if the source, signal path, and speakers don't bring the resolution and complete musical truth, the perfect room, and all the acoustical perfection in the world will not improve those issues. first things first. garbage in, garbage out.
Obviously. But bad room acoustics will simply not allow you to hear the resolution and realistic timbres -- and the complete musical truth -- either. A SOTA system in bad acoustics can be pointless. And 'bad' in my view also includes what some might call mediocre or even 'acceptable'. 'Bad' is not necessarily just bathroom acoustics.
In fact, it is now clear to me that until my last carpet change, described on page 8 of my system thread,
my acoustics were in a sense still 'bad'. And my audiophile friends have raved for years about my room -- in some sense justified, in some sense not as I recently found out. I don't blame them, because I didn't know either.
yet agree that improving acoustics is comparatively almost free (compared to SOTA shiny gear) in terms of dollar cost assuming the bones of the room are reasonable.
if the source, signal path, and speakers don't bring the resolution and complete musical truth, the perfect room, and all the acoustical perfection in the world will not improve those issues. first things first. garbage in, garbage out.
yet agree that improving acoustics is comparatively almost free (compared to SOTA shiny gear) in terms of dollar cost assuming the bones of the room are reasonable.
I tend to agree with this,although I am probably the only one that has the experience that electronics classified as high end should suffice in giving a high level of SQ. Signal path devoid of interference and coherent speakers are more important than most rooms. I would always go with a dual mono signal path.
While room acoustics certainly can affect the sound, I suspect for the vast majority of people this discussion falls into the “How many angels can fit on a pin head.”
While room acoustics certainly can affect the sound, I suspect for the vast majority of people this discussion falls into the “How many angels can fit on a pin head.”
Al, what do you feel has contributed the most to your musical satisfaction and the success of your system: room acoustics, system set up (speaker and listener positioning), or improved equipment? You have done a lot of each lately.
As my system has evolved, I have found that the quality of the gear comes first but it's potential can only be realized with proper set up followed by improving room acoustics. And then, once the room is good, and the speakers/listener are set up properly, differences between upgrade component alternatives are more easily identified/heard. In other words, I have found that it all matters, because they have a complimentary effect on each other. Sadly, I now know that I have sold off gear in the past not having heard its full potential in my system because I did not understand the importance of proper set up and room acoustics.
The skeptic in me wonders what would happen to sales if dealers focused more on set up and optimizing a client's existing system rather than trying to sell them a new piece of equipment to solve some perceived problem. Was it Elliot who suggested that we would get better sound if we spent more on hiring experts to properly set up our systems than if we simply search for the next magic component upgrade? I hired Jim Smith and it was the best (read highest value) move I could have made at that time in terms of system performance and listening satisfaction. I learned a lot from him and it helped me move forward in the hobby while saving money.
While room acoustics certainly can affect the sound, I suspect for the vast majority of people this discussion falls into the “How many angels can fit on a pin head.”
here is the problem with that thinking; you never know that the little thing you are working on may become a large door which then becomes a wall you remove releasing the potential of your gear, and maybe uncovering another little thing, then a door and then another wall.
it's all about that musical reference in your mind that your are chasing...….and how it important it is to you and the time and resources you decide to invest. that is personal and there is no right or wrong. good enough is just fine if you are happy and satisfied with it.
sometimes it takes an 'epiphany' moment of experiencing a reference to push us into the process of discovery. but we have to first have the hunger and curiosity to be open to it.
Al, what do you feel has contributed the most to your musical satisfaction and the success of your system: room acoustics, system set up (speaker and listener positioning), or improved equipment? You have done a lot of each lately.
As my system has evolved, I have found that the quality of the gear comes first but it's potential can only be realized with proper set up followed by improving room acoustics.
my acoustics were in a sense still 'bad'. And my audiophile friends have raved for years about my room -- in some sense justified, in some sense not as I recently found out. I don't blame them, because I didn't know either. (...)
Just to show how subjective is this hobby I will point that your carpet is what Floyd Toole describes in his book as an completely inadequate carpet, the opposite of what acousticians consider a good carpet.
And since long I know that audiophile friends rave is mostly a form of camaraderie - besides that collective illusion is this hobby has been studied since long.
Just to show how subjective is this hobby I will point that your carpet is what Floyd Toole describes in his book as an completely inadequate carpet, the opposite of what acousticians consider a good carpet.
And since long I know that audiophile friends rave is mostly a form of camaraderie - besides that collective illusion is this hobby has been studied since long.
Fransisco, I agree with this in general. However, I recall specific instances where I have heard things from friends' systems and then gone home to reassess my own sound and make alterations to try to capture something I heard elsewhere which I thought was good. I have learned things from hearing audiophile friends' systems and from frank and open discussions about what is heard and what might be responsible for those changes.
There are also perplexing differences of opinion which surface with candid discussion about how a system sounds. This is also part of the learning. Interestingly, a WBF member was traveling to Boston on business recently. He contacted me to hear my system. We spend a delightful afternoon of listening and dinner together. He did not say much about the sound of my system during the entire visit. Perhaps he did not want to insult his host.
Fransisco, I agree with this in general. However, I recall specific instances where I have heard things from friends' systems and then gone home to reassess my own sound and make alterations to try to capture something I heard elsewhere which I thought was good. I have learned things from hearing audiophile friends' systems and from frank and open discussions about what is heard and what might be responsible for those changes.
100% agreement on the importance of listening to other people systems. We learn a lot from this listening, specially because we can easily get too used to our system and there is always something new to learn in this hobby. Somewhat less agreement about the open discussions in the presence of the owner ...
There are also perplexing differences of opinion which surface with candid discussion about how a system sounds. This is also part of the learning. Interestingly, a WBF member was traveling to Boston on business recently. He contacted me to hear my system. We spend a delightful afternoon of listening and dinner together. He did not say much about the sound of my system during the entire visit. Perhaps he did not want to insult his host.
Fransisco, I agree with this in general. However, I recall specific instances where I have heard things from friends' systems and then gone home to reassess my own sound and make alterations to try to capture something I heard elsewhere which I thought was good. I have learned things from hearing audiophile friends' systems and from frank and open discussions about what is heard and what might be responsible for those changes.
There are also perplexing differences of opinion which surface with candid discussion about how a system sounds. This is also part of the learning. Interestingly, a WBF member was traveling to Boston on business recently. He contacted me to hear my system. We spend a delightful afternoon of listening and dinner together. He did not say much about the sound of my system during the entire visit. Perhaps he did not want to insult his host.
My point exactly!
I don't want to stir up a major argument but if you don't know what you are looking for how do you think you will ever find it?
Searching for mysteries without any clues I believe is the Lyric.
I have been invited so many times to listen to someones system and the overwhelming majority where really really really bad!
The response to my question of who set your system up?
Oh I did it myself!
I for one know when I am out of my league. I can't fit my own golf clubs, I don't tune my AMG, I don't diagnose my own symptoms or do my own surgery however I can set up an audio system.
I was trained by experts and used that training with year of experience. There are those that can and those that think they can there is a difference. I learned a ton at Lyric from many experts, designers and excellent listeners, I was on HP's listening panel and that experience was amazing, I have visited some manufacturers who have amazing rooms and those that do not. Its a hobby to many but to those who don't know my best advise is invest in someone that does. Then go buy those shinny new toys.
Our society is unwilling to do anything these days except look for the best price. In business there is a old saying
Everyone wants the best product, the best service and the best price.
Choose 2!!!!!
I chose to not have dealers for the product I import for the singular reason that if you buy what I feel is a truly amazing product that it should be delivered and tuned in your home by someone that cares and has the time to do it. Its not the time it takes but the time it takes to do it right
I am a ex-basketball fanatic and remember when Red Holzman (coach of the Knicks in the good ole days) was asked how does it feel to be coach of the (championship) Knicks and his reply was, "how does it feel, you try telling a bunch of millionaires how to run their business".
Similar mentality here with audiophiles. Most of us claim to be self-anointed experts and spend big bucks so therefore we know.
There is much more to getting the best sound from the equipment you own than just the money you spend. Elliot and I always discuss this and we have spent lots of time "learning" and interacting with my room and equipment to get the best it is capable of and much of that requires me listening to someone with more experience.
I will also mention that "the chair" as one of the most important aspects of ones room/system to get the best sound. I kind of shudder as much as seeing an audiophile room with speakers against the wall in the corner halfway covered by curtains as when I see a high back recliner as someone's "listening chair".
Hey but to each his/her own and it is "their money"
Just to show how subjective is this hobby I will point that your carpet is what Floyd Toole describes in his book as an completely inadequate carpet, the opposite of what acousticians consider a good carpet.
I would have to see the context of Toole's remarks. The carpet also has to be seen in the context of the room, which features another, larger carpet with vey different acoustic properties, the one from speakers to the front wall.
And no, there is nothing subjective about the objective improvements of clarity, cleanness, and resolution of sound that came from employment of this new carpet. One might quarrel if the clear improvements in timbre are subjective or objective. I'll vote for the latter, but will not get into a fight with someone who claims the former.
Regardless of all this, while Toole is an expert, no expert knows everything, certainly not everything about specific circumstances. I am an expert in my own profession, but I don't know everything either.
And since long I know that audiophile friends rave is mostly a form of camaraderie - besides that collective illusion is this hobby has been studied since long.
Trust me, I have heard plenty of constructive criticism from my friends over the years from which I learned and without which I would not have been able to achieve the sound quality that I have today. There also has been plenty of criticism of the acoustics of my room over the years, on top of general positivity about it.
I would have to see the context of Toole's remarks. The carpet also has to be seen in the context of the room, which features another, larger carpet with vey different acoustic properties, the one from speakers to the front wall.
And no, there is nothing subjective about the objective improvements of clarity, cleanness, and resolution of sound that came from employment of this new carpet. One might quarrel if the clear improvements in timbre are subjective or objective. I'll vote for the latter, but will not get into a fight with someone who claims the former.
Regardless of all this, while Toole is an expert, no expert knows everything, certainly not everything about specific circumstances. I am an expert in my own profession, but I don't know everything either.
Trust me, I have heard plenty of constructive criticism from my friends over the years from which I learned and without which I would not have been able to achieve the sound quality that I have today. There also has been plenty of criticism of the acoustics of my room over the years, on top of general positivity about it.
as an aside, it turns out that Floyd Toole from Harmon purchased the same JVC front projector that I did from the same dealer. who also sells Revel speakers (from Harmon) which I use in my Home Theater.
sorry to de-rail the thread.
when this dealer saw pictures of my 2 channel room he commented on Floyd Toole also owning the same projector. I laughed, and mentioned that I was an anti 'Harmon speaker testing guy' who rejected/dismissed the Sean Olive claims and such. although I added I had not read any of Floyd's writings so I did not know about what they said, but that his name always came up in discussions that I tired of (not so much since 'he who will not be named' left).
I would have to see the context of Toole's remarks. The carpet also has to be seen in the context of the room, which features another, larger carpet with vey different acoustic properties, the one from speakers to the front wall.
And no, there is nothing subjective about the objective improvements of clarity, cleanness, and resolution of sound that came from employment of this new carpet. One might quarrel if the clear improvements in timbre are subjective or objective. I'll vote for the latter, but will not get into a fight with someone who claims the former.
Regardless of all this, while Toole is an expert, no expert knows everything, certainly not everything about specific circumstances. I am an expert in my own profession, but I don't know everything either. (...)
We disagree, IMHO clarity, cleanness, timbre and resolution are all subjective.
And one thing I can assure you - F. Toole is a real expert in acoustical materials. Can I suggest you to go through chapter 21 Acoustic Materials and Devices of his book? I debunks many myths on acoustics. Unfortunately chapter 22 Designing Listening Experiences suffers from his bias towards Multichannel. For advice on carpet see page 478. But we need to read the why's to understand his advice.
I did not question that, Francisco. But as I said, also an expert does not know everything, and most certainly not everything about specific circumstances, be it Toole or any given human being on this planet. Toole is an expert, but he is not a "high priest" of audio, nor should he be elevated to one. But you obviously don't do that, given your criticism of his bias.
And while general guidelines can be helpful, they are not applicable to every specific circumstance. And making an unquestioned dogma out of them is always an unhealthy attitude.
(...) when this dealer saw pictures of my 2 channel room he commented on Floyd Toole also owning the same projector. I laughed, and mentioned that I was an anti 'Harmon speaker testing guy' who rejected/dismissed the Sean Olive claims and such. although I added I had not read any of Floyd's writings so I did not know about what they said, but that his name always came up in discussions that I tired of (not so much since 'he who will not be named' left).
If you had read the book you would have admired F. Toole. Unfortunately I think I never had the opportunity of exchanging posts with any one that have read it ... The first part "Understanding the principles" is fundamental to understand stereo and sound reproduction - and also where the high-end separates from him. The second part "Designing listening experiences" is very rich on methods and objective data on audio, but in part is bonded to his main objectives of preference and predictability, and is mainly targeted towards multichannel.
F. Toole has an engineer perspective of audio - in the positive sense of the definition of engineer, involving knowledge, experience, reliability and economics.
Let me reformulate my position on relative importance of gear, set-up and acoustics.
Gear comes first. Proper set-up and proper adjustment of room acoustics go hand in hand with one another when it comes to realizing the potential of the gear. I don't think one of these two takes precedence over the other in importance, one depends on the other.
My point exactly!
I don't want to stir up a major argument but if you don't know what you are looking for how do you think you will ever find it?
Searching for mysteries without any clues I believe is the Lyric.
I have been invited so many times to listen to someones system and the overwhelming majority where really really really bad!
The response to my question of who set your system up?
Oh I did it myself!
I for one know when I am out of my league. I can't fit my own golf clubs, I don't tune my AMG, I don't diagnose my own symptoms or do my own surgery however I can set up an audio system.
I was trained by experts and used that training with year of experience. There are those that can and those that think they can there is a difference. I learned a ton at Lyric from many experts, designers and excellent listeners, I was on HP's listening panel and that experience was amazing, I have visited some manufacturers who have amazing rooms and those that do not. Its a hobby to many but to those who don't know my best advise is invest in someone that does. Then go buy those shinny new toys.
Our society is unwilling to do anything these days except look for the best price. In business there is a old saying
Everyone wants the best product, the best service and the best price.
Choose 2!!!!!
I chose to not have dealers for the product I import for the singular reason that if you buy what I feel is a truly amazing product that it should be delivered and tuned in your home by someone that cares and has the time to do it. Its not the time it takes but the time it takes to do it right
Elliot, it was Jim Smith who told me that the best dealers set up the gear they sell and don't leave until the customer is 100% satisfied. Jim also told me that a properly set up system will more clearly demonstrate the sonic differences between components. It is ironic that some dealers don't or can't properly set a system. It would make it easier for existing customers to hear defects in components and would probably lead to more sales of better equipment from those same dealers.
I agree with your advice to invest with experts, however, it is not always so easy. Jim Smith flew here from Atlanta. He can only do so many systems a year. We have to learn about other such resources. There are few dealers who make the effort or are able to assure the customer is completely satisfied, and there are few customers who are willing to pay the premium for such service. We are left to do what we can. I try to learn from others and by constantly tinkering with set up of my room, the speakers, and my analog front end. I also try to improve my listening abilities by exposure to live music and others' systems.
