TAD CR1 vs R1

[ciamara]

Considering that the performance of my R1 are incredible high..
Regarding the mk2 issue, i read this on another forum:

"Friday afternoon I did a quick trip across to the Sydney HiFI show and a demo of the CR with full TAD electronics by one of senior guys (other than Andrew Jones) from TAD (the gentleman is often seen running the demo's in Japan and was terrific).

Needless to say the sound was GOOD.

Afterwards I got a chance for a brief chat and I asked was it a CR Mk1 or Mk2 and (talking partially through an interpreter so I apologise if I misunderstood at all) he mentioned that they had tried to get a Mk2 pair for the show but just missed out on production and that he seemed quite excited about the prospect of the Mk2, that the woofer has greater thickness without added mass and that it measures similarly and (as I understood it) sounds in some ways better... it is hard to imagine that it could be too much faster or more pleasing than the Mk1s as I heard them but that seems to be a possibility... have to say his enthusiasm was palpable and really great to see. What a great company."

TAD has officially communicated that there is no difference between the Mk1 and Mk2 in terms of sonics. It is only a matter of a slight color difference, since production was moved from one location to another. The only reason for the Mk2 designation is that if woofers need to be replaced in the field, it will be easy to figure out which color of woofer to use.

 

[AudioExplorations]

Yes this has been confirmed from multiple sources now.

 

[LL21]

TAD has officially communicated that there is no difference between the Mk1 and Mk2 in terms of sonics. It is only a matter of a slight color difference, since production was moved from one location to another. The only reason for the Mk2 designation is that if woofers need to be replaced in the field, it will be easy to figure out which color of woofer to use.

Yes this has been confirmed from multiple sources now.

I met with the Presiden of TAD in Japan when I auditioned their full reference set up...he was very kind to show me through the system and allow me some time to audition it. He said the Mk2 was also done to demarcate the point at which all production is now in Japan. There have been ongoing tensions between China and Japan and politically, even though their cabinetry was done in China, it was completely overseen in a TAD factory managed by Japanese...still, it was no longer politically acceptable to have production in China given the political tensions and riots. So they moved facilities back to Japan and made this announcement as part of the Mk II release.

 

[Alexis]

Thank you all, this are good news,
I was a little disappointed... :-( and surprised.
In my eyes there are no spaces for improvement for this marvelous speaker's..

A

 

[zag]

i am very close in committing to the CR-1...
can owners or experts here help with this may be a dumb question?
the CR-1 is specs at 200W max for power handling from amplifier, does this mean amp rating higher than 200W is not safe to drive the CR-1?

i have dartzeel pre and power combo which i read is a good match for the CR-1 so i am good there, but I like to pair it with the Soulution 501s as well which is rated 250W into 4ohms..

appreciate the comments. TIA!

 

[AudioExplorations]

i am very close in committing to the CR-1...
can owners or experts here help with this may be a dumb question?
the CR-1 is specs at 200W max for power handling from amplifier, does this mean amp rating higher than 200W is not safe to drive the CR-1?

i have dartzeel pre and power combo which i read is a good match for the CR-1 so i am good there, but I like to pair it with the Soulution 501s as well which is rated 250W into 4ohms..

appreciate the comments. TIA!

Not a problem at all, it just means more amp headroom. I drove them with a 450W Burmester 911mk3 amp for about 6 months to good effect (but much prefer the 160W DartZeel 108).

Let us know regarding the DartZ vs soulution! (my feeling is that the DartZ combo will be a tough act to beat).

 

[ciamara]

The power handling of the CR1s is provided as a rough guide. It is difficult to provide this figure, since many factors (such as damping factor, current drive, slew rates, etc.) factor into the overall performance. It would be silly to try to use an 8W power amplifier on the CR1s, since they require much more power. But using an amplifier capable of 350W per channel or more would not harm the speakers (within reason, of course -- don't try 2000W!). More power is sometimes better, but not always. You may also consider bi-amping the speakers. The Soulution amp may be too precise for the CR1s, but the Dartzeel is a decent match. It comes down to personal taste, though. I personally like Viola's amps, and TAD's own amps on the CR1s. And if you want a warmer sound, consider bi-amping with tubes on top.

 

[murrayp]

I have the CR-1s and have now driven them with Devialet, D'Agostino, Sanders Magtech, Halcro DM58 and presently with Soulution 710. Most of those amps are in the 250 - 350W 4 ohm territory (give or take), except the Magtech which achieves around 900W into 4 ohms. The CR-1s are stunningly dynamic (obviously "big motors") and benefit from a powerful amplifier - or at least one that can source the current needed to carry off the transients. TADs own M600 is supposed to be ideal at 600W. After that it is flavours in my experience, but do beware with the CR-1s, they expose all, and any hardness in the sound is not good. Personally I'm a bit stuck as I like realism, and I don't like artificial sweetness at all. The Devialet is pretty good but I feel needs more current and a copper cable to calm it on the CR-1s - too bad mine are rectangular silver - any copper I've tried subtract from the information. The Momentums for me were just a little too warm and interpretative (but I seem to be the only person in the world who thinks this). Bass was not ultimately as tight/extended as the CR-1s can do and treble seemed rolled off. Voices were wonderful - but .... I wasn't convinced this was the signal I was feeding into the amplifier (personally I found ASR similar in this respect though I didn't have the CR-1s then). The Magtech is a good match and I've enjoyed it for many hours - the sheer dynamics are fun. But ultimately I found it not as resolving as the super amps. A friend's Halcro's were stunning, though probably too edgy overall for even my tastes on these speakers - wonderful tops; copper power cables helped. The Soulution 710 is a recent addition and seems to be finally a match in quality at least for the CR-1. There is wonderful clarity in the bass, mids, treble and voice and instruments seem quite natural. The differing characters of cymbals are rendered well. Spatial detail is a step up on the other amplifiers (except the Halcro). From my reading I gather the Soulution 500 series are a step on the warmer side and this would probably be a good thing in most people's views. Tonally the Magtech, Halcro and Soulution were very similar - I think just straight down the middle. I'd say the Halcros were the most obviously resolving, the Soulution just a little creamier (helpful with CR-1, voices benefiting in particular). The TADs would have to be described as forward, and their amplifiers on the other hand are reviewed as a little reticent sometimes - I believe there is a degree of matching there. In the end the CR-1s are stunning speakers quite able to do things other larger speakers can only dream of. But they are very unforgiving and can be incessant in some ways (reminiscent of Yamaha NS1000s maybe?), so I guess be careful what you wish for - you may get it ) I had the Burmester 911 before the TADs arrived and I can't imagine it being a good match - too much brightness in my experience- they do not need a bright amp. BTW, the Magtech power was pretty much unlimited on the CR-1s and they can certainly go very loud before compression is noticeable - most of the time this is irrelevant, but certainly current delivery is needed. The Devialet runs out on this I think, the Magtech does not, and the Soulution, despite being much lower powered, shows no compression until it meets its voltage limits (albeit at a much lower level than the Magtech). In other words for normal listening Soulution provides the dynamic power that lets the speakers shine. But if I had a choice of Soulution sound and Magtech power (.....and could afford it - M600s anyone?) I'd go for it.

So ..... I guess all this just says the CR-1s revel with a bit of power and I think the Soulution 500 series would be a worthy match if you are a fan of unadorned sound. Another I thought might work well was Constellation Centaur but maybe it's early days on those. I haven't had the opportunity to try TAD, Dartzeel or Viola sorry.

 

[AudioExplorations]

Very interesting impressions, thanks for sharing Murray.

 

[Emre Üçöz]

The Soulution 710 is a recent addition and seems to be finally a match in quality at least for the CR-1. There is wonderful clarity in the bass, mids, treble and voice and instruments seem quite natural. The differing characters of cymbals are rendered well. Spatial detail is a step up on the other amplifiers (except the Halcro).

I had a totally different experience with Soulution 710 with TAD CR1. I own Soulution 720 & 710, while going for speaker change I have auditioned both CR1 and Ref1 with Soulution gear but I was disappointed about hte perfromance specifically vs TAD own gear. There was a clear synergy between TAD speakers and power amps. Since I didnot want to change my Soulution gear I have postponed TAD speaker purchase.

 

[edorr]

Is anyone aware of a pair of R1s (or CR1s), set up in the atlanta area, with an owner that is amenable to letting me hear them? I am quite intrigued by these speakers and if a reasonably priced used pair showed up I would consider jumping on them, but it would be nice to have a chance to listen first. An out of state trip to a dealer is not in the cards - besides, I don't want to waste a dealers time, because I have no intention of buying these speakers new.

 

[ciamara]

I have the CR-1s and have now driven them with Devialet, D'Agostino, Sanders Magtech, Halcro DM58 and presently with Soulution 710. Most of those amps are in the 250 - 350W 4 ohm territory (give or take)...

Powering the TAD CR1s and TAD R1s to get the best performance is an art and science. It is important to know a few things, however, before making recommendations. If the room is bright (which is the case in most audiophiles' rooms that I have been to), or if listening at a close distance to the speakers (8 feet or less), the speakers will seem bright. Beryllium is extremely fast and extended, so the resolution (or edginess) in the recordings will be passed through. A smoother amplifier will help, but at the expense of resolution. Or the room can be better treated (best idea). It also helps to bi-amp the speakers. There are trade-offs with amplifiers. The more power, the better the bottom end and mid-bass slam, but amplifiers that are too big also lose some resolution (not all of them, but many). So it is usually better to use a powerful amp on the bass drivers and a more detailed amp on the mid/high drivers. We did exactly this at the recent NY Show, and although we had a fairly bright room to deal with, the sound was appropriately resolving without etch. Hope that helps.

 

[murrayp]

I had a totally different experience with Soulution 710 with TAD CR1. I own Soulution 720 & 710, while going for speaker change I have auditioned both CR1 and Ref1 with Soulution gear but I was disappointed about hte perfromance specifically vs TAD own gear. There was a clear synergy between TAD speakers and power amps. Since I didnot want to change my Soulution gear I have postponed TAD speaker purchase.

Maybe this is not a different experience but rather confirmation that the TAD gear operates to a much higher level again. I did not have the opportunity to compare the TAD amplifiers - simply the Soulution is the best match I have achieved so far. Emre's comment indicates there is better to be achieved though ......oh, well I'll keep trying )

Sanjay, yes I listen quite closely - maybe 10 feet, but I feel the room is over damped. I'd have to agree that powering them is an "art and a science" (based on my random / self experience) - may be easily overcome by either a) using matching TAD gear or b) having a dealer who can guide one.

 

[Alexis]

Powering the TAD CR1s and TAD R1s to get the best performance is an art and science. It is important to know a few things, however, before making recommendations. If the room is bright (which is the case in most audiophiles' rooms that I have been to), or if listening at a close distance to the speakers (8 feet or less), the speakers will seem bright. Beryllium is extremely fast and extended, so the resolution (or edginess) in the recordings will be passed through. A smoother amplifier will help, but at the expense of resolution. Or the room can be better treated (best idea). It also helps to bi-amp the speakers. There are trade-offs with amplifiers. The more power, the better the bottom end and mid-bass slam, but amplifiers that are too big also lose some resolution (not all of them, but many). So it is usually better to use a powerful amp on the bass drivers and a more detailed amp on the mid/high drivers. We did exactly this at the recent NY Show, and although we had a fairly bright room to deal with, the sound was appropriately resolving without etch. Hope that helps.

Hi Sanjay, very interesting. I agree with you statement!
In terms of bi-amping.. how did you handle the different gains of the different amplifiers? this is not an easy task...
other question: the R1 that have led to the exposure of NY, were the mk2 or mk1? (In the pics postet on stereophile they were protections on the woofers ..)
Can you tell us if you've noticed differences from the mk1?
Thank tou very much
Alex

 

[AudioExplorations]

So it is usually better to use a powerful amp on the bass drivers and a more detailed amp on the mid/high drivers.

I was always told bi-amping with different amps is a no-no due to driver integration/coherency issues at the crossover region in using amps with different characteristics (speed, slew rates, response time, damping factors, etc). It sounds like you are getting some great results doing this though.

Personally I have tested the DartZeel 108 on the mid/high with the Burmester 911mk3 on the lows for a few days (gain matched of course) and I preferred the coherency and precision of the single 108. I have a relatively small and well damped listening room with first reflection point absorption/diffusion so the extra power & damping factor from the 911 did not being any audible gains. In a bigger room this may have pushed the needle though...

 

[ciamara]

With respect to the R1s at the show, they were the MK1's. There is no appreciable difference with the MK2's -- as discussed elsewhere on the forum (perhaps earlier in this thread), the only reason for the MK2 designation is a slight change in color. Performance-wise, they are functionally equivalent.

With respect to bi-amping, it can be easy or hard, depending on what is being mixed and matched. Not all amplifiers have the same gain structure, and not all amplifiers marry well together. For the NY Show we used a calculated gain structure of +26dB to ensure proper matching and voicing. When using tubes and solid state together, there has to be a way to modify the gain and impedance. It may also be necessary to adjust phase (not simply 0 or 180, but on a continuous basis). ICs and other less refined means of attenuation can really destroy the resolution and power, so it is important to use very good attenuation at the line level.

To deal with this situation, which has been coming up over and over again, we designed a unique bass amplifier with variable output gain. It works exceedingly well with the TAD CR1s, R1s and E1s. If you favor a full, rich, impactful sound, this is the only amplifier that I'm aware of that will work together with delicate solid state or tube amps and provide a cohesive sound. If anyone is interested in trying one, let us know.