Rockport Orions with a subwoofer?

[Cincy2]

I have a pair of Rockport Orion's on order and should receive them in the fall. I also have a pair of marvelous B&W DB1 subwoofers in my current set up which includes B&W 802D2 speakers. Does anyone have Orion's and use them with subwoofers? If so, what cross over frequency for the subs do you use?

Thanks
Eric

 

[SuperDave]

Hi Cincy,
I've listened to the Orions briefly and believe in a smaller room no subs would be needed and having moved from B&W to Rockport, the latter has much better bass to my ears. I have 2 giant JL subs and don't use them for stereo listening with my Aviors, preferred the bass without. I have heard the Rel 6 pack integrated and would prefer that in a larger room, lot of air minimal effort.

 

[LL21]

I have a pair of Rockport Orion's on order and should receive them in the fall. I also have a pair of marvelous B&W DB1 subwoofers in my current set up which includes B&W 802D2 speakers. Does anyone have Orion's and use them with subwoofers? If so, what cross over frequency for the subs do you use?

Thanks
Eric

Congrats...looking at your signature, that is one heckuva system! Enjoy! Personally, given all out extreme your system is, I think you should consider subs...not because you 'need them...but because (in keeping with the rest of your system which is well beyond what you 'need' to hear great music) done right great subs have the potential to deliver a super-deep, real sense of venue, and an effortless foundational element to music that generally lives below 40hz in my experience.

For example, listening to big Genesis 1s, big Focals, big Wilsons, as well as the mighty Arrakis, I have always appreciated hearing a few of these speakers with powerful, effortless and low-distortion bass...and where I could not hear the addition of subs, I did actually think that (for that extra edge-of-the-universe performance) it would be good to try them.

In your case, I have no doubt the Orions are exceptionally balanced, full and powerful...and full-range. At the same time, I think if you speak with Rockport (I have), they are supportive of the idea of bringing exceptional subs well dialed-in into the equation.

Not everyone feels this way, but having even a single DD18+ sub that pretty only operates below 38hz or so, I would not ever have the system without it...and even on jazz ensembles, it helps create a sense of the club. Such that you if you mute the sub, you 'snap' out of the reality of the club and into a 2 dimensional club that only extends BACKWARDS behind the speakers and a bit out front and beyond...and opposed to the entire room. Its quite jarring to compare in the middle of something Bill Evans, etc...and really great to know you've got it at the touch of a button.

One man's experience.

 

[Cincy2]

Congrats...looking at your signature, that is one heckuva system! Enjoy! Personally, given all out extreme your system is, I think you should consider subs...not because you 'need them...but because (in keeping with the rest of your system which is well beyond what you 'need' to hear great music) done right great subs have the potential to deliver a super-deep, real sense of venue, and an effortless foundational element to music that generally lives below 40hz in my experience.

For example, listening to big Genesis 1s, big Focals, big Wilsons, as well as the mighty Arrakis, I have always appreciated hearing a few of these speakers with powerful, effortless and low-distortion bass...and where I could not hear the addition of subs, I did actually think that (for that extra edge-of-the-universe performance) it would be good to try them.

In your case, I have no doubt the Orions are exceptionally balanced, full and powerful...and full-range. At the same time, I think if you speak with Rockport (I have), they are supportive of the idea of bringing exceptional subs well dialed-in into the equation.

Not everyone feels this way, but having even a single DD18+ sub that pretty only operates below 38hz or so, I would not ever have the system without it...and even on jazz ensembles, it helps create a sense of the club. Such that you if you mute the sub, you 'snap' out of the reality of the club and into a 2 dimensional club that only extends BACKWARDS behind the speakers and a bit out front and beyond...and opposed to the entire room. Its quite jarring to compare in the middle of something Bill Evans, etc...and really great to know you've got it at the touch of a button.

One man's experience.

Thanks. I discovered what a good set of subs can do when I had Magico M3 speakers. They don't compete with the full range speaker, they complement it if set up properly. The imaging improved. Percussion instruments took on a depth and clarity that was very satisfying. I had to be convinced to add the subs, but once I heard them it was game over.

 

[LL21]

Great insights Cincy2 and agree based on my own limited experience.

 

[JiminGa]

Hello all. This is my first post here. I have been in this hobby since the 70’s and have been reading WBF for a couple of years. This post finally motivated me to post. These are my opinions. Please take no offense. On this particular subject I have something to add. Ultimately it will come down to what you value most. Not what I think. I also have ordered the Orions and will be trading in the Cygnus as well as a pair of Rel no 25’s. To my knowledge the only place to listen to Orion in North America is in Omaha which I did for 9 hours in the room which previously housed the Wilson XVX. Let me make three points on the subject of Orion and subwoofers. I’ve been speaking to John, Josh and Andy for years about all things audio. While they might be supportive none of them given the choice would personally utilize subs with Orion. Neither Todd or Gale at The Sound Environment in Omaha would recommend it either because in their view you will lose more than you gain. My own personal experience with Cygnus is that even after the best guys in the setup business installing them I am happier with them gone. I am very familiar with room acoustic arguments and the theory supporting multiple subs. Depending upon what you are seeking they may or may not make sense. The only way to know is to listen with and without in your own space because it’s only here where the room/speaker system will let you know what’s best for YOU. You’ll get more heft and punch and the soundstage cues will improve. You may straighten out some room modes. You will also subtly change things in other ways as well.

 

[SuperDave]

 

[JiminGa]

View attachment 109486

Awesome. Is that at 3MA?

 

[SuperDave]

Yes sir, a good friends equipment.

 

[JiminGa]

Yes sir, a good friends equipment.

Of course. My understanding is that they are no longer a dealer so I didn’t mention them. Your friend must be very happy!

 

[sujay]

Hello all. This is my first post here. I have been in this hobby since the 70’s and have been reading WBF for a couple of years. This post finally motivated me to post. These are my opinions. Please take no offense. On this particular subject I have something to add. Ultimately it will come down to what you value most. Not what I think. I also have ordered the Orions and will be trading in the Cygnus as well as a pair of Rel no 25’s. To my knowledge the only place to listen to Orion in North America is in Omaha which I did for 9 hours in the room which previously housed the Wilson XVX. Let me make three points on the subject of Orion and subwoofers. I’ve been speaking to John, Josh and Andy for years about all things audio. While they might be supportive none of them given the choice would personally utilize subs with Orion. Neither Todd or Gale at The Sound Environment in Omaha would recommend it either because in their view you will lose more than you gain. My own personal experience with Cygnus is that even after the best guys in the setup business installing them I am happier with them gone. I am very familiar with room acoustic arguments and the theory supporting multiple subs. Depending upon what you are seeking they may or may not make sense. The only way to know is to listen with and without in your own space because it’s only here where the room/speaker system will let you know what’s best for YOU. You’ll get more heft and punch and the soundstage cues will improve. You may straighten out some room modes. You will also subtly change things in other ways as well.

my experience, of late, mirrors yours ie without subs. For years, I have had a pair of REL G1s with my Aviors and I have loved it. Strangely though, after I sold my G1 pair, I am enjoying the Aviors more. I just can’t fathom why. I also had a pair of Townshend podiums under my Aviors, which I removed. I am just enjoying my speakers even more now…… I just can explain this…..

best

sujay

 

[John T]

Hello all. This is my first post here. I have been in this hobby since the 70’s and have been reading WBF for a couple of years. This post finally motivated me to post. These are my opinions. Please take no offense. On this particular subject I have something to add. Ultimately it will come down to what you value most. Not what I think. I also have ordered the Orions and will be trading in the Cygnus as well as a pair of Rel no 25’s. To my knowledge the only place to listen to Orion in North America is in Omaha which I did for 9 hours in the room which previously housed the Wilson XVX. Let me make three points on the subject of Orion and subwoofers. I’ve been speaking to John, Josh and Andy for years about all things audio. While they might be supportive none of them given the choice would personally utilize subs with Orion. Neither Todd or Gale at The Sound Environment in Omaha would recommend it either because in their view you will lose more than you gain. My own personal experience with Cygnus is that even after the best guys in the setup business installing them I am happier with them gone. I am very familiar with room acoustic arguments and the theory supporting multiple subs. Depending upon what you are seeking they may or may not make sense. The only way to know is to listen with and without in your own space because it’s only here where the room/speaker system will let you know what’s best for YOU. You’ll get more heft and punch and the soundstage cues will improve. You may straighten out some room modes. You will also subtly change things in other ways as well.

I've spoken with Josh a few times about Lyra's. I have also spoken with the guys in Omaha. John actually gave me a couple of good tips in regards to subwoofers. They are quite knowledgeable. Rockport recommends initial set up without subs. However, not everyone has a 12X12 X12 room. My room is 30' X 26' X 26'H 9/12 pitch, with an open loft. (Log Home). Lots of cubic feet. I can assure you and I have never heard the Lyra's, a room this size can only benefit with the addition of Subwoofers. When I finally did the Carbon Special 6 pack array it transformed the system/room. The Joseph Audio 20/20's are no slouch when it comes to bass. (or anything else for that matter) Powering down all the subs will give you a pretty accurate observation as to what you have or not...

 

[JiminGa]

I had Gale and Todd from Omaha fly here to Atlanta to install dual Rel 25s for my then Rockport Cygnus set up. They spent 2 days doing it. I loved it for 5 years. The subs are gone now and in important ways the system is better. I have used subwoofers in various setups for 20+ years. With and without analog crossover. With and without high pass filter. I got incredibly flat measured response to 20hz. Once you go all out on component isolation you willl become very sensitive to the nuances of everything which in my opinion is obscured by the use of subwoofers. What you like however will guide your choices and so no “assurances” can be given on the subject if you are using full range speakers. 2years ago I spent a good 30 minutes talking to Josh about this very subject. We went into everything including the advantages of not having to co locate the the sub bass and the mid band so that you could optimize each location. At that time I was arguing for the use of subs. He was unequivocal. Don’t do it. It mirrored a conversation I had with Andy 5 years prior. I finally listened. John will definitely help guide you as his customer if he hears that you want to employ subs. He’s a great guy. When I told the guys in Omaha they gave me a high five. There is no actual correct answer here. Everyone is free to pursue what they love but there is also no free lunch. You get this but you lose that. Which do you like better?

 

[John T]

I had Gale and Todd from Omaha fly here to Atlanta to install dual Rel 25s for my then Rockport Cygnus set up. They spent 2 days doing it. I loved it for 5 years. The subs are gone now and in important ways the system is better. I have used subwoofers in various setups for 20+ years. With and without analog crossover. With and without high pass filter. I got incredibly flat measured response to 20hz. Once you go all out on component isolation you willl become very sensitive to the nuances of everything which in my opinion is obscured by the use of subwoofers. What you like however will guide your choices and so no “assurances” can be given on the subject if you are using full range speakers. 2years ago I spent a good 30 minutes talking to Josh about this very subject. We went into everything including the advantages of not having to co locate the the sub bass and the mid band so that you could optimize each location. At that time I was arguing for the use of subs. He was unequivocal. Don’t do it. It mirrored a conversation I had with Andy 5 years prior. I finally listened. John will definitely help guide you as his customer if he hears that you want to employ subs. He’s a great guy. When I told the guys in Omaha they gave me a high five. There is no actual correct answer here. Everyone is free to pursue what they love but there is also no free lunch. You get this but you lose that. Which do you like better?

So I take it room size is insignificant? Your correct there is no correct answer here. When I spoke with Josh he indicated (as mentioned) initial set up without subs. Then experiment from there. From what I gathered from the guys in Omaha subs are often used in many applications...(With Rockports)

 

[LL21]

Very interesting and I think there are 2 very very very big factors at play here: room size and personal priorities on all-out bass.

- First, our room not dissimilar to John's is 18' x 43' x 11' so there is sheer volume
- Secondly, and I would argue even more importantly, there is personal taste (given that I have had a sub since 1994 and am actually thinking of going further into big subs (ie, dual-opposing 24" with massive amplification for control...and completely inactive above 38hz or even slightly lower in frequency)

While since 2010 or so, I have really started to hone in on detail, resolve and ultimate decay, it is still not my priority in the ranking of sound. Bass is actually much higher...that sense of power even at whisper soft levels, that sense of room-lock and foundation. That is simply something that really really bothers me when I do not have it, even if when I do have it, it is not perfect.

I have heard the mighty Arrakis...it is my favorite speaker of all time. And I would still go back to Andy and Josh to ask them to design a custom dual-set of subs if I ever had a cost-no-object goal. In the same way that Arnie of Arrakis/CHM10 series fame has gone with the mighty REL 6-pack (below 28hz I believe?...and again in a big room with tall ceilings)...I crave that ultimate foundation element even on 'non-essential recordings' where all its doing is giving a sense of venue (rather than more music per se). Then add electronic music, movie soundtracks (not even movies, just the soundtrack to something like Sherlock Holmes, or Dark Knight, or Tall Ships - Enya at 30hz, etc, etc...and it really makes the experience for me.

For the original person who asked about Rockport & subs, you really need to think about what you want...because both solutions (with or without subs) actually work incredibly well because the Rockports are very powerful in bass and exceptionally beautifully made and designed for full-range sound.

 

[John T]

I always veered to the side of caution in regards to subwoofers. Room acoustics play a major role here 10 X10 X 10 = 1000 Cubic feet, 30 X 26 X 26 taking the 9/12 pitch into the mix along with the open loft and open concept = 20,280 cubic feet. I guess it boils down to personal taste but sheer volume plays a major role.
You'll get a kick out of this Lloyd. A friend of a friend has the Arrakis and added a 6 pack array of the 32's....He uses 4 Hyperions for the Arrakis...

 

[cmarin]

I had Gale and Todd from Omaha fly here to Atlanta to install dual Rel 25s for my then Rockport Cygnus set up. They spent 2 days doing it. I loved it for 5 years. The subs are gone now and in important ways the system is better. I have used subwoofers in various setups for 20+ years. With and without analog crossover. With and without high pass filter. I got incredibly flat measured response to 20hz. Once you go all out on component isolation you willl become very sensitive to the nuances of everything which in my opinion is obscured by the use of subwoofers. What you like however will guide your choices and so no “assurances” can be given on the subject if you are using full range speakers. 2years ago I spent a good 30 minutes talking to Josh about this very subject. We went into everything including the advantages of not having to co locate the the sub bass and the mid band so that you could optimize each location. At that time I was arguing for the use of subs. He was unequivocal. Don’t do it. It mirrored a conversation I had with Andy 5 years prior. I finally listened. John will definitely help guide you as his customer if he hears that you want to employ subs. He’s a great guy. When I told the guys in Omaha they gave me a high five. There is no actual correct answer here. Everyone is free to pursue what they love but there is also no free lunch. You get this but you lose that. Which do you like better?

Thank you for a very timely topic.

Recently, a friend visited from South America. He was touring locations in the US to help inform his purchase of a new set of speakers.

My system shares several similar components (or soon the be upgraded components) with his system including the totaldac sublime DAC, Taiko Extreme server, and the L10 pre and M10 amplifier from CH Precision.

After listening to a number of his test tracks, he stopped and remarked how beautiful the system sounded in the midrange and upper end, but he felt that it lacked adequate bass below the mid-bass level. And he recommended adding subs.

i thanked him sincerely for his opinion and remarked how recent system improvements, including the additions of the sublime upgrade and the new taiko switch and network card had significantly improved bass in my system, even as it is.

But not being a bass head, I was genuinely pleased with my system’s performance. And explained how I had previously engaged with Stirling Trayle (system setup extraordinaire) on a discussion of subs for the Lyras.

Stirling tried to integrate a previous version of my system with VAC 450 amps with Rel G1s, but he didn’t feel comfortable with the results based on some electronic incompatibilities with the VACs. So the process was abandoned and I ended up selling the G1’s.

Sterling did stress that getting the lowest bass range would require subs that were compatible with the speed and finesse of the Lyras. But also emphasized that it would require a lot of effort and money to extract the lower bass without losing the transformative character of what the Lyras could do on their own - an observation in line with your report.

Nevertheless, my friend recommended to at least look at increasing the M10 amplifier feedback from the original 0% that Sterling set based on my then system configuration, to a starting point of 5% - the value he was using in his system.

But since the feedback change would take time before it settled, we ended the session and he left back to South America the next day without any additional listening.

Several days after the amplifier feedback change began to settle, the bass was remarkably tighter and dynamic, but it was a bit much. I lowered the feedback to 4% and the system improved significantly overall with a tighter, tuneful and dynamic bass than the initial 0% feedback.

At this point, I’m really enjoying the new sound thanks to my friend’s advice.

But I’m more of a “set it and leave it” kind of guy - preferring to leave the trail-error optimizing to experts like Stirling, and spending my time enjoying the music instead.

So for now, I’ll wait for the additional Taiko improvements (router, DC distributor, and battery power supply) to arrive later this summer, before inviting Stirling to come back to reoptimize the positioning and settings of my system - resting assuredly in the knowledge of the recommendations you mentioned from the Rockport and Omaha gents on the purity of the Lyras sans subs - at least for the near future until Stirling finds his way back.

 

[JiminGa]

I was only trying to respond to the OP with my opinion for him. Of course room size matters. It’s possible in a very large room for subs to be a definite positive. I don’t know Cincy 2s room size or at least I didn’t take note of it. Sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent. The Orions woofer/room coupling is very different than Lyra. I’m not saying it’s better just different. It puts out outstanding base very efficiently due to a 13 inch woofer and only 3 drivers. It CRUSHES a 30 x 20 room. Eventually given enough cubic feet of course it will run out of gas. Room size/ coupling absolutely matters for every audio decision you make. The good news is that either way you go you will get great pleasure from well set up Rockports and that’s all that really matters.

 

[John T]

I was only trying to respond to the OP with my opinion for him. Of course room size matters. It’s possible in a very large room for subs to be a definite positive. I don’t know Cincy 2s room size or at least I didn’t take note of it. Sorry if I offended you. That was not my intent. The Orions woofer/room coupling is very different than Lyra. I’m not saying it’s better just different. It puts out outstanding base very efficiently due to a 13 inch woofer and only 3 drivers. It CRUSHES a 30 x 20 room. Eventually given enough cubic feet of course it will run out of gas. Room size/ coupling absolutely matters for every audio decision you make. The good news is that either way you go you will get great pleasure from well set up Rockports and that’s all that really matters.

I wasn't offended at all. Didn't mean to come across authoritative. I should have read more carefully. Been doing this a long time and I still question if I know what the hell I am doing. Sorry if my wording sounded terse....John

 

[LL21]

Thank you for a very timely topic.

Recently, a friend visited from South America. He was touring locations in the US to help inform his purchase of a new set of speakers.

My system shares several similar components (or soon the be upgraded components) with his system including the totaldac sublime DAC, Taiko Extreme server, and the L10 pre and M10 amplifier from CH Precision.

After listening to a number of his test tracks, he stopped and remarked how beautiful the system sounded in the midrange and upper end, but he felt that it lacked adequate bass below the mid-bass level. And he recommended adding subs.

i thanked him sincerely for his opinion and remarked how recent system improvements, including the additions of the sublime upgrade and the new taiko switch and network card had significantly improved bass in my system, even as it is.

But not being a bass head, I was genuinely pleased with my system’s performance. And explained how I had previously engaged with Stirling Trayle (system setup extraordinaire) on a discussion of subs for the Lyras.

Stirling tried to integrate a previous version of my system with VAC 450 amps with Rel G1s, but he didn’t feel comfortable with the results based on some electronic incompatibilities with the VACs. So the process was abandoned and I ended up selling the G1’s.

Sterling did stress that getting the lowest bass range would require subs that were compatible with the speed and finesse of the Lyras. But also emphasized that it would require a lot of effort and money to extract the lower bass without losing the transformative character of what the Lyras could do on their own - an observation in line with your report.

Nevertheless, my friend recommended to at least look at increasing the M10 amplifier feedback from the original 0% that Sterling set based on my then system configuration, to a starting point of 5% - the value he was using in his system.

But since the feedback change would take time before it settled, we ended the session and he left back to South America the next day without any additional listening.

Several days after the amplifier feedback change began to settle, the bass was remarkably tighter and dynamic, but it was a bit much. I lowered the feedback to 4% and the system improved significantly overall with a tighter, tuneful and dynamic bass than the initial 0% feedback.

At this point, I’m really enjoying the new sound thanks to my friend’s advice.

But I’m more of a “set it and leave it” kind of guy - preferring to leave the trail-error optimizing to experts like Stirling, and spending my time enjoying the music instead.

So for now, I’ll wait for the additional Taiko improvements (router, DC distributor, and battery power supply) to arrive later this summer, before inviting Stirling to come back to reoptimize the positioning and settings of my system - resting assuredly in the knowledge of the recommendations you mentioned from the Rockport and Omaha gents on the purity of the Lyras sans subs - at least for the near future until Stirling finds his way back.

Great backdrop to your query...and I think encapsulates well the debate.

1. You have personal preferences.
2. Tying in a sub is tough. My own [potential] solution long-term is partly taking time because the cost is significant and some would say crazy. But its to create the kind of effect I am looking for.
3. It is also tough because it takes a very very good sub that is very very well set up to work in the easiest of times...and in the tougher times you probably ARE going to see some pros and cons (as with all equipment at the extreme level of expectations and standards).

For me, I am prepared to take the pros over the cons because that deep propulsive power is something I really just enjoy particularly at low levels. And it is also why in the current context of the system...I originally decided to go from Wilson X1/Grand SLAMMS (27 years old when I traded them in after 10 years)...and go for and XLF effectively new (as in Wilson refurbished with new 5-year warranty) instead of Lyra, Arrakis, or wait for XVX...because I preferred to keep the money and put some meaningful part of it into a sub solution.

Many would have taken the all-out resolution of these other speakers...but I felt that for me going for something that was the equivalent of 6 x 18" subs (ie a massive 6-pack) was something I really want to take my time, custom-design and try to pair with the XLFs for perhaps a less resolved speaker than the latest and greatest but gave me a sense of scale, effortlessness and graceful power I could not find in any of those.