Sanders Sound Systems - electrostatic

[DonH50]

Were y'all here in '97? We got about 57"... Do NOT expect anything like that this year! I hope we get snow this week, as then we usually get a break for a couple of weeks. End of October is usually cold.

 

[mep]

Last year's weather was awesome for RMAF.

 

[DonH50]

We tend to get a little blip of snow/cold, then a nice spell before the next batch. Hopefully that will be the case this year as well! Denver is quite a bit lower than my house.

 

[MrAcoustat]

Hi can anyone tell me how to remove attachments from deleted posts - 194 - 202 - Thank You

 

[merrillaudio]

Just wanted to add my 2cents. I purchased Rogers ESL 10C. They are indeed wonderful and not as head in a vice as many had led me to believe. I always sit in the sweet spot to listen to music so this was not an issue.
First the sound is amazing, as with all ESL. The bass integration with the active crossover and 2 stereo or 4 monoblocks as in my case is it allows for a lot of power to be put out but it is more expensive. Of course I use it with my own Merrill Audio VERITAS Monoblocks. The precision, delicacy, details, power are all there.

I am very impressed with the engineering from the packing, to the assembly. Roger has done a great amount of detailed thought behind the product and the packing. Since I am a manufacuterer and in some ways competing with Roger, I be more tuned to the details. Roger has not cut corners or tried to get away with cheaper product but it is also not over engineered. A very good example, the woofer enclosure is packed with steel corners to protect against shipping problems. This is more expensive, not just to manufacturer but also to track, pack and keep inventory of. The Woofer has 1 rounded edge, there is not steel corner in the packing here - not over engineered. If not for this steel corner guard, I am sure there will be a lot more problems, larger shipping cases to an already large box and more dissatisfied customers.

The assembly is also very easy.

Further more Roger, and Angela are so, so, so pleasant to deal with. I had a lot of skeptisim, added to this was someone else who was having problems with the set up (their room was not good). Roger provided detailed explanations, charts, suggestions and all within a day, even on a Sunday for one of them. He really does not hide anything. I have purchased his cookbook which also provides a lot of good detail - this sells on Amazon for $2k for some reason. For those worried about not having a wide smeared image for more then 1 or 2 listeners, there is a splitter described in the cookbook to get you to the wide dispersion for the rest of the room. The cook book provide a great deal of insight into ESL, placement, how ESL's work, amp requirements and so on, well worth the $34. It also tells you how to build your own ESL with all the finer points so you get it correct the first time.

Life time warranty - unbeatable. Plus the look good.

 

[Angela]

thanks for the kind words, Merrill! We are pleased that you are enjoying yourself.

That is so funny about Amazon's price on Roger's book! Audio Express is the publisher and they quit selling on Amazon quite a long time ago because of expense. They sell it directly at their website


I Hope that everyone had a good holiday and are staying warm. It is 10 below here tonight. brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[Gregadd]

Think outside the box and beoynd the cone.

 

[MrAcoustat]

Think outside the box and beoynd the cone.

Yes think BIG think panels.

 

[DonH50]

Shoot, have this week off (forced vacation) and didn't even think about it being a great opportunity to run up to the factory...

 

[Angela]

Don, you are welcome anytime, of course. Everyone has the week off, but us, so if you'd like to come on up, just give us a call to let us know. If not this week, anytime!

cheers,
Angela

and Greg, well said

 

[catastrofe]

I've been a happy Sanders 10C owner for some time now. I run mine with dual Magtechs, one per side. The system sounds phenomenal to me.

Lately I've been wondering about passive crossovers instead of the Behringer. Has anyone tried this? Something about digitizing my analog front end just seems weird. . .

 

[MrAcoustat]

I've been a happy Sanders 10C owner for some time now. I run mine with dual Magtechs, one per side. The system sounds phenomenal to me.

Lately I've been wondering about passive crossovers instead of the Behringer. Has anyone tried this? Something about digitizing my analog front end just seems weird. . .

Hi catastrofe, i think the best person to answer your question would be the man you have trusted up to now for that phenominal sound you already have Mr. Roger Sanders, up to now you are very happy with his gear and i think he must have a pretty good idea of how this wouldl work BUT of course NOTHING beats a good session with the gear in your room. good luck MrAcoustat.

PS: And with panels, you realy don't need luck.

 

[DonH50]

I misdoubt you can achieve as good crossover performance using passive... You could go to a DEQx or similar, perhaps, or check out Bryston (active analog) or Marchand (active or passive analog) units.

 

[opus111]

Lately I've been wondering about passive crossovers instead of the Behringer. Has anyone tried this? Something about digitizing my analog front end just seems weird. . .

Behringer here being their digital XO? Its by most accounts quite a long way from being transparent - S-D ADCs and DACs are not going to win prizes for signal fidelity. Its not the digitization, its the way that its done.

In my estimation, the best performing crossover sonically is passive, but line-level. Signal level chokes don't have the linearity and loss issues that speaker level ones do, and NP0/C0G capacitors are about the most perfect money can buy but aren't available much above 100nF.

 

[audioarcher]

I've been a happy Sanders 10C owner for some time now. I run mine with dual Magtechs, one per side. The system sounds phenomenal to me.

Lately I've been wondering about passive crossovers instead of the Behringer. Has anyone tried this? Something about digitizing my analog front end just seems weird. . .

I understand your reluctance to converting your analog source to digital and back. You could pick up a used pair of Innersounds. They can usually be had for a reasonable price. Then just use the crossover amp from them. If you have the space you could setup another system with the Innersounds and the Behringer in another room.

You could also try another analog active x-over like suggested above. I'm not sure how well that would work. It would be nice if you could try before you buy it. Reno Hifi might let you do that with a Pass unit.

Unless you have some talent building passive x-overs or know someone that does I would not go that route.

 

[A.wayne]

I misdoubt you can achieve as good crossover performance using passive... You could go to a DEQx or similar, perhaps, or check out Bryston (active analog) or Marchand (active or passive analog) units.

Why would you think so Don ..? Second the Marchand recommendation ...

 

[audioarcher]

In my estimation, the best performing crossover sonically is passive, but line-level. Signal level chokes don't have the linearity and loss issues that speaker level ones do, and NP0/C0G capacitors are about the most perfect money can buy but aren't available much above 100nF.

In the case of the Sanders Sound 10c I think they x-over around 150 hz. My Innersound Kaya's are an earlier design and are crossed at 350 hz forth order. At those frequencies is it possible to make a line level x-over with those parts? How hard is it to make a forth order one? I assume one would need two outputs from their preamp to pull off a 2way line level x-over?

 

[jap]

In the case of the Sanders Sound 10c I think they x-over around 150 hz. My Innersound Kaya's are an earlier design and are crossed at 350 hz forth order. At those frequencies is it possible to make a line level x-over with those parts? How hard is it to make a forth order one? I assume one would need two outputs from their preamp to pull off a 2way line level x-over?

The 10C x-over is at 172hz with a 48 db/octave slope.

I think Roger will still make the 10B with the analog x-over on special order.

IMO, the cheap Behringer x-over with 24/96 resolution and an SMPS PSU is the weak link on this excellent speaker.

 

[opus111]

In the case of the Sanders Sound 10c I think they x-over around 150 hz. My Innersound Kaya's are an earlier design and are crossed at 350 hz forth order. At those frequencies is it possible to make a line level x-over with those parts? How hard is it to make a forth order one? I assume one would need two outputs from their preamp to pull off a 2way line level x-over?

150Hz corner freq is a bit tricky owing to the relatively high value inductors that would be called for (say of the order of 100s of mH). Certainly its doable though I am not sure that I'd go passive XO myself for that low turnover frequency, but I would for something in the kHz range. For XO freqs in the few 100s of Hz region, the performance balance might just switch back in favour of active again given the challenges of the high value inductors. The much lower working bandwidth means that the required dynamic range in active is easier to maintain.

@jap - I don't see the 24/96 of Behringer as any kind of limitation on SQ, the SMPSU though almost certainly is

 

[JonFo]

If looking to upgrade the X-over, I second Don's recommendation of a DEQX unit, and will add a recommendation for the unit I run on my MartinLogan Monoliths, the DBX Driverack 4800.



It is a 24/96 based unit, and it is extremely transparent. The plus vs any analog active is that one can fine-tune intra-speaker delays, phase, use high-order crossover slopes, etc. all with great ease of programming (using the HiQnet System architect software). I've even used their new iPad app to enable tablet-based control of Subwoofer level and turn on / off the Autowarmth (loudness comp) or the inimitable DBX 120 Subharmonic Synthesizer (to restore missing bass form 60's and 70's albums).
This 4800 is bulletproof, mine is on 24/7 for years on end, no problems.

I've used the Behringer and DriveRack 260's prior, and the Behringer is serviceable, but not even close sonically to the DBX units. This is a case of getting what you pay for.

some more info and links on my site