Rythm and Pace!

audioguy

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Audiophiles like to use the above term to describe some of the sonic attributes of their music system. Based upon the attached video (and my own personal experience), rhythm and pace is much more a function of the music and the artist than it is of the equipment/room.

If the attached video doesn't get you to tap your toes, move your head, or cause any other body part movement, then my recommendation is to toss ALL of your equipment out the window and take up a new hobby.

 

rblnr

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Nice vid.

I'm a PRAT guy (thx to growing up in Chicago blues clubs), and yeah, systems that don't get my blood pumping and my body moving are failures. I think some speakers homogenize timing, and it's a killer. It's the micro-inconsistencies (read: human) in time that contribute to a live feel and keep us on the edge. Speakers/systems that slur this for one reason or another are dead to me.
 

JackD201

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I was moving my head and tappin' my fingers. Glad I don't have to throw my laptop out and get a new one.
 

Andre Marc

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Audiophiles like to use the above term to describe some of the sonic attributes of their music system. Based upon the attached video (and my own personal experience), rhythm and pace is much more a function of the music and the artist than it is of the equipment/room.

If the attached video doesn't get you to tap your toes, move your head, or cause any other body part movement, then my recommendation is to toss ALL of your equipment out the window and take up a new hobby.


I think PRAT is a silly notion invented by British audio writers. I think it is total nonsense when it is applied to a stereo.
 

FrantzM

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MylesBAstor

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Nice vid.

I'm a PRAT guy (thx to growing up in Chicago blues clubs), and yeah, systems that don't get my blood pumping and my body moving are failures. I think some speakers homogenize timing, and it's a killer. It's the micro-inconsistencies (read: human) in time that contribute to a live feel and keep us on the edge. Speakers/systems that slur this for one reason or another are dead to me.

+1

That why we love estats and planars :) They pick up on this stuff, instantly; much more than dynamic drivers (that have other strengths). Go listen to a harpsichord or guitar for instance, played on an estat. It's a different experience. And as it's been mentioned before, PRAT is essentially referring to microdynamics or dynamic accents.

How many times have you (I know I have) heard a system or component that leaves you yawning? Bored? Looking for anything else to do rather than concentrate on the music? For instance, listen to the ZYX cartridge. Before the Atlas, this cartridge had an uncanny ability to engage the listener in the musical experience.
 

garylkoh

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I'm a PRAT guy (thx to growing up in Chicago blues clubs), and yeah, systems that don't get my blood pumping and my body moving are failures. I think some speakers homogenize timing, and it's a killer. It's the micro-inconsistencies (read: human) in time that contribute to a live feel and keep us on the edge. Speakers/systems that slur this for one reason or another are dead to me.

I think PRAT is a silly notion invented by British audio writers. I think it is total nonsense when it is applied to a stereo.

How many times have you (I know I have) heard a system or component that leaves you yawning? Bored? Looking for anything else to do rather than concentrate on the music? For instance, listen to the ZYX cartridge. Before the Atlas, this cartridge had an uncanny ability to engage the listener in the musical experience.

I'm a PRAT guy too and believe that the transducers (the cartridge and the speaker) make the biggest difference - but I think that the moderators had better close this thread because the two camps will never meet.
 

FrantzM

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+1

That why we love estats and planars :) They pick up on this stuff, instantly; much more than dynamic drivers (that have other strengths). Go listen to a harpsichord or guitar for instance, played on an estat. It's a different experience. And as it's been mentioned before, PRAT is essentially referring to microdynamics or dynamic accents.

How many times have you (I know I have) heard a system or component that leaves you yawning? Bored? Looking for anything else to do rather than concentrate on the music? For instance, listen to the ZYX cartridge. Before the Atlas, this cartridge had an uncanny ability to engage the listener in the musical experience.

Myles


Come on Man! it is the Music ... I get my head bobbing from a Bose Wave Radio ... The other day I heard Led Zepp' Kashmir on the speakers of my smatphone and was having a blast ... Come on Man! Would have been the same for you listening to something you like, even over the phone. .. yes some components leave us unmoved but this is not because of Prat ...
 

JackD201

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I think I get what guys mean by PRAT in a system. Sort of like a power to weight ratio thing that allows quick starts and stops when it's played that way. I am a self confessed high efficiency mid-driver fiend after all and a ribbon lover at that. I'm just at odds with the wording which to me is a weird grab from the physiology lexicon. It's a language thing. Which brings me to a previous phrase....when it's played that way. I won't name names but there is a line of equipment that's made it niche with its focus on PRAT and honestly I could never cotton to the lack of flow. When Chopin sounds like Souza there's something wrong! Yes I exaggerate but you know what I mean guys right? ;)
 

cjfrbw

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prat:

"n. English term, primarily used in United Kingdom. The literal meaning is "bottom" or "rump"; aka backside, buttocks, sacrum, tail end. This lends itself to the slang meaning of "ass," or "clueless person of arrogant stupidity." It is not always directly translatable to American slang."

I would agree that the term requires so much contextual explanation and has so many ways of interpretation that it is an "abomination" term that winds up whatever a particular individual wants it to be.

I think as Myles states it intends to grade the system's ability to render microdynamics. Maybe it's the Brits making fun of the Yanks with a made up terminology.
 
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Andre Marc

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Myles


Come on Man! it is the Music ... I get my head bobbing from a Bose Wave Radio ... The other day I heard Led Zepp' Kashmir on the speakers of my smatphone and was having a blast ... Come on Man! Would have been the same for you listening to something you like, even over the phone. .. yes some components leave us unmoved but this is not because of Prat ...

It's da music...period.
 

MylesBAstor

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http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory21.htm

In lesson 4, we discussed the way in which beats can vary in strength and how, through a suitable choice of time signature, the composer can make clear the rhythmic structure, formed by a particular pattern of strong, medium and weak beats. On many musical instruments there are limits to the strength of a beat, if all one can do is to blow, bang or scrape more or less enthusiastically. Wind-instruments blown hard play sharp and the tone is coarsened. The same instruments blown too gently will tend to play flat or not at all. However, a performance in which all the notes are equally loud or soft is immeasurably duller than one where there is dynamic variety.
The dynamic detail can be in the note's strength when it starts, whether or not it is preceded or followed by a silence, the note's length and the mean strength of the note while it sounds. All these can be determined with suitable notation and we will look at each of these in turn.
Music, like written prose, tends to be made up of short sequences we call phrases. Consider Swift's 'A satirical Elegy on the Death of a late Famous General' (1772) - actually, on the death of Marlborough, the victor at Blenheim - in which each line is a single phrase.
But what of what, his friends may say,
He had those honours in his day,
True to his profit and his pride,
He made them weep before he dy'd.
Each line expresses a single idea which is the fundamental characteristic of a phrase. Of course, the choice of phrase length is not 'set in stone'. One might 'feel' that a more natural phrase length here is the pairing of lines (1 with 2, 3 with 4).
This freedom to feel poetry in various different ways occurs also in music and phrasing is a matter best left to the performer to communicate to the listener as he (or she) thinks best. We will return to this point when discussing the setting of words to music where the phrasing of the words tends to find its mirror in the shaping of the musical line.
The desire of editors and composers to make their intentions clear down to the very last detail includes the use of large sweeping 'slur-like' lines called 'phrase marks'. Slurs, which tend to embrace a smaller number of notes, help to shape the musical line even within broader phrasing marks and performers must be able to distinguish between them. On wind instruments, all the notes under the slur except for the first, are untongued, the breath flowing continuously while the fingers move. On stringed instruments, the equivalent effect is achieved by using a single sweep of the bow for each slur or phrase. On keyboard instruments the notes are played legato (smoothly) and with a light touch.
The slur removes the attack from the start of each note under it except for the first so providing a contrast in strength, a dynamic variety, between the first and the later notes. If slurring is to be effective, or indeed a distinction made between different phrases, the performer must avoid playing unslurred notes too smoothly. Evidence from the eighteenth century suggests that music then was played in a more detached manner than we associate, say, with the repertoire of the late-Romantic.
Daniel Gottlob Türk writing in his Clavierschule (1789) says that:
"...when notes are to be played in the usual manner, that is to say, neither staccato nor legato, the finger should be raised from the key a little earlier than the value of the note requires."
Reference:
Clavierschule, Daniel Gottlob Türk (1789) - translation of extracts, from German to French, by Jean-Pierre Coulon
By the nineteenth century Muzio Clementi (1801) offers slightly different advice, recommending a legato style.
"The best general rule is to keep down the keys of the instrument, the full length of every note."
Clementi's advice echoes the earlier concerns of François Couperin and J. S. Bach, for as Skip Sempé writes:
"Couperin wrote the Préludes of L'Art de Toucher le Clavecin as pieces to form the hand into making a certain very special sound - a sound he considered important from the very first contact with a harpsichord. Bach made the same point in his Inventions, where he refers to the central idea of cantabile art, that very quality which makes keyboard instruments so illusionistic: the magic fusion of a lyrical effect and its accompaniment achieved by the diversity of sound created by the art of touch."
Reference:
François Couperin: L'Art de toucher le clavecin
The advantages of a detached manner when playing in a large acoustically resonant building become clear. When the notes 'ring on' around the room, the harmonies overlap instead of flowing neatly one into the other. Slurring, in such surroundings, would obsure the line, and so the performer has to be able to adjust the performance to the demands made by the surroundings by ignoring slur and phrase marks that may, in this situation, have become redundant.

Slurs are distinguishable from ties, which we met in lesson 2, because ties only link together notes of identical pitch (e.g. B to B) while slurs never link together notes of identical pitch.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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In a microdialect (making up some words of my own :)) fat with invented and misappropriated words disguised as data and oozing pretense, PRaT is probably my least favorite. It's an odd choice for me, because PRaT is a sort of modernist, solid state Audiophile voodo. But I dislike it nonetheless, not just because it's pseudo science; worse, it is pseudo-art. It's just one of a few Audiophile terms that attempt to give playback systems and the hobbyists who synergize them some place on stage or in the studio. I guess those who can't do, teach, and those who can't teach read English textbooks and imagine that Shakespeare would be diminished if they hadn't so wisely chosen that particular Pelican edition with that paper and cover. The truth, of course, is that Shakespeare is brilliant on a Nook and James Brown and The Famous Flames are relentlessly funky on a transistor radio. They're right there, on the one, if you know what that means. James would say "I gotcher PRaT right here. Huh!" The Flames would kick your lillywhite booty with more pace, rhythm and timing that you can count, much less change with an amp upgrade.

Tim
 

cjfrbw

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In a microdialect (making up some words of my own :)) fat with invented and misappropriated words disguised as data and oozing pretense, PRaT is probably my least favorite. It's an odd choice for me, because PRaT is a sort of modernist, solid state Audiophile voodo. But I dislike it nonetheless, not just because it's pseudo science; worse, it is pseudo-art. It's just one of a few Audiophile terms that attempt to give playback systems and the hobbyists who synergize them some place on stage or in the studio. I guess those who can't do, teach, and those who can't teach read English textbooks and imagine that Shakespeare would be diminished if they hadn't so wisely chosen that particular Pelican edition with that paper and cover. The truth, of course, is that Shakespeare is brilliant on a Nook and James Brown and The Famous Flames are relentlessly funky on a transistor radio. They're right there, on the one, if you know what that means. James would say "I gotcher PRaT right here. Huh!" The Flames would kick your lillywhite booty with more pace, rhythm and timing that you can count, much less change with an amp upgrade.

Tim

I think I agree with something in there, but I don't know what. Your post needs more PRAT.
 

FrantzM

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I think I agree with something in there, but I don't know what. Your post needs more PRAT.

:D

Can I borrow this line?
 

garylkoh

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In the psychology of music, it is known that the form of the gesture changes the (perceived or unperceived) note duration playing a marimba - an instrument that is struck and hence note duration is fixed. There have been numerous studies by non-audiophiles:

http://pom.sagepub.com/content/37/2/137.short

There was a couple of other studies that showed that the same expressiveness can be recorded and then played back without the visual content, and the expressiveness is still perceived by both trained and untrained audience. You could argue that this is the music, and not the system. I could argue that some systems are unable to convey this immeasurable difference in the music.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/xhp/35/6/1791/

These studies were predicated by the original by Shultz and Lipscomb:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17718367

I linked the full article somewhere on this forum...... unfortunately I can't find it now.

IMHO, the Bose Wave Radio has great PRaT by the way......
 

microstrip

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The PRAT word is useful if you apply it properly and want to dialogue with those who also understand it, completely useless if you do not know what it means, do not care about it or just post about it to say it is a silly word.

Yes, I think I understand what people mean about it. The term was defined in an historical context to define a precise type of sound in opposition to an existing culture, and today still keeps most of its original meaning, although we do not accept the colorations that were associated to the systems that "had PRAT"anymore.

Just by curiosity I googled the word PRAT in whatbestforum.com. I found some tens of hits, and after I discarded those which were just debating the use of the word, I could understand what most people wanted to say when they used it. BTW, for me a system needs to have PRAT to play Bernstein "West Side Story" in a way I can enjoy it. Jack, does this recording have PRAT in your system? ;)
 

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