The Nature of Sound

Folsom

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You are 100% correct in my opinion, and the fact that live performances are just a little more more pinpointable with eyes open I suggest is the power of your brain to make sense of things.

Recently I've been renewing my interest in tension membrane loudspeakers including exciter style transducers and found early Yamaha organs used such a devise and is the origins of their brand name catch phrase "Natural Sound".

As it was alleged with a very convincing visual that I would post if I could find it again, natural sound of musical instruments such as a violin stem from a vibrating string in tension transferring energy to a bridge to the soundboard where the hollow body then resonates and amplifies the sound.

https://organforum.com/forums/forum...ha-ns10-organ-speakers-unique-shaped-speakers


Diffused sound with a 360 spherical distribution pattern is most natural.

EDIT:

Apologies for a failing memory, it was Continental that had the image I recalled.

Actuators instead of tweeters, midrange speakers and subwoofers.
https://www.conti-engineering.com/e...oom/Debut-of-a-revolutionary-sound-experience View attachment 61160


Pinpoint imagery is an artificial artifact of using small conventional drivers.

Um, NO. This is all fooey.
 

Al M.

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Glad to see that people more than not seem to agree with Peter's observations. As Peter said, I was there too and heard the same thing. I should also mention that we sat quite close to the stage, third or fourth row.

Here is what I recently wrote on my system thread:

I have always been at the forefront of defending precise location. Some have falsely argued that live is always one big mono, but this is only true further back in a hall. As long as you sit in the acoustic field where direct sound makes a greater contribution than reflected sound, you CAN in fact locate performers with quite good precision.

However, precision location and precision outline of images are two very different things. I have never heard precision outline of images in live events, and I have attended quite a number of them. Yes, when you keep your eyes open, your overall sensory input may fool you into believing precise outlines. Yet when you close your eyes, and just go by your ears, you will not find precision outlines.


I think Peter's observations at our recent concert experience agree with that.

***

There is the argument that if precisely outlined imaging is on the recording, a system should reproduce that. I don't buy that argument.

First, if pinpoint imaging is a stereo artifact -- and I think it is --, who says that it is expressed more on the recording itself rather than through the reproduction by a system? Who can give the correct answer? I certainly don't know it. If it is the case that pinpoint imaging is more a function of the system presentation than of the recording, then the argument falls flat that what should be reproduced is the imaging that is on the recording.

Second, who knows what is the intention of the recording engineer? If they listen nearfield at a mixing desk they may not even hear the precise pinpoint imaging that is expressed by systems in a 3D space. And if that is the case, how can you claim that pinpoint imaging is intended on the recording?

***

If you enjoy palpable 3D imaging with precise outlines in your system, by all means, go for it. And if you feel that is a nice substitute for the lack of visual clues that you would have in a live concert, no argument from me. But the claim that this is closer to what is on the recording, and how a system should reproduce music just because it can, is tenuous, in my view.
 

Folsom

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It's not an artifact because it isn't generated by the stereo itself - think about it, it's the music you're hearing not some thing else. The stereo is merely portraying things in a way you may or may not like. A lot of low distortion stereos have displayed this characteristic; and obviously show it's part of the music in some way. Unfortunately it tends to be a result of stereo as in two channels. The imperfection of capturing the music to the end use makes outlines be portrayed under lots of circumstances. It's partly that and partly electronics predisposition to bring low level information forward that should not be forward - or just as often fail to bring stuff forward that should be too prominent to hear the outlining.

Think about the recording process, none of that stuff uses weirdo kitty litter boxes or whatever - never has. But in so many was it's like the reversal of a stereo. It has imperfections. It's lower distortion than playback.

The engineers 99.99% of the time are not listening to that attribute at all. They listen for a lot, but not that, not in that way. However things they do listen for may influence it.

If you want to get rid of it then embracing reflections, embracing some distortion, and other things is what you should do if you feel you're stuck in the listening position for whatever reason. The easiest way to get rid of it is to just not sit in the "sweet spot". And once you're not doing that, you can pay attention to the real substance of the music and start making that as best as possible. To me soundstaging and imaging are low substance. They say almost nothing about how the actual music itself sounds. Well except when you use weird gizmos to increase them, they don't positively impact the music itself IME; but hey to each their own if you're into it.
 

PeterA

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I am fascinated by the comments that focus on reproduction and our stereos. The point I'm trying to make is that when I listen to someone speak in a room, people around a dinner table, or when I listen to an instrument or group of instruments, either up close or further back, I never hear a precise outlined image of the musician, instrument, singer, or what have you. Are people arguing that real sound is precise like that, with clearly heard dimensions and shapes, even if heard from really up close?

I think sound can be super clean and clear, but images are not in focus like a photograph. They are a bit fuzzy. Edges are blurred, sometimes more, sometimes less. And depending on the space, the recording, or how it is captured, it varies. There is no absolute, and instruments sound different depending on where they are heard. Often, the whole instrument is vibrating and creating energy in the form of sound. Is this precise and can we easily determine the size and shape with our eyes closed? Not in my experience. We can usually localize the source of the sound quite well, and I don't want to lose the ability to do that from my system. I also want to hear differences between recordings, but I no longer want to "see" precise and outlined images from my audio system.

One of my visitors when asked where the cello was while we listened to a string trio pointed right between the speakers and said "there". He pointed his finger to a location. The other listener heard the cello as a diffuse blob enlarged to fill the space between my two speakers. I heard the cello as being centered about ten feet in front of us and between the viola and violin. It was not huge, and it was not precisely outlined, but the sound was big. What accounts for this difference in perception? This is where subjective listening comes in and different priorities. I think we all hear differently, and we have different ways of describing what we hear. We also prefer different sounds.

I just don't hear a cello as a three foot box of wood fifteen inches above the floor when I hear it played right in front of me. I see it, but it sounds bigger and less specific in shape and size. And because I don't hear it as I see it when listening to it live, under any circumstances, I don't want to hear it precisely outlined from my audio system. My system used to sound more like that, and other systems I know have an even more precise and focused sense of images. I think people like that, which is fine, but, in my experience, that is not how I hear it. That is why I am moving away from it in my listening room.

There have also been some comments that by making the sound more diffuse or less focused, it will all sound the same. This is also not my goal or the effect I hear. In fact, these changes have brought out more differences between recordings, not fewer. I wrote some comments after hearing Al's system a few weeks ago. His system sounded more "alive" to me than it had ever before. It breathes more now. I hear that same thing in my system now. There is more "life" to the sound. There is more air, more atmosphere. This too is what I hear with live music. It breathes, it is full of energy, and it is alive.
 

NorthStar

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ECM is one of my favorite music record labels. The music recording engineers seem to capture the essence the nature of sound of the instruments from the artist performances the best.

I also live David Chesky's recording techniques...you are there raw and uncensored unfiltered.
 

Mike Lavigne

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trying to avoid being sucked into the whole 'tweak' or not to 'tweak', and who is the 'tweak' god who decides what tweak is ok, and what does not get approved. i've avoided these threads about how imaging and presentation ought to be. too much seemingly convincing one's self of the right direction going on....and on.

what i hear in my room is how it should be. never 'cookie-cutter' count the nose hairs type of imaging, but real energy and weight and coherent full frequency bass where it should be and wall to wall, top to bottom, filled in sound-stage. speakers and room completely disappear. you are 109 inches from 3000 pounds of -4- 7 foot tall towers and there is not a sense of any driver or localization of sound from a speaker. no matter how hard it's pushed. it does not get confused or lose it's footing.

images are diffuse, but lines of music are never confused. OTOH expressiveness is rendered clearly, and a sense of chest, or string, or wooden body comes through. it's vivid and live sounding, but not harsh and strident. i push the volume and things scale with ease and authority. the music is involving and dis-belief is suspended.

and i have lots of treatment. tweaks. grounding. power cords. outlets. regenerated power. wall treatments. wood under gear. active isolation.

i got it all.

and to my particular ears, in my particular system, all that room and system development moved me closer to reality. it does not artificially highlight/spotlight pieces over the musical flow and cohesion.

i don't question the path each of us might take to find our own personal reality in music reproduction. it's the result that counts.
 

microstrip

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One of my visitors when asked where the cello was while we listened to a string trio pointed right between the speakers and said "there". He pointed his finger to a location. The other listener heard the cello as a diffuse blob enlarged to fill the space between my two speakers. I heard the cello as being centered about ten feet in front of us and between the viola and violin. It was not huge, and it was not precisely outlined, but the sound was big. What accounts for this difference in perception? This is where subjective listening comes in and different priorities. I think we all hear differently, and we have different ways of describing what we hear. We also prefer different sounds. (...)

Great question, Peter. Although we have differences in hearing, perception is also educated by training. The physical information of localization in stereo is very reduced, most of it is recreated by analysis of small cues interpreted according to our experience. You are trained with your system and many life concerts, naturally your perception was much more accurate than the one of your friends.

This slide (that can seem somewhat provocative when taken out of the context) was
a1.jpg quoted from an excellent presentation of David Griesinger, that also addresses the myths of stereo localization. https://www.slideserve.com/vashon/pitch-timbre-source-separation-and-the-myths-of-sound-localization . IMHO "willingness to guess" and "conflicting cues" are the keywords. As long as audiophiles want to learn, the sound quality of their systems will improve.
 
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NorthStar

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trying to avoid being sucked into the whole 'tweak' or not to 'tweak', and who is the 'tweak' god who decides what tweak is ok, and what does not get approved. i've avoided these threads about how imaging and presentation ought to be. too much seemingly convincing one's self of the right direction going on....and on.

what i hear in my room is how it should be. never 'cookie-cutter' count the nose hairs type of imaging, but real energy and weight and coherent full frequency bass where it should be and wall to wall, top to bottom, filled in sound-stage. speakers and room completely disappear. you are 109 inches from 3000 pounds of -4- 7 foot tall towers and there is not a sense of any driver or localization of sound from a speaker. no matter how hard it's pushed. it does not get confused or lose it's footing.

images are diffuse, but lines of music are never confused. OTOH expressiveness is rendered clearly, and a sense of chest, or string, or wooden body comes through. it's vivid and live sounding, but not harsh and strident. i push the volume and things scale with ease and authority. the music is involving and dis-belief is suspended.

and i have lots of treatment. tweaks. grounding. power cords. outlets. regenerated power. wall treatments. wood under gear. active isolation.

i got it all.

and to my particular ears, in my particular system, all that room and system development moved me closer to reality. it does not artificially highlight/spotlight pieces over the musical flow and cohesion.

i don't question the path each of us might take to find our own personal reality in music reproduction. it's the result that counts.

All true ultra high end audiophiles should aspire to your system Mike, it's the best.
 
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Tango

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The sound is looser, free'er, a little more "diffused" but you can sense the "nucleus" at the sound origin, layer but never outlined, room quiet but not dark, effortlessly energetic and you can sense the sound presentation is "less controlled."

Is this what you are hearing and describing Peter?

As Mike said we choose the presentation we prefer and each has his way to get there. Imo Saying one type of presentation is natural and right only stir the other to defend that theirs are not wrong and unnatural.

I have chosen my presentation and the way to get there. It could also be very different to others and resemble to yours. Closer to natural sound? That depend on who is the judge.
 
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PeterA

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The sound is looser, free'er, a little more "diffused" but you can sense the "nucleus" at the sound origin, layer but never outlined, room quiet but not dark, effortlessly energetic and you can sense the sound presentation is "less controlled."

Is this what you are hearing and describing Peter?

As Mike said we choose the presentation we prefer and each has his way to get there. Imo Saying one type of presentation is natural and right only stir the other to defend that theirs are not wrong and unnatural.

Yes tango you got it. Thank you very much.
 

Folsom

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Are people arguing that real sound is precise like that, with clearly heard dimensions and shapes, even if heard from really up close?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. ^ However to recognize that the process of recording isn't perfect means we know that it tends to add the element that isn't portrayed in real life.

Mike's stereo, I would not call diffuse, as it has everything in a very distinct place in the soundstage. It's unparalleled for soundstage and placement in it - and it's very 3D in placement. If you've got that kind of placement it's not totally diffused. But what it doesn't have is etching, none. It doesn't have an etched outline at all.
 

Al M.

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trying to avoid being sucked into the whole 'tweak' or not to 'tweak', and who is the 'tweak' god who decides what tweak is ok, and what does not get approved. i've avoided these threads about how imaging and presentation ought to be. too much seemingly convincing one's self of the right direction going on....and on.

what i hear in my room is how it should be. never 'cookie-cutter' count the nose hairs type of imaging, but real energy and weight and coherent full frequency bass where it should be and wall to wall, top to bottom, filled in sound-stage. speakers and room completely disappear. you are 109 inches from 3000 pounds of -4- 7 foot tall towers and there is not a sense of any driver or localization of sound from a speaker. no matter how hard it's pushed. it does not get confused or lose it's footing.

images are diffuse, but lines of music are never confused. OTOH expressiveness is rendered clearly, and a sense of chest, or string, or wooden body comes through. it's vivid and live sounding, but not harsh and strident. i push the volume and things scale with ease and authority. the music is involving and dis-belief is suspended.

and i have lots of treatment. tweaks. grounding. power cords. outlets. regenerated power. wall treatments. wood under gear. active isolation.

i got it all.

and to my particular ears, in my particular system, all that room and system development moved me closer to reality. it does not artificially highlight/spotlight pieces over the musical flow and cohesion.

i don't question the path each of us might take to find our own personal reality in music reproduction. it's the result that counts.

Mike, I have lots of room treatment as well, and no cookie cutter imaging either, but a bit diffuse, and as you describe, with lines of music not confused, even though the separation of complex musical lines is not quite as pronounced as is possible in a much larger room as is yours.

So I agree, this is not necessarily an issue of 'tweak' or no 'tweak', but simply of getting it right. I did with also lots of room treatment.

My speakers are now not fully toed out either, but with the same 7 or so degrees slight toe in as we had left it when Ack visited last. It works.
 
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Al M.

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Mike's stereo, I would not call diffuse, as it has everything in a very distinct place in the soundstage. It's unparalleled for esoundstage and placement in it - and it's very 3D in placement. If you've got that kind of placement it's not totally diffused. But what it doesn't have is etching, none. It doesn't have an etched outline at all.

Of course, precise location and lack of etched image outline do not contradict one another. I hear both of these things live, as I pointed out earlier. The lack of etching of outlines though is what I, and others apparently as well, call 'diffuse'.
 

Folsom

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A lot of stereos I hear are not etched, but they don't have anything for a 3D soundstage like Mike's. I just have a hard time with the word diffuse being what describes the other stereos since it is far different than Mike's.
 

Al M.

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A lot of stereos I hear are not etched, but they don't have anything for a 3D soundstage like Mike's. I just have a hard time with the word diffuse being what describes the other stereos since it is far different than Mike's.

Mike used for imaging the term 'diffuse' himself, see his post above. It's not quite clear to me what you are trying to get at.
 

Folsom

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That's nice. I think it belittles the difference between his stereo and say Peter's.
 

Mike Lavigne

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A lot of stereos I hear are not etched, but they don't have anything for a 3D soundstage like Mike's. I just have a hard time with the word diffuse being what describes the other stereos since it is far different than Mike's.

Mike used for imaging the term 'diffuse' himself, see his post above. It's not quite clear to me what you are trying to get at.

holographic does not infer cookie cutter or etched. yes, i do view my presentation as 3D......but not spotlit.

i use diffuse like Peter was using it relative to how a tipped up treble can bring too much edge definition which might be first viewed as detail, but over time becomes revealed as an artifact and 'hyper-detail' and form of distortion. diffuse is just a natural sort of presentation of something we hear. diffuse is how things sound naturally.

diffuse might also refer to an out-of-phase presentation....."too diffuse". so it can be a term used in multiple ways to mean different things.

when i compare a recording to the live event, there are so many variables (listening perspective, mic set-up, editing choices, quality of recording, media, mood watching, etc, etc) that there is a wide variety of possibilities of how they would legitimately compare. no wrong answer.
 
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wil

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I agree.

There will always be a new digital or solid state that up's the bar for what they do, but it's like comparing a stove be it gas or electric to an outdoor BBQ grille. I like the BBQ, or shall I say tubes?

I'm currently demo-ing a tube amp (LTA Ultralinear) and ss (Bakoon 13r) and having a devil of a time deciding. Both are really nice sounding amps and with pluses and minuses each.

The LTA, with it's distortion, brings an organic palpability that the Bakoon simply doesn't have in it's DNA. But, however much I appreciate the harmonic distortion of tube amps, I find they can be fatigue-inducing. I feel my brain is having to extend extra effort to hear through the haze. I haven't heard that many tube amps, granted, but the one's I've had (Luxman and MasterSound) all have this issue.

The Bakoon solid state has a warm, liquid, 3d presentation that blooms from a very, very quiet background. Absolutely, heartbreakingly beautiful tonality-- but compared to the LTA, just a little more of a manufactured sound.

I'm leaning toward the Bakoon-- easier to live with day in/ day out.
 
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morricab

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I'm heading to Walt Disney Hall this evening to enjoy two of Strauss' tone poems. I've been listening to them on my system for the last few days and I'm looking forward to the contrast. I'll report back....
Saw a Jazz concert last night at Tonhalle Zurich. It was a good example of a “diffuse” concert because it was a smallish ensemble in a big hall and I sat not very close to the performers. I did the eyes close/open comparison and the difference was not huge because I had their location in my minds eye. Maybe they spread a bit more with closed eyes but I could still localize.
 
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Ron Resnick

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. . .
Recently I've been renewing my interest in tension membrane loudspeakers

. . .

I would love you to hear Oliver Goebel’s Epoque Aeon Reference bending wave speaker!
 

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