Not nearly as embarrassing having people know you spent $628 each for power wires.
http://www.audiolab.com/Cardas_Golden_Reference_Power_Cord_Each_1_5m_4_p/cargrpc.htm
--Ethan
Spending money on quality PC's should never be considered "embarrassing."
Vibration isolation question
- Thread starter Bill Stevenson
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Spending money on quality PC's should never be considered "embarrassing."
Not nearly as embarrassing having people know you spent $628 each for power wires.
http://www.audiolab.com/Cardas_Golden_Reference_Power_Cord_Each_1_5m_4_p/cargrpc.htm
Okay, now I'm done.
--Ethan
Hello, Ethan. I hope you are done. Comments like that are frowned upon here at the WBF and might result in administrative action if continued. Other forums might tolerate these kind of comments but the WBF does not. Please note our TOS [http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Terms-Of-Service] where it specifically states;
9. Where possible, please avoid generalizations which create heated arguments. Please don’t say “all amps sound the same” but rather, “all the amps I have heard sound the same to me.” Following this rule not only makes for a calmer atmosphere, but also saves you hours and days of aggravation while you try to defend your point of view!
Our goal is to have a friendly place where everyone shares ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create. Comments like this goes against the goals of this forum and you have been warned about this before. While the management team rules with a gentle hand in managing this forum, we reserve the right to terminate membership of anyone that we believe in our sole opinion to be disruptive to the well being of the community.
Tom
"The dude" started it with this rude and unnecessary comment:
Before that was this unwarranted attack on the quality of my hi-fi system, which of course is meant as an attack on me:
At least one other person here agrees those comments were insulting:
My post above is not one bit more insulting than the one I replied to. So why single me out? I'm never rude to people unless they're rude to me first. So if you want to moderate forum members, please look back to see who was insulting first.
--Ethan
Tom,
While I agree with your intention to "moderate" this discussion, Ethan's point is well taken. If you choose to rebuke one party, it seems only right and fair that you would treat all participants in the same manner. We do not all have to agree with each other, but it should be possible to disagree agreeably. Frankly, the exchange of views expressed in this thread has been an eye-opener for me and I would hate to see discussion quashed for the wrong reasons.
Bill
While I agree with your intention to "moderate" this discussion, Ethan's point is well taken. If you choose to rebuke one party, it seems only right and fair that you would treat all participants in the same manner. We do not all have to agree with each other, but it should be possible to disagree agreeably. Frankly, the exchange of views expressed in this thread has been an eye-opener for me and I would hate to see discussion quashed for the wrong reasons.
Bill
Ethan,
I have found that isolating solid state amps and the SS power supply for my turntable were also clearly audible. I don't know if it can be measured, but the sound improved in similar ways to how it improved when I isolated my turntable.
I agree with Rockitman, that the more transparent a system is, the more one will hear the benefits of vibration isolation. I can't speak to your system because I don't know what you have.
I have found that isolating solid state amps and the SS power supply for my turntable were also clearly audible. I don't know if it can be measured, but the sound improved in similar ways to how it improved when I isolated my turntable.
I agree with Rockitman, that the more transparent a system is, the more one will hear the benefits of vibration isolation. I can't speak to your system because I don't know what you have.
Good evening to you, Ethan. I see you responded and I'd like to make a couple of comments. First off, it doesn't matter who started slinging insults. The fact of the matter is they must stop so that the WBF can be a friendly place where everyone shares ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create. As moderators, there is no possible way to go back to the root of every insult, issue, conflict or problem with the dynamics involved in a forum such as this. You have been warned before about this very thing and consider this a public warning once again. Just stop it. It goes against everything the founding fathers of this forum intended to create and neither the management team nor I will debate this. Period.
As for Rockitman's comment about your system, I believe that you may have read into it incorrectly. It wasn't meant to be an insult, nor was it meant to be an attack on you. He was simply stating his observations. I personally just so happen to agree with him. Some systems simply aren't as resolving as others. If you consider yourself an audio expert, then I am sure that you can appreciate that aspect of audio reproduction. With the VAST array of systems owned by the members here, I'm quite sure that even you can agree that some systems are more resolving than others.
Now that we have swayed off of the warning topic, let's get back to it. The rule you violated was a generalization of PC's that had or still has the potential to insult many members of this forum, create a heated argument and disturb an otherwise calm atmosphere. This is why I singled out your post. The forum management team does rule with a gentle hand but concerning this matter, I hope the forum rules and I have made ourselves crystal clear.
Now let's kindly get back to the discussion at hand.
Tom
As for Rockitman's comment about your system, I believe that you may have read into it incorrectly. It wasn't meant to be an insult, nor was it meant to be an attack on you. He was simply stating his observations. I personally just so happen to agree with him. Some systems simply aren't as resolving as others. If you consider yourself an audio expert, then I am sure that you can appreciate that aspect of audio reproduction. With the VAST array of systems owned by the members here, I'm quite sure that even you can agree that some systems are more resolving than others.
Now that we have swayed off of the warning topic, let's get back to it. The rule you violated was a generalization of PC's that had or still has the potential to insult many members of this forum, create a heated argument and disturb an otherwise calm atmosphere. This is why I singled out your post. The forum management team does rule with a gentle hand but concerning this matter, I hope the forum rules and I have made ourselves crystal clear.
Now let's kindly get back to the discussion at hand.
Tom
Ho Hum.
I usually find myself more open-minded than most other folks about what can affect SQ and what can't affect it. Most audio manufacturers will tell us about the importance of microphony, and the things they do to avoid it. Things like turntables and tubes are obviously microphonic (many years ago I used to put my turntable in a separate room), but I do keep reading about how some solid state components like clocks are microphonic as well - vibration increases jitter and phase noise apparently.
Well, last year I was messing around with an integrated amplifier, and I tried a few acoustic damping measures The box sounded pretty dead when I was finished. Even with a sighted test though, I could hardly hear any difference at all - nothing that I couldn't put down to listening uncertainty (even though the law of listener bias decreed that I should have heard an improvement).
Out of desperation, I tried sitting the amp on a bunch of valve springs that I happened to have lying around the garage. The amp bounced up and down at around 3-4 Hz, meaning that the acoustic decoupling was pretty good, and filtered out vibration above this frequency. Once again, I could hardly hear any difference. I then went on to find some much more effective tweaks, but that's another story.
Nick
I usually find myself more open-minded than most other folks about what can affect SQ and what can't affect it. Most audio manufacturers will tell us about the importance of microphony, and the things they do to avoid it. Things like turntables and tubes are obviously microphonic (many years ago I used to put my turntable in a separate room), but I do keep reading about how some solid state components like clocks are microphonic as well - vibration increases jitter and phase noise apparently.
Well, last year I was messing around with an integrated amplifier, and I tried a few acoustic damping measures The box sounded pretty dead when I was finished. Even with a sighted test though, I could hardly hear any difference at all - nothing that I couldn't put down to listening uncertainty (even though the law of listener bias decreed that I should have heard an improvement).
Out of desperation, I tried sitting the amp on a bunch of valve springs that I happened to have lying around the garage. The amp bounced up and down at around 3-4 Hz, meaning that the acoustic decoupling was pretty good, and filtered out vibration above this frequency. Once again, I could hardly hear any difference. I then went on to find some much more effective tweaks, but that's another story.
Nick
Last edited:
Thank you Nick. Your findings are quite significant I think. Years ago I was in the business and had more than one client build a room devoted to music reproduction and in more than one case they too put their electronics in a different room. In one case the speakers were built into brick enclosure infinite baffles per Rudy Bozak recommendations. I could never tell if all this effort was worth it or not. The built in Bozaks did sound better than regular Concert Grands, but I always thought it was the room, not the isolation provided by the speaker enclosures. But who knows?
Not an insult? Of course it was! How could either of you know how "resolving" my system is? The truth is you have no idea. You've never been to my home, and you've never heard my system. Further, "resolving" by itself is a meaningless term. Audio clarity is defined by a flat frequency response, a lack of distortion, and a lack of echoes and ringing and other noises. In all of those regards my system is arguably about as good as it gets. You and others here are welcome to visit any time in person, so at least you'll have some basis for your opinions.
--Ethan
Hey Ethan, tell us about your system details, then all the speculation could end...failure to do so is very telling.
Failure to do so? I've described my system many times here and elsewhere. Since you already commented on my system, doesn't that mean you already know what I have?
My main audio source for CDs and video is a Sony Blu-ray player.
I also have a Dell laptop I use as a music server, which has a Presonus FIREBox sound card.
Do you care what brand of VHS tape deck I still have to play old tapes?
All audio goes through a Pioneer receiver. It's not the most expensive model, but it's very flat with -3 dB points at 5 Hz and 100 KHz. Its distortion at the RCA outputs is not spec'd, but I'm sure it's lower than the distortion of any loudspeakers. Since I use powered loudspeakers, the output capability and distortion of the built-in power amps is irrelevant.
My loudspeakers are Mackie HR624, which have extremely low distortion. I also have an SVS PB12-Ultra/2 subwoofer, which has two 12-inch drivers in a ported box the size of a short refrigerator. You can see it in the lower left of the photo below. This subwoofer also has extremely low distortion because the box is huge and the drivers don't have to work very hard to give an extremely loud output level. This is where "resolving" really comes into play.
More important than the electronics is the extensive room treatment. Bass ringing is practically non-existent, and the skewed response most rooms suffer due to comb filtering is also minimal.
I'm still hoping you'll let me visit you some day to discuss this stuff in person and maybe do some experiments. I bet we'd have a lot of fun.
--Ethan
I use Symposium Rollerball for my amplifier CD Transport and DAC.
I heard the difference immediately. more detail and smoother sound.
I heard the difference immediately. more detail and smoother sound.
Ethan,
The thing that stands out for me in your system photo and your description of it is that you are holding out on us with an important detail. What kind of Scotch is that? And how does it affect the SQ? ;-)
The thing that stands out for me in your system photo and your description of it is that you are holding out on us with an important detail. What kind of Scotch is that? And how does it affect the SQ? ;-)
Wow - just wow.
Nice mid-fi system. Not what I would call hifi by any means.
Ethan, apparently you equate 'resolving' with 'audio clarity'. They are not the same. I had often wondered why you were so adamantly not on the same page as most people with high end systems (as seen on this forum), now with this photo it is abundantly obvious why. The prior post about your system's capabilities was not an insult, it must have been based on having seem this or similar photos before. As such it was simply a statement of fact. Having run a service department for decades, I am very familiar with the abilities of this Pioneer amp and others like it. They do indeed have good specs- no worries there, but as you probably know not a lot different from most car stereos in that regard either (not that there is anything wrong with that...). But good specs often do not translate to good audio performance simply because the specs often don't take into account known human hearing perceptual rules. IOW the specs are arbitrary and not actually related to audio.
The shame of it is, even if you are adamantly anti-vacuum tube and anti-analog, you can still hear noticeable differences (and by that I mean improvements) in high end transistor gear. If you think they are built the same because the specs say so you are wrong. Open up a high end solid state amp and you will see larger power transformers, more filter capacitance (both of which contribute to lower IM, especially on transients which is an issue not measured in the specs), larger heatsinks, superior grounding paths (lower noise, lower IM) and so on. Your amp by contrast employs inexpensive electrolytics and various shortcuts throughout the circuit, and if you want to look for something that is microphonic, there it sits (just an example). Electrolytics are often used without proper biasing in Japanese audio circuits, causing audible distortion (this is just an example, there are numerous compromises built into this amp for the sake of cost vs performance).
If you were to list your system strengths (the 'pros'), take whatever they are and multiply by about 10 and you get where a true high end system (tube or transistor) typically operates. List the weaknesses ('cons' of your system) and divide by 10, once again you have where many high end systems are operating. This is not an insult so much as it is information- I am sure you have dealt with many room problems, which is always good, but in selecting the electronics and the speakers you are not doing all the room work the justice it deserves. Of course, budget is always a concern, and if that is the case for you then I would say you have done an excellent job getting the most you can out of mid-fi gear. But it would be incorrect and a bit insulting to assume that because you have done this work and also due to the specs that this system is able to operate in the same arena as a true high end system can. Its apples and oranges. You don't have the resolving power, and from your prior posting history, don't know that you don't know it. Put another way, if you did have the resolution, you would be aware of more details in your recorded library- more aware of vocals, more aware of backing tracks and mic technique. Equipment as we see here is only good on a professional basis for testing to see how a recording works on mass market equipment (because that is what it is) but it is by no means reference quality.
If you are insulted by this its not the intention. Instead its to get you to consider that there there is more to audio than you have assumed.
Nice mid-fi system. Not what I would call hifi by any means.
Ethan, apparently you equate 'resolving' with 'audio clarity'. They are not the same. I had often wondered why you were so adamantly not on the same page as most people with high end systems (as seen on this forum), now with this photo it is abundantly obvious why. The prior post about your system's capabilities was not an insult, it must have been based on having seem this or similar photos before. As such it was simply a statement of fact. Having run a service department for decades, I am very familiar with the abilities of this Pioneer amp and others like it. They do indeed have good specs- no worries there, but as you probably know not a lot different from most car stereos in that regard either (not that there is anything wrong with that...). But good specs often do not translate to good audio performance simply because the specs often don't take into account known human hearing perceptual rules. IOW the specs are arbitrary and not actually related to audio.
The shame of it is, even if you are adamantly anti-vacuum tube and anti-analog, you can still hear noticeable differences (and by that I mean improvements) in high end transistor gear. If you think they are built the same because the specs say so you are wrong. Open up a high end solid state amp and you will see larger power transformers, more filter capacitance (both of which contribute to lower IM, especially on transients which is an issue not measured in the specs), larger heatsinks, superior grounding paths (lower noise, lower IM) and so on. Your amp by contrast employs inexpensive electrolytics and various shortcuts throughout the circuit, and if you want to look for something that is microphonic, there it sits (just an example). Electrolytics are often used without proper biasing in Japanese audio circuits, causing audible distortion (this is just an example, there are numerous compromises built into this amp for the sake of cost vs performance).
If you were to list your system strengths (the 'pros'), take whatever they are and multiply by about 10 and you get where a true high end system (tube or transistor) typically operates. List the weaknesses ('cons' of your system) and divide by 10, once again you have where many high end systems are operating. This is not an insult so much as it is information- I am sure you have dealt with many room problems, which is always good, but in selecting the electronics and the speakers you are not doing all the room work the justice it deserves. Of course, budget is always a concern, and if that is the case for you then I would say you have done an excellent job getting the most you can out of mid-fi gear. But it would be incorrect and a bit insulting to assume that because you have done this work and also due to the specs that this system is able to operate in the same arena as a true high end system can. Its apples and oranges. You don't have the resolving power, and from your prior posting history, don't know that you don't know it. Put another way, if you did have the resolution, you would be aware of more details in your recorded library- more aware of vocals, more aware of backing tracks and mic technique. Equipment as we see here is only good on a professional basis for testing to see how a recording works on mass market equipment (because that is what it is) but it is by no means reference quality.
If you are insulted by this its not the intention. Instead its to get you to consider that there there is more to audio than you have assumed.
Thanks Ralph. I think you put it well, and hope that Ethan can accept the truth therein and not be offended.
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