System Distortion Poll II

[dallasjustice]

From most distortion to least distortion, which system component contributes to audible distortion at the seated position?

This is not a public poll. It will close in 10 days. I did my best to list the most combinations given the restriction of 10 choices for the poll. I intentionally didn't include other parts of the "system" due to complexity and variation. The parts I included are parts that all 2CH systems must have and, IMO, are the most important parts of a 2CH system.
*** This is part II. This poll includes the system combinations that are most popular.

Enjoy.

Michael.

 

[Speedskater]

You missed some of the 24 possible combinations, but I voted anyway.

 

[dallasjustice]

You missed some of the 24 possible combinations, but I voted anyway.

I could only do 10 choices. I am open to criticism. Which ones would you have liked to seen added?

 

[Ethan Winer]

First, by "distortion" do you mean nonlinear distortion as in THD and IMD, or just any change at all? Assuming "any change," the correct order IMO is:

Room
Speakers
Everything else in any order

I don't include the source because that's a given and beyond what you can control. (Other than not buying poor sounding recordings.) But if you do want to include the source, then you have to judge the potential fidelity of each medium. So then:

Vinyl records
Analog tape
MP3 at least 128 kbps or better
CDs

--Ethan

 

[Al M.]

First, by "distortion" do you mean nonlinear distortion as in THD and IMD, or just any change at all? Assuming "any change," the correct order IMO is:

Room
Speakers
Everything else in any order

I agree. An untreated room can introduce huge distortions, the magnitude of which was clear to me after proper room treatment *), and speakers have a THD that is much larger than most amps produce (except perhaps SET's driven to max power). Also, both room and speakers introduce colorations.

_______

*) A lot of what I had perceived as potential digital harshness prior to room treatment was not that at all -- it was primarily room reflections. To some extent it was also electronic noise from the amps' power supplies (the latter taken care of by a recent upgrade to BorderPatrol external power supplies). Granted, the switch from my old Wadia 12 DAC to the Berkeley DAC eliminated some more harshness, but this was only in the order of 10-15 % of the total, and now there is no harshness anymore with good recordings.

 

[microstrip]

I repeat my question - are you considering the "good" or the "bad" distortions?

 

[Al M.]

I could only do 10 choices. I am open to criticism. Which ones would you have liked to seen added?

-- Room, speakers, amplifier, source
-- Room, speakers, anything else

 

[dallasjustice]

-- Room, speakers, amplifier, source
-- Room, speakers, anything else

I thought that combination wouldn't be as common. The reason is that I would include the musical recording along with the playback device as the "source." When I look at it like that, I couldn't imagine ranking an amplifier as lower distortion than the "source."

 

[dallasjustice]

I define "distortion" as anything other than the actual musical performance before it hits the mics/mixing board.

 

[dallasjustice]

I didn't want to get into different types of sources. I am sure you could understand why.

First, by "distortion" do you mean nonlinear distortion as in THD and IMD, or just any change at all? Assuming "any change," the correct order IMO is:

Room
Speakers
Everything else in any order

I don't include the source because that's a given and beyond what you can control. (Other than not buying poor sounding recordings.) But if you do want to include the source, then you have to judge the potential fidelity of each medium. So then:

Vinyl records
Analog tape
MP3 at least 128 kbps or better
CDs

--Ethan

 

[Al M.]

I thought that combination wouldn't be as common. The reason is that I would include the musical recording along with the playback device as the "source." When I look at it like that, I couldn't imagine ranking an amplifier as lower distortion than the "source."

O.k., now that you include the recording in the source I see your point. The source is distorted from the live event almost inevitably starting with the microphone feed, before it hits any storage/playback medium (no analog/digital debate needed). I voted,
Room, Speakers, Source, Amplifier
like most so far.

 

[Lee]

I'm having trouble voting as I believe one of the most important factors is the speaker and amp in combination.

 

[Al M.]

O.k., now that you include the recording in the source I see your point. The source is distorted from the live event almost inevitably starting with the microphone feed, before it hits any storage/playback medium (no analog/digital debate needed).

In fact, couldn't it be that the microphone feed is by far the largest source of distortion and the main reason why any audio reproduction is considerably removed from actual live music?

 

[dallasjustice]

I'm having trouble voting as I believe one of the most important factors is the speaker and amp in combination.

Speaker, amplifier, room, source is an option.

 

[Atmasphere]

^^ Actually microphones can be uncanny at how good they are. So too headphones and mic preamps.

IMO the biggest degradation seems to occur in the recording media and in that regard there are no clear winners. So I can see why all that got left out.

I too think the room is the most important, IMO ~50% of the total system. Next is a tossup between amps and speakers- so much depends on the speaker design and amplifier design, and how they interact. We also have to consider that the human ear/brain system is a lot more sensitive to some types of distortion (examples include IM and higher ordered harmonics) and other forms of distortion not so much (frequency response errors, lower ordered harmonics being some examples).

I did not vote.


Preamps, if done right will contribute the least distortion.

 

[dallasjustice]

Preamps, if done right will contribute the least distortion.

I left preamps out because not everyone needs one and also what you said; it's not relatively significant when done right.

 

[microstrip]

Dallasjustice,

Now that I understand what you are wanting I feel that it is impossible to to rank the importance of them. We can ask what seems more difficult to tune, but the all these aspects are strongly interconnected. Some speakers will only sound good in an appropriate room, and need some specific type of electronics.

IMHO this question could be formulated as : looking at your current system what were ranking of the priorities you have in it. Many times we do not do what we think that ideally should be done.

 

[Mosin]

One thing is for certain; garbage in equals garbage out. The source has to be right, or all bets are off.

 

[microstrip]

One thing is for certain; garbage in equals garbage out. The source has to be right, or all bets are off.

IMHO, more than right. The characteristics of the sound quality of the source will define what is possible to get with your system and how you should orient it. You should start with a source that respects your preferences.

 

[dallasjustice]

I don't have any mysterious agenda. My only purpose is to see how other folks might approach reducing distortions. Nothing more. I don't accept "everything matters the same." It may sound good coming from an audio dealer that wants to sell as many boxes as possible. It might also sound plausible on a forum, but it's not reality.

Some parts of a system matter more than others. That's what we are talking about here. It appears that almost everyone puts some combination of speaker/room as the biggest contributors to system distortion. If you don't agree with that, feel free to vote otherwise. I am not going to argue with anyone that disagrees with me. I think those that pick source first have a legit argument to make, especially with some very poorly recorded/captured material.

Dallasjustice,

Now that I understand what you are wanting I feel that it is impossible to to rank the importance of them. We can ask what seems more difficult to tune, but the all these aspects are strongly interconnected. Some speakers will only sound good in an appropriate room, and need some specific type of electronics.

IMHO this question could be formulated as : looking at your current system what were ranking of the priorities you have in it. Many times we do not do what we think that ideally should be done.