System Distortion Poll II

[dallasjustice]

One thing is for certain; garbage in equals garbage out. The source has to be right, or all bets are off.

Is this statement a little bit post hoc ergo propter hoc? I mean are you suggesting that since the playback device happens in the chain before everything else, it must be the primary determiner for quality sound?

 

[mep]

Is this statement a little bit post hoc ergo propter hoc? I mean are you suggesting that since the playback device happens in the chain before everything else, it must be the primary determiner for quality sound?

Calling Ivor T...

 

[Whatmore]

Room, room, room, speakers

 

[dallasjustice]

Calling Ivor T...

I am not talking about digital vs analog. I am just pointing out this oft used logical fallacy employed to sell all kinds of gear; turntables, DACs, new vinyl pressings, power cables, expensive servers and so called "hi-rez" downloads.

Michael.

 

[GaryProtein]

I repeat my question - are you considering the "good" or the "bad" distortions?

There is no "good" distortion.

Asking about good distortion vs bad distortion is like asking if you would you rather have your leg amputated because of gangrene or MRSA.

Neither is a desirable circumstance.

The room and speakers are critical, and as far as measurable distortion is concerned, the distortion of speakers is at least ten times that of the amplifier.

 

[acg]

I would suggest Room - Speakers - Amplification - Source but I don't see that option there.

 

[puroagave]

choosing speakers as contributing the least distortion I would never have thought. those that voted this way, please explain why you did.

 

[GaryProtein]

I would suggest Room - Speakers - Amplification - Source but I don't see that option there.

I thought the same thing.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tough one. If you include the recording in"source" this becomes meaningless. The recording could be the greatest or the least contributor, and it will usually be impossible to tell which it is. Source hardware is nearly as difficult, without knowing what kind. But I can certainly understand why you didn't want to go there.

Tim

 

[beaur]

Depends on how you look at it, and how you define distortion. What is your benchmark? The actual performance or the recording of that performance we purchase? Also do you consider "hall sound" etc distortions or effects? Are harmonics distortions?

I have found that I am not interested in getting the "purest" sound out of my system. Just interested in getting a tone that sounds right to me. The biggest impediment to that in my house is/has been the room. The type of amp then comes next. I have changed the sound dramatically by changing speakers but that involves swapping mini monitors with large speakers etc. I generally find that keeping within the same type/class of speaker I don't notice/care about the changes as much.

 

[Gregadd]

A chain is only as its weakest link. The distortion is cumulative.

 

[microstrip]

There is no "good" distortion.

Asking about good distortion vs bad distortion is like asking if you would you rather have your leg amputated because of gangrene or MRSA.

Neither is a desirable circumstance.

The room and speakers are critical, and as far as measurable distortion is concerned, the distortion of speakers is at least ten times that of the amplifier.

GrayProtein,

I fail to see any connection between your statement and what we are debating - distortion in sound reproduction using stereo systems.

All systems sound different - some sound a lot better than others, in the sense that they are preferred by significant majorities of listeners. Do you agree that distortion, as used by the OP, is what separates them?

 

[dallasjustice]

Distortion is anything but the music before it hits a mic. If that's my definition, then Gary is correct. If that's not your definition, I get what you are saying and it makes alot of sense. But I felt like my definition is more universal. I mean, everyone just wants to hear the music, right?

GrayProtein,

I fail to see any connection between your statement and what we are debating - distortion in sound reproduction using stereo systems.

All systems sound different - some sound a lot better than others, in the sense that they are preferred by significant majorities of listeners. Do you agree that distortion, as used by the OP, is what separates them?

 

[microstrip]

Distortion is anything but the music before it hits a mic. If that's my definition, then Gary is correct. If that's not your definition, I get what you are saying and it makes alot of sense. But I felt like my definition is more universal. I mean, everyone just wants to hear the music, right?

I see what you mean - your definition of distortion is so general that transcends signals or waverforms - it seems to me you are referring to musical enjoyment and/or people preferences. Unless you want to debate easiness of assembling a system or the probability of success, IMHO ranking the different contributions is so vague that the ranking is mostly due to the interpretation of the question.

 

[dallasjustice]

I think we can draw some conclusions from my poll question that are useful to those interested in high quality music reproduction. If you don't like my poll question, feel free to start your own poll.

I see what you mean - your definition of distortion is so general that transcends signals or waverforms - it seems to me you are referring to musical enjoyment and/or people preferences. Unless you want to debate easiness of assembling a system or the probability of success, IMHO ranking the different contributions is so vague that the ranking is mostly due to the interpretation of the question.

 

[GaryProtein]

GrayProtein,

I fail to see any connection between your statement and what we are debating - distortion in sound reproduction using stereo systems.

All systems sound different - some sound a lot better than others, in the sense that they are preferred by significant majorities of listeners. Do you agree that distortion, as used by the OP, is what separates them?

Once the recording is made, THAT is the performance you play back. You never hear what was heard in the studio at the recording. You hear what you hear at home. The rooms are different and so are the studio speakers. The recording is set in stone and it is what it is.

The "source" as I understand it in stereo terms is the CD player or turntable/arm/cartridge, NOT the medium of the recording. Dallasjustice (the OP) is asking about the playback equipment and environment in our listening rooms.

Distortion is not what necessarily separates the good, bad and the ugly when it comes to sound reproduction in our rooms. Frequency response and "flatness" of response and room features like echo and ringing affects the sound tremendously. Do you want any type of distortion in your playback? I fail to see how anything but the recording is what you want to hear, unless you want it adulterated. NO distortion is good -- it is all stuff that isn't on the recording, so I don't want any of it. I want the recording, the whole recording and nothing but the recording. There is no "good" distortion. That's why our rooms and speakers must be held to high qualities. The rest of the electronic chain is much less important.

Systems sound different from each other due to characteristics of the rooms, speakers, amplifiers and CD players or TT/arm/cart characteristics.

 

[microstrip]

I think we can draw some conclusions from my poll question that are useful to those interested in high quality music reproduction. If you don't like my poll question, feel free to start your own poll.

I mainly participated because I was trying to understand the poll and reading that each of us has a different interpretation of "distortion". What type of useful conclusion are you expecting from this poll?

And no, I do not want to start any poll. Just wanted to participate in yours.

 

[Al M.]

^^ Actually microphones can be uncanny at how good they are. So too headphones and mic preamps.

IMO the biggest degradation seems to occur in the recording media and in that regard there are no clear winners. So I can see why all that got left out.

How do you know that microphones are that good? By judging with headphones or with speaker systems?

With headphones you cannot judge detail since headphones by their very nature present detail differently than music in front of you. With headphones you also cannot judge if the mic correctly captures the physical impact of the music.

With speaker systems you run into speaker and room distortions and colorations, as well as amplifier behavior. So this will not allow to judge the mic performance properly either, i.e. if it delivers a faithful copy of the live music that it captures.

Fact is that I have never heard any system that properly captures all the timbral detail and color of live music, let alone delivers a faithful copy of its physical impact (just try to reproduce a solo violin and compare with live sound). Regardless how expensive, or if analog or digital (in the larger picture that we are talking about, of live vs. reproduced music, the debate about storage/playback medium becomes almost a side show, especially with today's progress in digital -- it's not 1984 or even 2004 anymore).

So I suspect that the microphone(s) may be a major culprit here, even before the music hits the mic preamp or any storage medium.

It would make sense since, like the speakers and room, the microphone has physical moving parts or physical interaction with the music. Also, by its very physical shape, a mic cannot 'hear' the music like human ears do -- see also for that reason the exploration of binaural recording.

Furthermore, it's not just the mic, it's also how it's used. For example, I have repeatedly heard (and seen in photos) that string quartets are recorded from above. That is a sound perspective that differs from what the listener hears at their seat in the hall. Also orchestras are often recorded with hanging microphones.

All this introduces distortion from the live experience right there.

In this context I also find the following post by Gary on the thread 'Tired of formats, nostalgic for great 44/16 music' interesting:

Yes, I agree. You musicians have the hardest job. You play not knowing what you will eventually sound like on the recording. I've been at a recording console on a pair of headphones, and the recording engineer was switching between two mikes and trying to decide on the mike to use for the take. Both were excellent, but they sounded absolutely different.

As a musician, the sound you hear is so different from the sound we hear. Sitting at a piano, and sitting in the audience listening to the piano (even a couple of feet away) you could be listening to two completely different pianos.

 

[dallasjustice]

Did you vote?

I mainly participated because I was trying to understand the poll and reading that each of us has a different interpretation of "distortion". What type of useful conclusion are you expecting from this poll?

And no, I do not want to start any poll. Just wanted to participate in yours.

 

[hvbias]

I was tempted to throw in a source first vote; the Linn-atics are grossly under represented on this forum (for the better )

The non-comedy vote is I agree with the majority. Room, speakers, but I could see it as vice versa as well.