Tripoint Audio - new top model grounding device

[spiritofmusic]

Lloyd, this stuff is worse than a hard drugs habit !!! Not that I'd know, of course . I like the idea of a regular fix of less and less noise/more and more musical message.
For anyone contemplating grounding, I say go for it. I reiterate, Miguel should consider more affordable stuff for those who just can't stump up. Entreq fills that void. A simple Tellus and one Apollo cable to preamp, c.$1.5k-$2k will give you a sufficient taster of the possibilities.

 

[Speedskater]

Very basic principles here at work.

The size of the sink does not matter especially when the unit is grounded. The number of cables will improve EMI reduction,but a larger cable will trump quantity. If you increase the size of the cable and that is all that needs to be done,more EMI will be pulled away from the target component. EMI cannot penetrate ferrous metal,so it migrates a long the surface of the metal enclosure. If you create a pathway,the EMI will take the path created back to ground. It is my experience that EMI reduction will reset system resistance and many benefits of this can be heard. By using VU meters this improvement in system resistance can be clearly seen. This is the same principle of all high end cables and that is why cables sound different. It is also why synergies are created with different equipment matchings.

EMI noise currents are searching for the easiest paths back to their (voltage) source. The idea is provide a low impedance easy path (flat braid is such a path) back to their source. EMI noise currents are not looking for a sump or sink in which to disappear. Note that their source is that power company transformer outside.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Roger,

I'm following this discussion with much interest.....and thank you for the explanations. I'm not sure I have the whole picture of cause and effect but I'm starting to see it.

I wonder why you think that Miguel states that the Tripoint does not work well with an isolation transformer such as the balanced Equi=tech that I have. could it be that the Equi=tech and it's own grounding mechanisms already address a degree of the contribution of the Tripoint products and thus reduce it's effect?

or maybe some other issue?

obviously I'm trying to assess the potential of this direction for my system and whether the Equi=tech might reduce or eliminate the potential performance increase. the benefits that I read about from the Tripoint sure sound like what I get from the Equi=tech.

 

[RogerD]

EMI noise currents are searching for the easiest paths back to their (voltage) source. The idea is provide a low impedance easy path (flat braid is such a path) back to their source. EMI noise currents are not looking for a sump or sink in which to disappear. Note that their source is that power company transformer outside.

Roger,

I'm following this discussion with much interest.....and thank you for the explanations. I'm not sure I have the whole picture of cause and effect but I'm starting to see it.

I wonder why you think that Miguel states that the Tripoint does not work well with an isolation transformer such as the balanced Equi=tech that I have. could it be that the Equi=tech and it's own grounding mechanisms already address a degree of the contribution of the Tripoint products and thus reduce it's effect?

or maybe some other issue?

obviously I'm trying to assess the potential of this direction for my system and whether the Equi=tech might reduce or eliminate the potential performance increase. the benefits that I read about from the Tripoint sure sound like what I get from the Equi=tech.

Kevin thank you for that explanation.

Mike,

The way I like to explain it is power conditioning is before the audio signal or component entry. There are all kinds of power conditioning products that fit this description. Also high end cable such as IC's & PC's serve this purpose to shield EMI from electrical current(audio signal). The only trouble is that EMI is created inside the eletronics by current flowing through wires,transformers,PCB traces,ect.. Low noise capacitors can filter some of this EMI. So a observant person like Miguel of Tripoint and a few others understand this and address the real problem which is @ the audio signal and design a device to clean or create a pathway to remove this magnetic interference from the audio signal.

Will your system benefit from a EMI less audio signal? I would say yes,even though you have excellent electronics and power conditioning. I must admit my method is not as pretty as some of these other methods. I think though what I do reduces EMI to a residual amount in the system. There is no doubt that these other designs do what they are designed to do. I just think that by design there are limitations,but that can be overcome,the principle is sound.

So in conclustion, the object of this design or method is to remove EMI from the actual source,which is the current that flows through the circuit and is part of the audio signal. Most every other method is at the beginning or in between the source(s).

I hope this makes sense. As a side note,if all high end equipment was made to be rack mounted,the implementation of this method would be easy and simple.

Roger

 

[LL21]

Kevin thank you for that explanation.

Mike,

The way I like to explain it is power conditioning is before the audio signal or component entry. There are all kinds of power conditioning products that fit this description. Also high end cable such as IC's & PC's serve this purpose to shield EMI from electrical current(audio signal). The only trouble is that EMI is created inside the eletronics by current flowing through wires,transformers,PCB traces,ect.. Low noise capacitors can filter some of this EMI. So a observant person like Miguel of Tripoint and a few others understand this and address the real problem which is @ the audio signal and design a device to clean or create a pathway to remove this magnetic interference from the audio signal.

Will your system benefit from a EMI less audio signal? I would say yes,even though you have excellent electronics and power conditioning. I must admit my method is not as pretty as some of these other methods. I think though what I do reduces EMI to a residual amount in the system. There is no doubt that these other designs do what they are designed to do. I just think that by design there are limitations,but that can be overcome,the principle is sound.

So in conclustion, the object of this design or method is to remove EMI from the actual source,which is the current that flows through the circuit and is part of the audio signal. Most every other method is at the beginning or in between the source(s).

I hope this makes sense. As a side note,if all high end equipment was made to be rack mounted,the implementation of this method would be easy and simple.

Roger

Wow...I think even I could understand that one, it was so clear! Thank you!!! That is a very very cool explanation and one to keep in mind. Thanks for taking the time...this whole grounding thing has taken some of us by storm, but it is very very hard to get an audition, so its nice to see the technical experts weigh in to help explain the how's and why's.

 

[Speedskater]

RogerD, thanks for a much better explanation than my little attempt. Read the first part of Henry Ott's 1983 paper.

"Ground- A Path For Current Flow"
http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/ground.pdf

More Henry Ott papers and books at:
http://www.hottconsultants.com/index.html

 

[RogerD]

Rodger for a much better explanation than my little attempt. Read the first part of Henry Ott's 1983 paper.

"Ground- A Path For Current Flow"
http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/ground.pdf

More Henry Ott papers and books at:
http://www.hottconsultants.com/index.html

Thanks Kevin,

Very informative and detailed,a good study piece for me.

So Kevin,

In simple terms, The power company transformer is the source and the design goal is to create a low impedance path for EMI back to that source.....correct?

 

[rockitman]

Kevin thank you for that explanation.

Mike,

The way I like to explain it is power conditioning is before the audio signal or component entry. There are all kinds of power conditioning products that fit this description. Also high end cable such as IC's & PC's serve this purpose to shield EMI from electrical current(audio signal). The only trouble is that EMI is created inside the eletronics by current flowing through wires,transformers,PCB traces,ect.. Low noise capacitors can filter some of this EMI. So a observant person like Miguel of Tripoint and a few others understand this and address the real problem which is @ the audio signal and design a device to clean or create a pathway to remove this magnetic interference from the audio signal.

Will your system benefit from a EMI less audio signal? I would say yes,even though you have excellent electronics and power conditioning. I must admit my method is not as pretty as some of these other methods. I think though what I do reduces EMI to a residual amount in the system. There is no doubt that these other designs do what they are designed to do. I just think that by design there are limitations,but that can be overcome,the principle is sound.

So in conclustion, the object of this design or method is to remove EMI from the actual source,which is the current that flows through the circuit and is part of the audio signal. Most every other method is at the beginning or in between the source(s).

I hope this makes sense. As a side note,if all high end equipment was made to be rack mounted,the implementation of this method would be easy and simple.

Roger

Are you saying by using the flat copper wire you linked to earlier spade terminated and connected to each component chassis then to a cooper bus bar which is then connected to the wall outlet ground will achieve nearly the same thing as these expensive grounding boxes ?

 

[Speedskater]

Are you saying by using the flat copper wire you linked to earlier spade terminated and connected to each component chassis then to a cooper bus bar which is then connected to the wall outlet ground will achieve nearly the same thing as these expensive grounding boxes ?

While he might not say it, Ralph Morrison wrote about it back in the 1980's and 90's in his books. Probably "Grounding and Shielding in Facilities" is the best book. See Chapter 7. 'Facility Considerations'
Note that his books are not easy reading. He writes in Field Theory rather than Circuit Theory which can be challenging.

Some Keith Armstrong photos.
http://www.interferencetechnology.c...-design-our-products-are-trying-to-help-us-3/

 

[RogerD]

Are you saying by using the flat copper wire you linked to earlier spade terminated and connected to each component chassis then to a cooper bus bar which is then connected to the wall outlet ground will achieve nearly the same thing as these expensive grounding boxes ?

Christian,

The principal of signal grounding can be simple,but as Ott described must be engineered well,when designing signal paths. What we are discussing now is,is the normal understood methods sufficient to remove EMI to a residual amount in audio equipment. What Tripoint and others with their designs are saying is, it is not. There is enough EMI produced and integral in the audio signal to degrade sound quality. If you create a low impedance path back to the source (as Kevin points out,the power company transformer) that will remove EMI to a residual amount and improve the purity of the audio signal.

What I have found is that the grounding schemes of most audio equipment is not equal and certainly a small gauge wire connection back to the power source is not sufficient for meaningful EMI reduction. So I increase the size of that pathway (lower impedance), and improve sound quality. To answer your question......yes.

 

[rockitman]

Christian,

The principal of signal grounding can be simple,but as Ott described must be engineered well,when designing signal paths. What we are discussing now is,is the normal understood methods sufficient to remove EMI to a residual amount in audio equipment. What Tripoint and others with their designs are saying is, it is not. There is enough EMI produced and integral in the audio signal to degrade sound quality. If you create a low impedance path back to the source (as Kevin points out,the power company transformer) that will remove EMI to a residual amount and improve the purity of the audio signal.

What I have found is that the grounding schemes of most audio equipment is not equal and certainly a small gauge wire connection back to the power source is not sufficient for meaningful EMI reduction. So I increase the size of that pathway (lower impedance), and improve sound quality. To answer your question......yes.

Thanks Roger.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mike L, I know I've been gently prompting you to investigate grounding. You've exhausted your journey in component upgrades (MM7 etc), power (Equi-Tech), isolation (active platforms) and dedicated room/acoustic treatments.
I confidently predict grounding will remove the last potential bottleneck in your system, that of noise.
Like you I'm running a balanced transformer. It's not a wall mounted mega installation like yours, but not far off in being a 65kg 8kVA beastie. I get that "after midnight" sound 24/7. Nothing fazes it. Nothing. It's provided a massive foundation for the music to emerge from, tightening up the bass, and allowing mids and high frequencies to soar uncompressed.
At this point I really felt that was it. Boy, was I wrong. I took a punt on Entreq grounding, and have ended up running a Silver Tellus box, with an Apollo grounding cable each to phono/pre/cdp/monoblocks/and in time potentially to my sub amps (I'm getting Zu Audio to make up a couple of modules customised w/ground posts - i MUST be convinced of grounding, this is not inexpensive).
Well, grounding provides something totally different and totally complementary to my balanced transformer. The latter provides the solid foundation for music to sit on/emerge from, and an unshakeable drive. Grounding takes this and furthermore provides a still clarity for microdynamics to emerge, and in many cases make themselves known for the first time!
I liken it to: pre grounding - music in a hot summer heat haze, soundstage wavering/ with grounding - music in a crisp cool spring morning, everything still and refreshing. Poetic licence!
With Entreq there is NO compromise mixing balanced and grounding. If there is w/Tripoint, then it's a no brainer, go ahead w/Entreq and audition, blending it all in your system.
I really think you'll be surprised and will never go back to non-grounded.
Mike, please PM me for any more specific qs.

 

[Audiocrack]

Just that we do not mix up myth with facts I hereby enclose a comment made by Miguel from Tripoint Audio on Audiogon. You can find this comment on Audiogon under community, virtual systems, Tripoint.

As we all (should) know, it is not only about the (good) idea but also about the (good) implementation of this idea.

My fellow audiophiles, please do trust me on this one if I proclaim that the Tripoint devices are spectacular good (and please note: I use two top notch audio systems that I know from inside out and the effects by adding the Troy signature to both of them were profound. I could not believe what I heard!).

Such a pity that people on this forum that have never heard any of the Tripoint devices, are so critical only because of their prices. How can someone judge (the price of) a product if he has never heard it? This is really beyond me.

Anyway, here is the quote:

"There has been a lot of talk lately regarding grounding benefits, schemes, scientific theory, and some myth stories. I'm here to tell you not all grounding solutions yield the same results. I do have to clear some erroneous information that is being said about Tripoint. The first lie is that Tripoint is not compatible with isolation transformer. There is no compatibility issue at all of incorporating a Tripoint Troy Signature or Emperor Ground in conjunction with a transformer base AC conditioner. This includes large isolation transformers at the wall panel. My comments in the past regarding isolation transformers are based on personal preference and trial and error. The isolation transformer at the wall panel has to be tested further, distance from the transformer to the listening room I believe will be a determining factor on success rate. Anyone who wants to discuss this topic further with me is welcome to contact me. I can guarantee you that Tripoint products will work under any system and any configuration. Due to the revealing nature of our products its up to the discriminating listener to determine the best component, cable, room treatment and tweaks that work best. Of course I have my preferences through years of trial and error thanks to the help of Tripoint. I urge anyone who is a real music lover to try grounding. Tripoint is referred by most as a grounding box, when it reality it's much more complex than just a ground box. Tripoint technology deals with mechanical induce distortions, acts like big vacuum to drain EMI/RFI away from your components, deals with 60hz hum/resonance distortion. Tripoint is not a solution to eliminate earth ground rods which are there for your safety and are code. I do also incorporate a very sophisticated grounding scheme at my home with three ground bars in bendonite which are 30 feet down under going to a water table. This is no match for the noise rejection capabilities of Tripoint. Yes in my experience and that of Tripoint owners, Tripoint solution products is the only real way to achieve natural sounding music and not just sounds. I hope I have cleared up some questions regarding Tripoint products. If you have any questions you are welcome to contact me at anytime. Happy Listening everyone."

 

[spiritofmusic]

"...There is NO match for the noise rejection capabilities of Tripoint/...Tripoint solution products is the ONLY REAL WAY to achieve natural sounding music and not just sounds" (my emphasis).
I fully subscribe to the possibility that Miguel's SOTA products may exceed the capabilities of Entreq (I bow to Lloyd LL21's recent a-b comparison), I just REALLY (my emphasis) object to the triumphalist tone of all this. Grounding brings real benefits to the listening experience, and Entreq provides in comparison to Tripoint a brilliant way to get closer to natural sound at a lower cost w/much greater scope for an upgrading/additive approach. Despite me never wanting to go back to non-grounded, I would never say other systems w/out the influence of grounding are inferior, just that grounding can bring major benefits. And hence I really object to a blanket declaration that music w/out Tripoint is wholly inferior, even w/other grounding products in the loop.
You just don't see Equi-Tech, Entreq, Shunyata (companies providing SOTA approaches to power/noise reduction) etc shouting the odds.
And before I get accused of being anti-Miguel etc, as has been the case, how would we all feel if Wilson, Magico, SME, Emm Labs etc all said their products were the summit, all else being mere impersonation?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Spirit,

thank you for your current and past efforts to help me to experience this in my system. at some point in the near future i will connect with you about it.

i do respect that Miguel is 'selling', the rest of us are sharing. there is a difference, not that i do not respect Miguel.....i am sure his products work as many people i respect have had significant performance improvements. i do appreciate the clarification about his views on isolation transformers.

ideally someone (maybe me) will compare a well thought out DIY approach for this 'signal path grounding' scheme (my label) to either the Entreq or Tripoint in a system with a whole system isolation transformer to be able to judge what one gets for the difference in investment.

 

[rockitman]

ideally someone (maybe me) will compare a well thought out DIY approach for this 'signal path grounding' scheme (my label) to either the Entreq or Tripoint in a system with a whole system isolation transformer to be able to judge what one gets for the difference in investment.

That's what I am waiting for. I may devise something myself as simple as a drilled/threaded copper buss bar connected to the wall outlet ground then run those flat low impedance wires, spade terminated from the buss bar to the componentry that Roger eludes to a couple pages back in this thread.

 

[spiritofmusic]

DIY always a preferable solution if it works as well for minimal outlay. I suspect w/Entreq, Tripoint etc, there's a lot going on, and I'm skeptical one could gain ALL the benefit w/something Heath-Robinson.
There's a lot to be gained from a simple entry level a-b: an Entreq Silver Tellus and single Apollo lead (c$3k) from the preamp. This is the connection that gave me max bang for my buck, my other 4-6 leads being additive to that original boost grounding the preamp, logical since it's the "heart" of the system.
Try that single a-b, and then decide. The downer on this is that Entreq are struggling for US distribn, and so a trial is only for the brave of heart (wallet) if you're prepared to cover import duties/carriage on a money back trial from Sweden.

 

[rockitman]

I found these links helpful on grounding fundamentals...my apologies if it has been posted before.

http://www.rane.com/note151.html
http://www.rane.com/note110.html

 

[RogerD]

Spirit,

thank you for your current and past efforts to help me to experience this in my system. at some point in the near future i will connect with you about it.

i do respect that Miguel is 'selling', the rest of us are sharing. there is a difference, not that i do not respect Miguel.....i am sure his products work as many people i respect have had significant performance improvements. i do appreciate the clarification about his views on isolation transformers.

ideally someone (maybe me) will compare a well thought out DIY approach for this 'signal path grounding' scheme (my label) to either the Entreq or Tripoint in a system with a whole system isolation transformer to be able to judge what one gets for the difference in investment.

That's what I am waiting for. I may devise something myself as simple as a drilled/threaded copper buss bar connected to the wall outlet ground then run those flat low impedance wires, spade terminated from the buss bar to the componentry that Roger eludes to a couple pages back in this thread.

I am going to have to rewire my system when my C37 and other MR70's are finished. I envision a copper buss bar drilled for 8-32 machine screws and using a low resistance flat braid cable equal to the resistance of a 2 AWG stranded cable. Each component would have one connection to the buss bar and the preamp would have two connections to that bar, then from preamp two final 2 awg cables to the preamp outlet screw which leads back to the power source. My monoblocs might have 2 connections as would my DAC. I am I kinda superstitious not wanting to change much but if a go to the lowest resistance cable,I should atleast achieve the same level of sound quality. I think the copper buss would be 4 inch by 10 inch x 1 inch thick(map and planning)....that should give enough surface area to make all the connections. I already have the 2 2gauge wires connected and I am not going to change those,what I might do is buy some cable flex covering from parts connexxion and dress the outlet wires up a bit......not to be so vain about my system.

p.s. I have found that that .2485 ohms per 1000 ft is good for components....I will probably go for .1563 through out if the physical size of the flat braid can be terminated and be fastened without too much trouble

 

[spiritofmusic]

Christian, I'm not going to get into the wherewithall of electrical engineering, and I stand to be corrected, but the "grounding" discussed here in audiophile terms is a different matter from "grounding" as an electrical installer would understand it. A ground/earth is required on an install for safety/operational grounds. When the proponents like me talk about audiophile grounding, it's as a more general, drainage, sump category for all kinds of nasties that appear in the system once the install is complete/audio system up an running. Now we're talking about eddys and contaminations that creep into the system from the mains, and nasties created by the components themselves. I envisage these nasties, via a common impedance generated by Entreq, Tripoint etc being channeled out of the system, and not being allowed to recirculate to create relative chaos (in our parlance, music-destroying noise).
So, if I'm not incorrect, I believe it's a sideline to look at the grounding/earthing as the electrical installer would think of it, this is more an audiophile matter where we're trying to eliminate factors that obscure our enjoyment of music.