Regression of Steering Feel in Sports Sedans

[caesar]

I have been test driving some sports sedans recently, and it seems like the steering has gotten worse in the last 10 years or so.It just doesn't give much back to the driver. The steering, though sharp enough, just feels artificial and uncommunicative. As a result the driving feels boring. Bigger Audi sedans don't quite have it. Even BMW 5 series has lost it.

Anyone know what's going on?

 

[RBFC]

Are the cars you're testing using run-flat tires? Run-flats are notorious for reducing road feel, due to the exceptionally stiff sidewalls.

Lee

 

[Steve Williams]

Having you considered driving the similar model to the BMW and Audi in the Benz and if you want to really have fun, try the AMG version

 

[caesar]

I am not sure about the BMW 5, but it might be. But the 335 feels just amazing, however.

 

[caesar]

Having you considered driving the similar model to the BMW and Audi in the Benz and if you want to really have fun, try the AMG version

Thanks. I really like the CLS, but the Benz ride is just too soft. Even my wife said the same thing - and she drives S -- L -- O ---W. I know the AMG's are super fast, and I would absolutely love that, but the overall Mercedes feel is just not my cup of tea. We are actually doing the opposite of what you are saying - looking at the Audi A7 which borrowed its styling from the CLS

 

[RBFC]

My wife has had the 335i, and now has the 535i "M" version. Both use run-flats. More power is useful for straight lines, but is dangerous if the tires/steering won't allow you to use that power correctly in the turns. My truck has a custom suspension and is at 550HP with its supercharger. I use aftermarket tires (not run-flats!) and could never hit corners with run-flats the way I can with "regular" tires.

Another thought is that many drivers prefer a "detached" road feel, considering the high-feedback of a good steering linkage too twitchy. With variable-rate power assist also popular, that is another additional component in the steering chain. (Similarity to audio signal-path purity not being ignored....)

Lee

 

[JackD201]

Lots of the new cars have drive by wire steering these days. I suspect it has something to do with the larger displacements found these days.

 

[caesar]

My wife has had the 335i, and now has the 535i "M" version. Both use run-flats. More power is useful for straight lines, but is dangerous if the tires/steering won't allow you to use that power correctly in the turns. My truck has a custom suspension and is at 550HP with its supercharger. I use aftermarket tires (not run-flats!) and could never hit corners with run-flats the way I can with "regular" tires.

Another thought is that many drivers prefer a "detached" road feel, considering the high-feedback of a good steering linkage too twitchy. With variable-rate power assist also popular, that is another additional component in the steering chain. (Similarity to audio signal-path purity not being ignored....)

Lee

Thanks, RBFC. I will look into it. I drove the 535 and did not enjoy it much, so I asked to drive the 335 which felt much better, like the BMWs of old.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi
The BMW M3 (non-convertible) the Coupe, has it all .. IMO one of the best True sports cars around .. Every manufacturer is gunning for it none have mange to equal it let alone surpass it .. Likely the best BMW out there with the 335 a close second in the BMW Line.. The C63, Audi S and others are not close .. The closest to it with other manufacturer, could be,strangely, the Lexus IS-F

 

[Steve Williams]

I feel the C63 is as close or better than the 335 unless of course you compare the M3 to the C63

 

[garylkoh]

I have been test driving some sports sedans recently, and it seems like the steering has gotten worse in the last 10 years or so.It just doesn't give much back to the driver. The steering, though sharp enough, just feels artificial and uncommunicative. As a result the driving feels boring. Bigger Audi sedans don't quite have it. Even BMW 5 series has lost it.

Anyone know what's going on?

I think that it has to do with safety as so many high-performance cars are getting into the hands of the ordinary untrained driver.

I had an E30 BMW 320 prepped for race, and went from that to the E36 M3 Individual (3.2l Euro spec, right hand drive). I thought that handling and steering feel took a big step forwards with that. When the E46 M3 came, I thought that steering feel and "bum feel" took a step backwards. But that car would have been much safer for inexperienced drivers with all the safety features.

If you aren't an experienced driver, the E30 or E36 M3's might be just too much to handle. On the track, the E30 certainly gave me more hairy moments than the E36 because it was very much more tail happy despite having half the power and torque of the E36. The E46 was almost too safe a drive and IMHO would encourage much too high speeds on public roads.

Just my less than 0.002 cents worth..... speed, one of my many hobbies before I got married.

 

[caesar]

Thanks. If it were solely my car, I would definitely go for the M3 (or possibly the C63 AMG). But this is a family car that requires a sizable trunk, and with my wife being the primary driver, the styling is very important. Now we are looking at Audi A7, which has some killer gadgets. I wish it were the 500 hp S7, of course, but the S7 will not be available for 18 months. And the truth is that most of the sports sedans we are looking accelerate to 60mpg in 5.3-5.6 seconds. That's pretty damn good by most standards.

The A7 has been getting rave reviews. Even Motor Trend liked it, and complemented the steering feel at 40+ mph. So seems like there is something happening at low speeds that kills the steering feel at low speeds.


The first 1:15 of the video are some good auto porn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuu-2zsjbcI&feature=player_embedded

 

[RBFC]

So seems like there is something happening at low speeds that kills the steering feel at low speeds.

Does the S7 have variable power assist steering? This feature helps folks turn the wheel when resistance is higher, but dampens "feel" of the tire/road interface.

Lee

 

[JackD201]

Are the cars you're testing using run-flat tires? Run-flats are notorious for reducing road feel, due to the exceptionally stiff sidewalls.

Lee

I've had 3 sets of tires on my e46 M3. Pilot Sports and later Toyos on the 18" stock mags. The Toyos took away a whole lot of road loving. The car felt like it was dropping the kids off at school. The third are Contisport M3s on 19" BBS CCHs. I can't really compare this because I have them on different except to say steering is extremely communicative. So yeah, wheels really do make a big difference. I have run flats on my X5 but again I've not compared it to anything.

As for the C63, with traction control on I don't find hitting corners difficult at all. I've done a couple of hill climbs and it was apex after apex. Downhill is hairy though. The car is heavy. Going uphill or on extended trips, I'll take the C63 any day. Going downhill or anywhere really tight, give me the M3. I have a buyer for my e46 and I'm looking at the e92. BMW may be going turbo. I'd like to have what might be the last of the normally aspirated M cars.

 

[Old Listener]

Back a few decades, there were quite a few cars with very good steering feel based on a few elements:

- low vehicle weight
- fairly small tire contact patch
- non-power, rack and pinion steering
- fairly short wheelbase

There aren't many cars being sold now that follow that formula.

Of the cars I've owned, a 1978 Ford Fiesta had the most enjoyable steering feedback. Other small, sporty front wheel drive cars I've owned have been quite good too.

The sporty rear drive cars we've owned have given good steering feedback too they have been small and light. We've never owned a car that weighed 3300 lbs. or more.

Many of the responses in this thread have addressed power or cornering limits rather than steering feedback.

Bill

 

[JackD201]

Must be the price we pay for safety Bill. All these safety gadgets are heavy.

 

[Old Listener]

Must be the price we pay for safety Bill. All these safety gadgets are heavy.

Air bags, yes.
Crumple zones - I think that selective use of special materials rather than plain vanilla steel minimized the weight penalty. Using far more computer power in engineering design was very i
important too.
side impact protection - adding bars in doors adds weight.

Cars like the Mazda MX-5, Mazda2 and the Honda Fit meet current safety regulations and weigh far less than 3000 lbs.

I think the biggest contributor has been that most performance cars have to be luxury cars as well.

Our 1969 BMW 2002 didn't have air conditioning, a radio or power windows. The rear windows didn't roll down, they swung out.

Our 2011 VW GTI has convenience lights everywhere. The wiring for those lights adds weight. The GTI has a fancy display that shows current mileage. I am struck by the effect of even a moderate grade on current mileage. As I look at that number, I think that a GTI that weighed 300 lbs. less would be getting better mileage and delivering better performance.

Bill

 

[JackD201]

Don't forget 5 mile bumpers, ABS systems. Independent suspension vs leaf springs.

I definitely agree though. Cars are definitely getting bigger. The 3 series is a perfect example. e30,e36,e46,e90. The new 5 series looks more like the size of the 7 series two generations past. Todays Mitsubishi Lancers are larger than the Gallants of the 80s, Camrys are the size of Crowns. No surprise displacement and Bhp is growing along with the chassis. It's a chain reaction.

I do have a major soft spot for pocket rockets, particularly hot hatches. I've always wanted a GTI, ever since I had a GL in college and that famous slalom test came out where the GTI beat the 911. The RS3 is seriously tempting. Like you said though, even these cars have grown. Owners of the original Mini abhor the new Mini. Owners of e30 M3s feel the same about there faster but larger younger brothers.

You think we've got a bit of muscle car syndrome here? I mean we're looking for the "Oh SH%$!" factor because even if the new cars are much faster around the track they just feel too safe?

 

[Old Listener]

Ah, 5 MPH bumpers

Don't forget 5 mile bumpers, ABS systems.

I think that 5 mile an hour bumpers were to protect the insurance industry rather than drivers and passengers. Body color integrated 5 MPH bumpers have produced a lot of fat car butts since then.

. Cars are definitely getting bigger...Camrys are the size of Crowns. No surprise displacement and Bhp is growing along with the chassis. It's a chain reaction.

Yes. There was a Detroit saying that cars were priced by the pound in America. However, there is a practical reason for larger cars for Americans: Many more 6 foot+ people, including women and far too many very wide people.

I do have a major soft spot for pocket rockets, particularly hot hatches.

My wife and I share two cars. We need one car with four seats, four doors and a hatch for hauling habitat restoration tools and plants. For us, hot hatches deliver a mix of performance and practicality at a reasonable cost. That allows us to have a two seat convertible as the other car. Both cars are fun to drive so nobody suffers.

I've always wanted a GTI, ever since I had a GL in college and that famous slalom test came out where the GTI beat the 911.

A regular GTI costs about the same amount as a Camry so why not?

You think we've got a bit of muscle car syndrome here?

Of course.

Bill

 

[caesar]

Does the S7 have variable power assist steering? This feature helps folks turn the wheel when resistance is higher, but dampens "feel" of the tire/road interface.

Lee

RBFC, you are right on the money. My understanding is that people want to be able to steer easily in a parking lot at very low speeds.

There also may be something about using less gas with this new type of steering.