Transparency vs "Symphonic coloration" in modern DAC gear.

[Blizzard]

Thanks, Blizzard -- I have an engine out service due on my car...hmm -- engine out service...better digital

In your Ferrari? I'd choose better digital. Sell the Grace M905 before resale value drops!

 

[Blizzard]

True enough Blizz. I do wish you well on your quest.

Thanks for support instead of criticism for once

 

[c1ferrari]

In your Ferrari? I'd choose better digital. Sell the Grace M905 before resale value drops!

Yeah
The Grace m905 is a stellar sounding unit...that's why I bought it
But this cornucopia of digital music delivery paraphernalia is mind-numbing for me...the digital-uninitiated.

 

[Blizzard]

Yeah
The Grace m905 is a stellar sounding unit...that's why I bought it
But this cornucopia of digital music delivery paraphernalia is mind-numbing for me...the digital-uninitiated.

Can you get a free trial and compare? I don't think you'll find better than Merging for your application

 

[c1ferrari]

Can you get a free trial and compare? I don't think you'll find better than Merging for your application

Hi Blizzard,

Yes, I believe I can demo the NADAC, but the Hapi has the stronger appeal, particularly since I'm an amateur recordist.

 

[wisnon]

Thanks for support instead of criticism for once

For once?

Just because I ask probing questions and share my insight does not mean I am against you or wish failure upon you.

We have long ago established that we are kindred spirits that know how to get along. LoL

 

[Blizzard]

I thought of an great analogy for the transparency vs coloration debate.

Let's say you have 2 glasses on the table in front of you. 1 glass is full of the finest vodka this planet has available. The other glass has the most spectacular tasting vodka cocktail you've ever had inside of it.


You can always use that vodka to make the same cocktail, as well as 1000 others, but you'll never make the vodka from that cocktail.

This is why transparency is king!

But unfortunately it's more difficult to make the vodka than the cocktail. Which is why we see so many "boutique" manufacturers taking the cocktail route.

 

[paul79]

Transparency..... Even I use this word allot, but truth be told, there is no such thing in audio. No electronic reproduction of anything can ever be truly transparent. Realness in audio is the combination of the equipment and your brain making sense of what it knows to be correct.

I will mention that the better the equipment and the room, the less your brain has to work to sort things out.

 

[Blizzard]

Transparency..... Even I use this word allot, but truth be told, there is no such thing in audio. No electronic reproduction of anything can ever be truly transparent. Realness in audio is the combination of the equipment and your brain making sense of what it knows to be correct.

I will mention that the better the equipment and the room, the less your brain has to work to sort things out.

The transparency i'm talking about is if the DAC is capable of replicating the exact sound of the source it's provided. For example, if Bruce B ripped an DSD 256 copy of an pristine master tape. Played through a DAC, can a trained human ear tell apart the original master played back next to the same amp/speaker combo from the analog outs of the R2R?

For some DAC manufacturers, this isn't the goal. For some, it is. If we look at it from my previous analogy, some DAC manufacturers are Vodka distillers, and some are bartenders. Yes there's a market for both, but it's good to know the difference.

 

[wisnon]

I thought of an great analogy for the transparency vs coloration debate.

Let's say you have 2 glasses on the table in front of you. 1 glass is full of the finest vodka this planet has available. The other glass has the most spectacular tasting vodka cocktail you've ever had inside of it.


You can always use that vodka to make the same cocktail, as well as 1000 others, but you'll never make the vodka from that cocktail.

This is why transparency is king!

But unfortunately it's more difficult to make the vodka than the cocktail. Which is why we see so many "boutique" manufacturers taking the cocktail route.

First off, I hate Vodka.

2nd the analogy breaks down when you talk about making cocktail, forgetting you have to make the vodka first. Not possible to go directly to the cocktail and cant make great cocktail with poor vodka. Ingredients matter.

I understand your dream/vision and wish you well. but I am not sure it can be done cheaply.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Blizz - so many recordings of great music and great musicians sounds crap due to poor recordings. For me and possibly others who like the rose tinted view - this cocktail better represents what we feel was actually happening in that concert hall / studio or wherever.

 

[Blizzard]

First off, I hate Vodka.

2nd the analogy breaks down when you talk about making cocktail, forgetting you have to make the vodka first. Not possible to go directly to the cocktail and cant make great cocktail with poor vodka. Ingredients matter.

I understand your dream/vision and wish you well. but I am not sure it can be done cheaply.

Well I suppose the studio is the refinery. I guess what the end user needs to decide is if they want it to still be pure when they open the bottle, or do they want it premixed into a cocktail.

 

[Blizzard]

Blizz - so many recordings of great music and great musicians sounds crap due to poor recordings. For me and possibly others who like the rose tinted view - this cocktail better represents what we feel was actually happening in that concert hall / studio or wherever.

Exactly why I'm saying that these colorations that mask the details of these poor recordings should be added in the digital domain. This way when Bruce B produces unbelievable DSD 256 versions of master tapes, this coloration can be disabled so we can hear it as pure as it sounded off the R2R. When you have these colorations built into the hardware, they can't be disabled.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Exactly why I'm saying that these colorations that mask the details of these poor recordings should be added in the digital domain. This way when Bruce B produces unbelievable DSD 256 versions of master tapes, this coloration can be disabled so we can hear it as pure as it sounded off the R2R. When you have these colorations built into the hardware, they can't be disabled.

Blizz - I know you keep saying this but where is this miraculous FIR filter that will do this? We have had tone controls for years. They invariably degrade the experience IMHO.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I for one will be all over your concept if you can give me a digital file that will make my transparent oppo (or if you say that is not transparent enough - a Hapi or any other ss DAC of the day that measures well) that makes it sound like an airforce 1 or an Clearaudio statement or a UHA 12.

Do I think you can do this - unfortunately not. Don't think your filter will ever be able to recreate these are mediums with like for like fidelity - but good luck to you.

I will happily audition you filter if you want to share - I will offer myself up as Guinea Pig.

 

[Blizzard]

Blizz - I know you keep saying this but where is this miraculous FIR filter that will do this? We have had tone controls for years. They invariably degrade the experience IMHO.

You don't even need these filters. All you need is a real good ADC like the Merging Hapi, and temporary use of whatever component that grips your soul and melts your heart with it's wonderful colorations.

 

[Blizzard]

Actually you could make a preset for every file, changing parameters for every recording, too bright — roll off the treble , too much bass etc etc.
Which ties in with your thoughts on the other thread.
Keith.

You can do that with basic EQ on most media software.

 

[wisnon]

Exactly why I'm saying that these colorations that mask the details of these poor recordings should be added in the digital domain. This way when Bruce B produces unbelievable DSD 256 versions of master tapes, this coloration can be disabled so we can hear it as pure as it sounded off the R2R. When you have these colorations built into the hardware, they can't be disabled.

But Bruce himself elects for a Lampi for his playback of choice and is on record as saying its the best DSD he has heard so far….

If this is the case, no reason to change and I highly doubt some software is gonna emulate that for cheap.. That is my point.

 

[Blizzard]

I for one will be all over your concept if you can give me a digital file that will make my transparent oppo (or if you say that is not transparent enough - a Hapi or any other ss DAC of the day that measures well) that makes it sound like an airforce 1 or an Clearaudio statement or a UHA 12.

Do I think you can do this - unfortunately not. Don't think your filter will ever be able to recreate these are mediums with like for like fidelity - but good luck to you.

I will happily audition you filter if you want to share - I will offer myself up as Guinea Pig.

This system I'm talking about isn't going to be a simple FIR VST plugin you can simply import into Jrivers VST convolution engine. It's going to be a software/hardware solution aimed at studios and OEM's. The studio version will be north of $10000.

 

[Blizzard]

But Bruce himself elects for a Lampi for his playback of choice and is on record as saying its the best DSD he has heard so far….

If this is the case, no reason to change and I highly doubt some software is gonna emulate that for cheap.. That is my point.

This is exactly why I asked Bruce if he would make an DSD 256 copy of his favorite DSD 256 from master tape song, from the analog outs of the GG, and play it back through the Hapi, and see if he can tell them apart. But he declined. He's probably going to try, but sharing on a public forum, maybe not.