. It’s easy to tell the characteristics of the space by simply having a conversation. It doesn’t sound anything like a conversation in my listening room. that’s why I go to the nightclub with the right recording and the night club does not come to me.

 

[tima]

A well setup system should give a completely different feel depending on what the recording/mixing engineer lays down in the final mix.

Okay. Can we know what the recording/mixing engineer laid down in the final mix outher than by being in the studio when the mix was made?

If a speaker setup plays the same thing always regardless of recording that setup sucks. (I mean it needs work.)

I suspect that is a belief shared by most audiophiles about most components. Avoid speaker setup or using components that tend to homogenize across performances.

The mixing demonstration must have been interesting. So the fellow brought in a trap set, played it,, recorded it, then showed different ways it could be mixed? I would like to see a demo like that.

 

[morricab]

You can see Patricia Barber in front of you but you cannot see a stone cathedral in your room.

So what is the dividing line, your imagination?

If the recording is an intimate one then the "They are here" perspective is appropriate. If it is a recording in a large space, like a cathedral, then your room should become somewhat like a cathedral (i.e. You are there). Ideally, it should be the perspective of the recording itself; however, there will always be some overlay of your own acoustic space on the reproduced one off the recording.

A good one for space in a cathedral is Jan Garbarek with the Hilliard Ensemble "Officium" . It was recorded in an Austrian Monastery.

Officium (album) - Wikipedia

Your room should largely disappear and sound like a cathedral with this recording.

I once heard Schubert's string quintet (double cellos) in a home in London...very much "They are here" perspective. The recording of Mozart string quartets by the Alban Berg Quartett on Telefunken are pretty "They are here" recorded, meaning not much ambiance on the recordings and the sound is quite direct.

5LP Box MOZART 10 SQs String Quartets ALBAN BERG QUARTET Telefunken 635485 NM | eBay

 

[Argonaut]

Busy last night …

 

[Mike Lavigne]

yeah, I get that Mike. The problem with suspending disbelief is that when the recording can indeed reproduce the ambient information of a girl with guitar in a nightclub, I am transported to the night club dimensions and everything. That night club does not get crammed into my listening room. I go there, it does not come here.

and this happens all the time with my system. I’ve been to night clubs. It’s easy to tell the characteristics of the space by simply having a conversation. It doesn’t sound anything like a conversation in my listening room. that’s why I go to the nightclub with the right recording and the night club does not come to me.

a neutral listening room and system can be agile enough to follow the lead of the recording and mix where ever it might go. not saying how it is for you, only how it can be for me.

i do sit in the near field in a system optimized for precision sound staging so maybe i'm hearing more variance in recordings than is typical. more far field listening positions will reduce in degrees sound staging variables. and hearing performers seem to be with me in my space does happen, and all the way to where ever they are too, and all points in between. recordings and mixes are all over the place from where i sit.

and as far as media, i do 70% digital, which is mostly streaming, so i'm exposed to a wide variety of recordings ever expanding. 30+ total listening hours a week......maybe 40+ since i've been retired.

 

[DasguteOhr]

a neutral listening room and system can be agile enough to follow the lead of the recording and mix where ever it might go. not saying how it is for you, only how it can be for me.

i do sit in the near field in a system optimized for precision sound staging so maybe i'm hearing more variance in recordings than is typical. more far field listening positions will reduce in degrees sound staging variables. and hearing performers seem to be with me in my space does happen, and all the way to where ever they are too, and all points in between. recordings and mixes are all over the place from where i sit.

and as far as media, i do 70% digital, which is mostly streaming, so i'm exposed to a wide variety of recordings ever expanding. 30+ total listening hours a week......maybe 40+ since i've been retired.

neutral listening room where does it start and where does it end . what kind of reverberation time like a cathedral or a normal living room or like a studio. I tried a lot back then and in the end I decided on a reverberation time of ~ 0.45 from 150hz to 20khz. Below 150 Hz this value is not possible unless half of the room is an absorber. With the reverberation value, the tones sound very similar to .e.g live piano, trumpet and cello. At lower values 0.2-0.3 you get more detail, but the tones sound very dry without reverberation that seems unnatural.
Clearly, if you listen to nearfield configuration, you can bypass many room influences. I would be interested to know how you and other tuned their listening room (reverb time).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

neutral listening room where does it start and where does it end . what kind of reverberation time like a cathedral or a normal living room or like a studio. I tried a lot back then and in the end I decided on a reverberation time of ~ 0.45 from 150hz to 20khz. Below 150 Hz this value is not possible unless half of the room is an absorber. With the reverberation value, the tones sound very similar to .e.g live piano, trumpet and cello. At lower values 0.2-0.3 you get more detail, but the tones sound very dry without reverberation that seems unnatural.

last time any measurements were done for my room (except the phone app FR pic a couple years ago) was now 10 years ago from my speaker designer. not anything i worry about.

i use the term neutral based on my approach, and feedback from visitors. they find my room has good tone, never any 'dry' comments, yet also full range and lively. extended in the highs, and full extended bottom octaves. no overhang in the bass. neutral. lots of headroom in amplification so never stressed.

Clearly, if you listen to nearfield configuration, you can bypass many room influences. I would be interested to know how you and other tuned your listening room (reverb time).

hard to answer.........but if you have the time...........remember you asked.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/almost-free-and-4-inches-the-final-1.17389/

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/almost-free-and-4-inches-the-final-1.17389/page-3#post-314941

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/suck-out-fixed-i-think.18116/

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/suck-out-fixed-i-think.18116/page-2#post-329496