TAD CR1 vs R1

[Eli08]

TADs are certainly musical. But also very trnasparent. Another thing I really like about these speakers (all of them really), is that they show very clear any change you make upstream. Cables, for sure. But per instance also changing the playing mode (conversion) of the DAC. i can tell much easier and hear very clearly the diferences between the alternative conversion modes of the Esoteric D02. And so on. Also I noticed they change quite a lot with placment in the room. Per instance the CR1s bass and dynamics changed quite a lot depending of where you placed them.

The E1s, as said, I think they are giant killers... I have not listened to all the speakers out there of course. But if you compare them to speaker costing more, in my experience you need to spend aprox 3 times its cost to get better sound. And than it is a question of value.

How big is your room? I assume you have listened to the CR1s? They do have a lot of bass. I do not think the E1s has much more bass than the CR1s. Maybe the image is a bit larger in the case of the E1 and may have some more weight or majesty in the presentation, but the biggest diference among them I do not think is bass.

 

[AudioExplorations]

Hi CK,

I moved from the Rockport Ankaa's to the CR1's - the reason being that although I was able to make the speakers work acoustically in my listening room (living room), the depth of the speakers meant they stuck out quite far into the room and this was impractical. As you know Rockport speakers are known to have some of the best bass performance in the industry. I can tell you that the CR1 being flat down to 30Hz equals the Rockport in terms of bass performance however lacks the very lowest octave. I have augmented the CR1's with a pair of high quality subwoofers but usually I do not power them unless I am listening to either classical or certain types of electronic where sub 30Hz bass has been added for 'visceral' reasons. Even with these types of music the CR1's convey all the detail in the bass, I am not missing anything unless I want that 30Hz and below almost subsonic effect where I can feel my chest vibrate to the music. If this is a no miss for you subs are great as you can position them independantly to the speakers; speakers set up for ideal stereo imaging and subs positioned in locations relative to room modes to result in even room pressurization from 30Hz and below.

 

[Eli08]

Yes I listen to lots of classical. The CR1s could do almost all with not problem. They would play the lowest registers of cello incredible. It was only the impact of double bass sometimes where you missed that last bit. And in large symphonic maybe also the weight in presentation again just a bit. But otherwise impressive all around.

On the other hand, musicality, tone accurancy, imaging... Mid bass and how it integrated with other frequencies relative with E1s was one of the biggest diferences among them.

In any case, if cost is not an issue, try hearing both. It is very personal, and overall I think E1s vs CR1s or CR1s + sub (i did not try this one), I would go CR1s. Having said that, maybe for you E1s may work better. I think at almost half the price E1s will make you happy. no doubt they are quite something.

 

[CKKeung]

Hi AudioExplorations & Eli08,

Just called the Pioneer Hong Kong.
Confirmed that the R1 in the photo taken at HK HiFi Show in Aug 2012 is R1 Mk2. It's already available in HK, the list price is about US$76000 per pair. No increase compared with Mk1.
Other than the woofer material, the most important difference is that all R-1 Mk2 are made in Japan whereas in the past, the enclosure of R1 Mk1 was made in China.
And the CR1 Mk2 will come to HK soon.
But the bad news is that Pioneer HK has no plan to import the E-1.

Cheers,
CK

 

[Eli08]

Interesting, thanks. It is very strange that E1 will not go to HK. Wonder what the logic behind that could be. Are you planning on giving a listen to the CR1?

You being closer to all the action, do you see moving manufacturing from china to japan as a big deal or big positive?

 

[LL21]

Interesting, thanks...You being closer to all the action, do you see moving manufacturing from china to japan as a big deal or big positive?

Just a guess:

1. closer quality control
2. China's wage inflation is creeping up a bit...and they're probably starting to charge more too
3. japan's soft economy could also mean Pioneer may prefer to bring in production to keep certain domestic production teams busier/more productive
4. And if they start using new materials, newer technics...who knows?...maybe they prefer a Chinese production company not know these newer innovations...because someday that same company could sell the IP or compete directly
5. other?

 

[Eli08]

3 and 4 make lots of sense to me. It is probably also cost related to some extend, but can not see how it may cost less to buid in japan. Till now drivers were made locally and enclosures in china and they were put together I think in China.

Quality control I assume that was not an issue they faced anyway after so many years of production there. Your point 3 could be a good reason behind.

 

[Emre Üçöz]

I definitely second on quality aspect after seeing the R1 in Turkey.

 

[CKKeung]

Just a guess:
1. closer quality control
2. China's wage inflation is creeping up a bit...and they're probably starting to charge more too
3. japan's soft economy could also mean Pioneer may prefer to bring in production to keep certain domestic production teams busier/more productive
4. And if they start using new materials, newer technics...who knows?...maybe they prefer a Chinese production company not know these newer innovations...because someday that same company could sell the IP or compete directly

Hi Lloyd,
Your guesses are spot on and I agree with all of them. Are you doing business with Mainland Chinese or a professor teaching international trade? HaHa

Particularly Point 2 : wages of Mainland China factory workers has increased not just a bit but > 2 folds during the recent several years! Many factory owners are moving the factories to China's less-developed inland provinces or to less-developed countries such as Vietnam or Cambodia.

Hi Eli08,
Yes, I will listen to the CR1 Mk2 once it's available in Hong Kong for sure!

CK

 

[LL21]

So i met with a gentleman from Pioneer in Tokyo...his businesscard indicated he was the President of TAD. He was a very nice man, and we spent about 40 minutes listening to their full setup. M600, preamp, D600 digital and of course the new Mk II speakers.

Regarding Mk II:
- the speaker is the same as Mk1 other than the Woofer lamination/materials
- It is made in Japan.

On this latter point, it appears that it was originally made in China in a Pioneer-owned factory so as to ensure quality control. But there has been a lot of backlash between China and Japan lately over politics...and as a result, Pioneer felt there was pressure to move manufacturing out of China. In his words, it was always japanese made...but no one wanted to believe it...Made in China has a bad ring in Japan due to political tensions. So they moved manufacturing to Japan.

 

[AudioExplorations]

So i met with a gentleman from Pioneer in Tokyo...his businesscard indicated he was the President of TAD. He was a very nice man, and we spent about 40 minutes listening to their full setup. M600, preamp, D600 digital and of course the new Mk II speakers.

Regarding Mk II:
- the speaker is the same as Mk1 other than the Woofer lamination/materials
- It is made in Japan.

On this latter point, it appears that it was originally made in China in a Pioneer-owned factory so as to ensure quality control. But there has been a lot of backlash between China and Japan lately over politics...and as a result, Pioneer felt there was pressure to move manufacturing out of China. In his words, it was always japanese made...but no one wanted to believe it...Made in China has a bad ring in Japan due to political tensions. So they moved manufacturing to Japan.

Lloyd, any mention as to a potential performance increase from the new woofer? What were your impressions of the full TAD setup?

 

[Eli08]

Thanks a lot Lloyd,

There is certainly a lot of tension going on inside China against Japan for what I see in the news. Hope they manage to solve it. I am by no means an expert in the region but for what I read seems like a loss-loss situation if they dont solve it.

Regarding the made in china tag, it is true is not seen as a quality one for sure, but as a cost driven one. Not only in Japan, but all over. If that is the case or not I guess it will depend, as always. All in all,if the price is the same, I prefer to have something with a made in japan than made in chine tag. However China is catching up in quality, just like Japan did decades ago or South Korea more recently.

Also interested in your views to Joost Qs.

Thanks a lot

 

[ciamara]

Hi everyone. Ciamara is the New York dealer for TAD. We first heard of this "MkII" thing via a poster from the Hong Kong show, and we were surprised and puzzled that we had not been informed. We have since been reassured there will be no material change to the speakers other than the modification to the laminating process. The design and sonics will remain unchanged. We expect to have an official communication from the US rep in the next few days, and we will report back. Please feel free to contact us if we forget! We can be reached at ciamara.com/contact-ciamara.

 

[joeinid]

Thanks Sanjay,

We appreciate the update!

Joe

 

[Eli08]

Thanks Sanjay, i was in NY last july and went by. You are in downtown right? I could not get a hold of anyonen there though. I was very interested in listening to the Reference series.

I have fresh news, from a good source. Not my local TAD people who still do not know much, but others. The change of material has to do, it seems, with TAD not being able to source the raw material of the model 1s. Seems they knew this could come a while back and had been making listening tests and trials for a long time to find the design closest possible to the one already used, soun wise.

With the material and design of the new cones they chosed, in long listening sesions, they could not find a difference from a sonic perspective, some saying equal, others a very very small difference but nothing conclussive. But the drivers under such materials were of different color similar to the ones of the E1s. And so they decided to call it MK2. That they say is the only change, nad the fact that it is now made in Japan.

Strange history... But I think not much to worry about for MK1 owners. If this isnreally the case, why, just why in hell would they call the thing MK2. And why marketingnguys are saying all that about the improvement of new bass drivers, if they were looking for exactly the same sound in any case.

Go figure...

 

[LL21]

Thanks Sanjay, i was in NY last july and went by. You are in downtown right? I could not get a hold of anyonen there though. I was very interested in listening to the Reference series.

I have fresh news, from a good source. Not my local TAD people who still do not know much, but others. The change of material has to do, it seems, with TAD not being able to source the raw material of the model 1s. Seems they knew this could come a while back and had been making listening tests and trials for a long time to find the design closest possible to the one already used, soun wise.

With the material and design of the new cones they chosed, in long listening sesions, they could not find a difference from a sonic perspective, some saying equal, others a very very small difference but nothing conclussive. But the drivers under such materials were of different color similar to the ones of the E1s. And so they decided to call it MK2. That they say is the only change, nad the fact that it is now made in Japan.

Strange history... But I think not much to worry about for MK1 owners. If this isnreally the case, why, just why in hell would they call the thing MK2. And why marketingnguys are saying all that about the improvement of new bass drivers, if they were looking for exactly the same sound in any case.

Go figure...

Having met in Tokyo a few wks ago with the President of one of the TAD companies in the Pioneer Plaza, I got a similar sense. He did not indicate the Mk2 as a massive upgrade, but rather the cone lamination/stiffness (which it sounds like may not be a big change) plus the fact that it is fully manfuctured in Japan...which is for political reasons given what is happening between the 2 countries at the moment.

 

[Eli08]

Yes. My same contact, a TAD Japan insider also tells me that moving to japan production is not to improve quality, but due to operations optimization and for now to political issues. They feel quality at their factory in China is similar and very high in any cas.

 

[LL21]

Sounds like we may have settled the MkI v MkII concerns here. Good news for everyone!

 

[ciamara]

Thanks Sanjay, i was in NY last july and went by. You are in downtown right? I could not get a hold of anyonen there though. I was very interested in listening to the Reference series.

I have fresh news, from a good source. Not my local TAD people who still do not know much, but others. The change of material has to do, it seems, with TAD not being able to source the raw material of the model 1s. Seems they knew this could come a while back and had been making listening tests and trials for a long time to find the design closest possible to the one already used, soun wise.

With the material and design of the new cones they chosed, in long listening sesions, they could not find a difference from a sonic perspective, some saying equal, others a very very small difference but nothing conclussive. But the drivers under such materials were of different color similar to the ones of the E1s. And so they decided to call it MK2. That they say is the only change, nad the fact that it is now made in Japan.

Strange history... But I think not much to worry about for MK1 owners. If this isnreally the case, why, just why in hell would they call the thing MK2. And why marketingnguys are saying all that about the improvement of new bass drivers, if they were looking for exactly the same sound in any case.

Go figure...

Hi Eli - sorry we missed you in New York. We are here, in the downtown area near Wall Street. Did you contact us via phone or email? Please feel free to contact us anytime. There is a contact form and phone number on our website.

 

[Emre Üçöz]

Sounds like we may have settled the MkI v MkII concerns here.

I am not quite sure on this, my dealer said that they will be upgrading theirs Ref1 and CR1 bass units and some other parts? This whole MKII issue still sound fishy to me.