Tired of formats, nostalgic for great 44/16 music

[edorr]

Food for thought.....I played a SACD DSD rip of Patricia Barbers (an bit of a heroin in audiophile circles) "Verse" (out of print - selling for $150 on eBay) in native DSD (DoP) yesterday, and then a plain old rip of her CD "Mythologies". The CD sounded better.

Bottom line: Recording quality trumps format any day of the week, and the differences between well recorded 44/16 and DSD on state of the art hardware are minimal.

My hope: Hardware will get better to the point where 44/16 becomes totally musically satifying at a realistic pricepoint, and differences between 44/16 and high rez will become marginal. The frenzy about format will go away and we can all just go back to enjoying music.....

Probably won't happen, because new formats drive new new markets (hardware and software), but I for one will be playing my favorite 44/16 music until the day I die, bought sometimes over 20 years ago, deeply ingrained in my brain, and totally musically satisfying.....

Shoot me....

 

[garylkoh]

Hear, Hear! Music always trumps formats. I use the formats where I can get the music I like, not try to like the music I can get in a preferred format.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Food for thought.....I played a SACD DSD rip of Patricia Barbers (an bit of a heroin in audiophile circles) "Verse" (out of print - selling for $150 on eBay) in native DSD (DoP) yesterday, and then a plain old rip of her CD "Mythologies". The CD sounded better.

Bottom line: Recording quality trumps format any day of the week, and the differences between well recorded 44/16 and DSD on state of the art hardware are minimal.

My hope: Hardware will get better to the point where 44/16 becomes totally musically satifying at a realistic pricepoint, and differences between 44/16 and high rez will become marginal. The frenzy about format will go away and we can all just go back to enjoying music.....

Probably won't happen, because new formats drive new new markets (hardware and software), but I for one will be playing my favorite 44/16 music until the day I die, bought sometimes over 20 years ago, deeply ingrained in my brain, and totally musically satisfying.....

Shoot me....

B1: Yep

B2: We're already there, but the frenzy about format will not go away because people will hear what they want to hear and they want to hear something better.

Tim

 

[Andre Marc]

Food for thought.....I played a SACD DSD rip of Patricia Barbers (an bit of a heroin in audiophile circles) "Verse" (out of print - selling for $150 on eBay) in native DSD (DoP) yesterday, and then a plain old rip of her CD "Mythologies". The CD sounded better.

Bottom line: Recording quality trumps format any day of the week, and the differences between well recorded 44/16 and DSD on state of the art hardware are minimal.

My hope: Hardware will get better to the point where 44/16 becomes totally musically satifying at a realistic pricepoint, and differences between 44/16 and high rez will become marginal. The frenzy about format will go away and we can all just go back to enjoying music.....

Probably won't happen, because new formats drive new new markets (hardware and software), but I for one will be playing my favorite 44/16 music until the day I die, bought sometimes over 20 years ago, deeply ingrained in my brain, and totally musically satisfying.....

Shoot me....

Great thread. I NEVER listen to formats, only tunes!

Format fetishists are a REAL drag.

 

[edorr]

B2: We're already there, but the frenzy about format will not go away because people will hear what they want to hear and they want to hear something better.

Tim

We're there except for the realistic pricepoint bit. To squeeze performance out of 44/16 to the point that resolution becomes (almost) moot, you still need to spend an inordinate amount of money on hardware. This will hopefully go away (at which point my MSB DAC will be worth 10% of what I paid for it ....ouch...)

 

[GaryProtein]

The difference between Hi-Rez and 44/16 is mostly in the mastering--not the playback.

When a recording is to be marketed at a relatively high price point, they try to do a better job mastering the recording (they don't always succeed) than they do for a redbook cd. Hence, an SACD or Hi-Rez download may sound better, but not always.

 

[LL21]

I am so in agreement here...i decided a while ago after tons of searching, speaking with audiophiles, professionals, etc...(and auditioning hi-res downloaded files, SACD, DVD-A and redbook)...to stick with plain old 16/44.1 redbook and get the best possible playback i could afford. Music availability was the key driver, plus the comment about mastering making more difference than ultimate format. I have a ton of el cheapo CDs i have been buying voraciously on Amazon second hand for an average of 3 bucks each. I am in the fortunate position of having found a second-hand Zanden 4-box set and that is me done. Yes, it was very expensive even second hand, and its taken me 5 years to get it...but i have no desire to look at hi-res or other formats. I just listen to music.

 

[rbbert]

I don't know that I'd be happy with only 16/44.1 if the mastering were good, but I'd certainly be much happier!

 

[Bruce B]

It takes great skill and good equipment recording and mastering 16/44.1 formats for audiophiles. The higher rez formats you have a little bit of wiggle room.

 

[GaryProtein]

Hear, Hear! Music always trumps formats. I use the formats where I can get the music I like, not try to like the music I can get in a preferred format.

There is a lot of Hi-Rez music that is beautifully recorded that isn't worth spending five minutes listening to.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am so in agreement here...i decided a while ago after tons of searching, speaking with audiophiles, professionals, etc...(and auditioning hi-res downloaded files, SACD, DVD-A and redbook)...to stick with plain old 16/44.1 redbook and get the best possible playback i could afford. Music availability was the key driver, plus the comment about mastering making more difference than ultimate format. I have a ton of el cheapo CDs i have been buying voraciously on Amazon second hand for an average of 3 bucks each. I am in the fortunate position of having found a second-hand Zanden 4-box set and that is me done. Yes, it was very expensive even second hand, and its taken me 5 years to get it...but i have no desire to look at hi-res or other formats. I just listen to music.

i respect your perspective about how you made your decision about focusing on redbook 16/44. i would only question your list of audiophiles, industry people etc. you used to help make the decision. since so few people have had access to much hi-rez of course they will 'believe in' redbook. until those people have access to a large amount of hi-rez files, how could they make a value judgement on it?

just keep your mind open is all.

i'm not saying that redbook is not worthy. only that people who have not taken the trouble to live with significant amounts of hirez (PCM and dsd) over time are not really in a position to judge it. listening to a few hirez files here and there does not really reveal the whole picture.

and i don't want to over state the hi-rez case either. it's generally better by degrees, not night and day. but the differences are musically significant enough that i clearly prefer to listen to them when i can choose. i have redbook discs and files that are better than hirez versions.....a few of them. but 90%+ of hirez is better than the same recording in redbook in my experience.

for 2 years i've listened to mostly my music server, not discs. and i have a few thousand CD's on the server, and about 5 terabytes of hi-rez files.

i'm not saying there are not wonderful redbook only digital players and transport/dacs.....i could certainly live with an all-redbook system and enjoy it completely. but there is 'more' if one wants it.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Bottom line: Recording quality trumps format any day of the week, and the differences between well recorded 44/16 and DSD on state of the art hardware are minimal.

My hope: Hardware will get better to the point where 44/16 becomes totally musically satifying at a realistic pricepoint, and differences between 44/16 and high rez will become marginal. The frenzy about format will go away and we can all just go back to enjoying music.....

Probably won't happen, because new formats drive new new markets (hardware and software), but I for one will be playing my favorite 44/16 music until the day I die, bought sometimes over 20 years ago, deeply ingrained in my brain, and totally musically satisfying.....

Shoot me....

Edorr,

Every time I read such kind of postings, I remember the song of Jennifer Warmes "Joan of Arc",

"I'm tired of the war,
I want the kind of work I had before,
a wedding dress or something white
to wear upon my swollen appetite."

It happens to everyone, even me. Would not be a nice world if hardware improved to a point that 44/16 would be the perfect sound forever and we could forget about all the rest? And then we get all the possible arguments - it is the music that counts, mastering is more important than format, audiophile recordings are not my type of music, we pick a few examples without statistical value to support our view and we are serene for a little time. Then, all at a sudden we put an LP in the turntable or a good SACD in an excellent player, or an decent HiRez recording - and suddenly re-find what we are loosing. And it all starts again!
And yes, I also dream (and fear, as the set it is very expensive ) that a DCS Vivaldi would make my CD's sound better than any of my LPs ...

 

[edorr]

Would not be a nice world if hardware improved to a point that 44/16 would be the perfect sound forever and we could forget about all the rest?

You are missing the point. I'm not looking for perfect SOUND. No doubt a stellar SACD recording is better than my 44/16 file. I'm looking for perfect MUSIC, and if I find it, I do indeed forget aout the rest. The chances of finding it on high rez are at about 3 orders of magnutide lower than on 44/16. At the same time 44/16 on good hardware sounds like 90% of the best high rez to me. Hence I lost interest in high rez. I'm still a bit of a sucker for MCH Blu Ray, and try to scoop op whatever good concert video comes along.....

 

[LL21]

i respect your perspective about how you made your decision about focusing on redbook 16/44. i would only question your list of audiophiles, industry people etc. you used to help make the decision. since so few people have had access to much hi-rez of course they will 'believe in' redbook. until those people have access to a large amount of hi-rez files, how could they make a value judgement on it?

just keep your mind open is all.

i'm not saying that redbook is not worthy. only that people who have not taken the trouble to live with significant amounts of hirez (PCM and dsd) over time are not really in a position to judge it. listening to a few hirez files here and there does not really reveal the whole picture.

and i don't want to over state the hi-rez case either. it's generally better by degrees, not night and day. but the differences are musically significant enough that i clearly prefer to listen to them when i can choose. i have redbook discs and files that are better than hirez versions.....a few of them. but 90%+ of hirez is better than the same recording in redbook in my experience.

for 2 years i've listened to mostly my music server, not discs. and i have a few thousand CD's on the server, and about 5 terabytes of hi-rez files.

i'm not saying there are not wonderful redbook only digital players and transport/dacs.....i could certainly live with an all-redbook system and enjoy it completely. but there is 'more' if one wants it.

Mike

Thanks for that...you have a vast amount of experience, and more sources of super high end than just about anyone i can think of, off-hand. So i respect your authority on this one. The people i have spoken with include a pretty wide range: 3 Editor in Chiefs of Magazines, 3 Engineers from cable, speaker and electronics companies, a retired BBC studio engineer and more than a few dealers of both 16/44 and hi-res equipment. These are people I have spoken with on numerous occassions about other matters where their opinions proved (to me) sound and considered.

I do not doubt with the kind of effort you put into audio, i could find a hi-res system that would be breathtaking...i can already think of 3 in fact that i would consider...and with further effort, i could go out an originate at least a couple hundred hi-res albums that would blow me away.

But in truth, its not just about effort...its also about the money. I prefer not to split my financial resources as well as my time on this...I'd rather have the best possible redbook i could afford and enjoy the bulge bracket of music availability...than have a good redbook and a good hi-res and have a split collection. Will I someday go for tape or something else? Probably not...i have been doing this long enough to know where i am prepared to keep going and where i have no interest.

I am sure i will pursue hi-res digital however...just not today and not until availability is more widespread. In the meantime, thanks for the advice and no doubt when i can listen to a system like yours with hi-res, i will start to learn more about how great it can really be.

 

[egidius]

Hear, Hear! Music always trumps formats. I use the formats where I can get the music I like, not try to like the music I can get in a preferred format.

..For us musicians it is even worse: We have to play as well as we can, regardless of the format it will be published on!

 

[garylkoh]

..For us musicians it is even worse: We have to play as well as we can, regardless of the format it will be published on!

Yes, I agree. You musicians have the hardest job. You play not knowing what you will eventually sound like on the recording. I've been at a recording console on a pair of headphones, and the recording engineer was switching between two mikes and trying to decide on the mike to use for the take. Both were excellent, but they sounded absolutely different.

As a musician, the sound you hear is so different from the sound we hear. Sitting at a piano, and sitting in the audience listening to the piano (even a couple of feet away) you could be listening to two completely different pianos.

 

[microstrip]

You are missing the point. I'm not looking for perfect SOUND. No doubt a stellar SACD recording is better than my 44/16 file. I'm looking for perfect MUSIC, and if I find it, I do indeed forget aout the rest. The chances of finding it on high rez are at about 3 orders of magnutide lower than on 44/16. At the same time 44/16 on good hardware sounds like 90% of the best high rez to me. Hence I lost interest in high rez. I'm still a bit of a sucker for MCH Blu Ray, and try to scoop op whatever good concert video comes along.....

No, the point is that perfect SOUND makes your perfect MUSIC more enjoyable. BTW, I agree with you that the offer of music on high rez still is too low - I also do not listen regularly to it, as I currently have no working music server, although I have carried a few experiments with JRivers. But audio is also an hobby for me and many others, it why we debate it!

 

[catastrofe]

We're there except for the realistic pricepoint bit. To squeeze performance out of 44/16 to the point that resolution becomes (almost) moot, you still need to spend an inordinate amount of money on hardware. This will hopefully go away (at which point my MSB DAC will be worth 10% of what I paid for it ....ouch...)

Yeah, but you got a heck of a deal on the MSB DAC!

 

[LenWhite]

While I absolutely agree the recording and mastering process is key (you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear), but IMO high resolution does make music more enjoyable. I'll always opt for the SACD version if viable, but of course I continue to buy 16/44.1 if there's a great album I would like to have and it's only available as RBCD. High resolution music sounds more full bodied and open compared to the vast majority of RBCD's, especially from great labels such as Analogue Productions and Mobile Fidelity who acquire the masters and take great care in reproduction to provide as much dynamic range as possible.

 

[tiff_needle]

Yeah, but you got a heck of a deal on the MSB DAC!

When that happens let me know !