Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[Another Johnson]

If you stop and think about it, 1/4” is on a similar order as wavelengths in the top octave of normal human hearing. So some with very sensitive hearing could hear differences if they played a music program with significant content in the uppermost octave.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don't think the type of speaker makes setup any less critical. I have a long history with Magnepans and they need precise placement.

Okay; then you're just fussier than I am.

 

[sbnx]

I also believe in careful speaker setup but I’m struggling with the idea that 1/16” difference is audible. Can you forward the names of the research papers
David Wilson referenced? I may be able to track them down even if they are paywalled.

In post #129 above I referenced a scientific study from 2019 that you can easily find via Google.

1/16" is a large adjustment. As the speaker becomes closer and closer to "dialed in" we can hear smaller and smaller movements. If the speaker is very roughly placed and someone goes over and moves it 1/16" you should be able to hear something but it will not be as obvious as if the speaker is already in the right XY location.

This is hard to explain but easy to demonstrate. @KeithR and @divertiti have seen me demonstrate this. Keith's was a very quick and dirty. Divertiti's was an all day (12 hour) thing.

 

[NC Lee]

I tried but I can't let these two recent thing go without writing about them. Both relate to speaker setup and how askew the "media" is on the subject. No wonder the average audiophile can't get it.

First is a well known youtuber. He has a large pair of Wilson speakers in his room. These have been there for a while and he even had the Wilson guy come set them up for him at one point. He raves about them constantly. Recently he got another "Reference level speaker" to play with/review in his room. Well, he moved the speakers in an placed them right in front of the Wilson speakers. This is a huge faux pas. No way are the new speakers going to sound their best in such a compromised position. Why does this matter? First, it is a free country and youtube is an open platform so he is free to post whatever he wants and say whatever he wants. But this is hugely irresponsible and demeaning to the brand that he put in front of the Wilson's. I hope his viewers are smart enough to realize how bad this is. I am sure he will give a big bag of excuses about how hard it would be for him to move the Wilson's out. But if I was the company representing the "New Reference Speaker" I would be seriously mad.

Ok, so the above is a pretty egregious example of non-detailed speaker setup by an amateur. Let's turn to the veteran mainstream press. Last night during halftime I thought "Hey, let's check out any new TAS videos they might have posted." So I found a video about the new YG Peak series with the subwoofer. I heard that speaker/subwoofer at the last show and thought it sounded pretty good in the hotel room so I was intrigued by what a reviewer would say. I want to thank TAS for the video review and thougth the video was well done and covered many of the aspects that a potential purchaser might want to know about. But at about 8:45 into the video the reviewer talks about how the YG rep come to visit and changed his setup. He says he moved the speaker about 1 foot diagonally and toed them out substantially from where he had them. He mentioned the speaker went from a ratio of about 0.8 to a ratio of 0.9. OK. OK. that is good to know. But then he says "Kind of impressive how much a small change in position can matter to the overall soundstaging". Wait! what!? Moving the speaker a foot diagonally and drastically altering the toe in is a HUGE change in position. How could he think this is a small change in position??

Sorry for the rant. I feel somewhat better but still concerned about what people are communicating regarding acceptable speaker setup practice.

But then he says "Kind of impressive how much a small change in position can matter to the overall soundstaging". Wait! what!? Moving the speaker a foot diagonally and drastically altering the toe in is a HUGE change in position. How could he think this is a small change in position??

I don't read it as you do. He didn't say he was surprised or didn't expect it; instead, he said it is impressive... and it is to me also, and more in particular, the sense of life, of "you are there" with small speaker position changes. I read his comment as telling his audience a fact they not all appreciate.

 

[Lee]

Okay; then you're just fussier than I am.

At least in this area.

 

[sbnx]

But then he says "Kind of impressive how much a small change in position can matter to the overall soundstaging". Wait! what!? Moving the speaker a foot diagonally and drastically altering the toe in is a HUGE change in position. How could he think this is a small change in position??

I don't read it as you do. He didn't say he was surprised or didn't expect it; instead, he said it is impressive... and it is to me also, and more in particular, the sense of life, of "you are there" with small speaker position changes. I read his comment as telling his audience a fact they not all appreciate.

I am simply taking issue that he calls moving the speaker by a foot diagonally and drastically changing the toe-in a "small change in position". I guess if he is speaking to the average audiophile who is not versed at all in speaker placement and is trying to illustrate how substantially one can influence the sound character by moving the speakers then ok. But I think better would have been something like "We moved the speaker a foot and toe-ed out the speakers such that they were pointed 8 feet behind my head. The sound became much bigger, spacious, etc and this illustrates how changing the speaker positon can have a drastic influence on how we perceive the sound." Something like that. I don't think it helps to call moving a speaker by a foot a "small change". To me, It gives the wrong idea.

I guess that is part of the thing with videos. Double edged sword. In written form the review would have gone through multiple editorial reviews. Videos seem to be much less edited for content. That, to me, is what makes them so great. I get to see what and how the reviewer really thinks.

 

[divertiti]

I don't read it as you do. He didn't say he was surprised or didn't expect it; instead, he said it is impressive... and it is to me also, and more in particular, the sense of life, of "you are there" with small speaker position changes. I read his comment as telling his audience a fact they not all appreciate.

Whether he was surprised is not relevant. Him calling a 1 foot movement "small" is the issue. That's categorically wrong and materially misleading to readers who are not well versed in setup.

This is hard to explain but easy to demonstrate. @KeithR and @divertiti have seen me demonstrate this. Keith's was a very quick and dirty. Divertiti's was an all day (12 hour) thing.

This is related to Ron's thread on "Does everything matter", the better a system is setup, the more every little change is revealed.

 

[sbnx]

The small adjustments in speaker placement aren't so much about frequency domain things -- like wavelength. It is much, much more about time and time smearing. Let's look at low frequency content where the wavelengths are huge.

Let's assume the speaker has M8X1.25 thread on the spikes. That means one full revolution of the spike yields a 1.25mm height change. Making a quarter turn to all four spikes and raising the speaker by 0.31mm (0.012 inch) is very clearly audible in bass articulation. It is not the frequency response we are necessarily fixing. It is the massive amount of decay and overlap we are fixing.

 

[Tangram]

In post #129 above I referenced a scientific study from 2019 that you can easily find via Google.

1/16" is a large adjustment. As the speaker becomes closer and closer to "dialed in" we can hear smaller and smaller movements. If the speaker is very roughly placed and someone goes over and moves it 1/16" you should be able to hear something but it will not be as obvious as if the speaker is already in the right XY location.

This is hard to explain but easy to demonstrate. @KeithR and @divertiti have seen me demonstrate this. Keith's was a very quick and dirty. Divertiti's was an all day (12 hour) thing.

Thanks for the reference. The results are an eye opener for me. Here’s the link:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330697982_Smallest_perceivable_interaural_time_differences

My main question after reading the paper is: Can we apply this experiment (which by design was carefully controlled) to speaker setup? I don’t know the answer but I note the following:

1) Participants were university students, aged 18-39, who had to meet a minimum hearing acuity standard
2) Tones and noise, not music, were used as test signals
3) Participants listened through headphones in a sound booth

As I said before, I am a fan of careful speaker setup, but not to the degree you advocate. I would love to see the results of an experiment that more closely resembles how we listen to music. As it stands, I remain a skeptic.

 

[treitz3]

The small adjustments in speaker placement aren't so much about frequency domain things -- like wavelength. It is much, much more about time and time smearing. <snip>

^^^ This.

When you are truly dialed in, the changes in your system's rendition of the playback becomes undeniable, once you hear it for the first time. It's not like your head needs to be locked into a vice to experience it either. When something gets knocked out of whack (even by a minuscule amount)? You almost immediately know it. But you have to hear it first.

I cannot emphasize enough just how much of a difference this makes to the end result as to what hits your ears.

Tom

 

[sbnx]

Thanks for the reference. The results are an eye opener for me. Here’s the link:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330697982_Smallest_perceivable_interaural_time_differences

My main question after reading the paper is: Can we apply this experiment (which by design was carefully controlled) to speaker setup? I don’t know the answer but I note the following:

1) Participants were university students, aged 18-39, who had to meet a minimum hearing acuity standard
2) Tones and noise, not music, were used as test signals
3) Participants listened through headphones in a sound booth

As I said before, I am a fan of careful speaker setup, but not to the degree you advocate. I would love to see the results of an experiment that more closely resembles how we listen to music. As it stands, I remain a skeptic.

Glad the article helped.

You are not alone in your skeptisism. It seems most audiophiles are skeptics and most must have strong roots in Missouri (The show me state).

If i had a magic wand and I could waive it and everyone on this forum would have perfect speaker alignment until midnight tomorrow i wonder what would happen at 12:01 when the speakers reverted back. I think everyone would be in a frenzy posting left and right and trying to understand how to get that back. When all the time smear disappears it is very powerful. But as Treitz3 says (to paraphrase) you have to hear it once.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Maybe panel dipole speakers are different? I'm just not used to panel dipole speakers being that critical.

I find that surprising Ron, I’ve found few speakers that are near as critical or give better feedback on setup changes than the Magnepans I’ve had… that’s the 3.7s and the 20.7s. Dialling in on positioning (or being a speaker whisperer ) is one of the great joys of Maggie ownership.

That little pivot with very fine increments where everything just pops absolutely into place and into fine focus (with the backwave bringing a lifelike presence) is a right of passage for the very patient ones.

Both of the horn open baffles that I have run a close second to the Magnepans in terms of being really obvious when you get them into exactly that magical spot in terms of right positioning. Small increments are quite noticeable as everything just suddenly snaps into place. In comparison all the box speakers that I’ve had at home and managed to get optimised including Proac Response 2s, Tune Anima and Tune Prime, Devore 0/96, Harbeth 30.2 and 40.2s (that are still here) haven’t been to me as particular in terms of very fine shifts in position.

 

[Another Johnson]

This hobby is fraught with unrecognized, but nevertheless devoutly practiced, Gnosticism.

The idea that you can’t recognize it until you’ve heard it rings true in my experience. But the tweaks are more often talismans than anything else.

Some time ago in another thread, someone commented that this was all like a religion. I commented in response that, in fact, it IS a religion for many. Complete with an alter, icons, idols, sacred rituals to please the gods, even including a formal liturgy, and sacrifices (of capital and time).

Yes, I know … it’s a “quest to find the best.” But sometimes it seems instead to be a quest to be recognized by others as “The Best” … a quest to attract a following and reach the priesthood, perhaps even to become The High Priest? The one who can heal others of the anxiety of FOMO.

Well, if you haven’t ignored me yet, now would be a good time.

 

[Al M.]

This hobby is fraught with unrecognized, but nevertheless devoutly practiced, Gnosticism.

The idea that you can’t recognize it until you’ve heard it rings true in my experience. But the tweaks are more often talismans than anything else.

Some time ago in another thread, someone commented that this was all like a religion. I commented in response that, in fact, it IS a religion for many. Complete with an alter, icons, idols, sacred rituals to please the gods, even including a formal liturgy, and sacrifices (of capital and time).

Yes, I know … it’s a “quest to find the best.” But sometimes it seems instead to be a quest to be recognized by others as “The Best” … a quest to attract a following and reach the priesthood, perhaps even to become The High Priest? The one who can heal others of the anxiety of FOMO.

Well, if you haven’t ignored me yet, now would be a good time.

Good post. Fortunately, I don't have enough money to spend on my system (and on a larger room) to ever reach the "reference" stage. As long as I am happy, that's all that counts.

I also like to spend my money wisely. I only throw money on components in the system where it counts, which leads to unconventional choices. And no, I don't have FOMO either, you can only heal yourself on that one.

 

[Tangram]

Good post. Fortunately, I don't have enough money to spend on my system (and on a larger room) to ever reach the "reference" stage. As long as I am happy, that's all that counts.

I also like to spend my money wisely. I only throw money on components in the system where it counts, which leads to unconventional choices. And no, I don't have FOMO either, you can only heal yourself on that one.

Argh. I don’t like these sorts of comments. Regardless of how they’re phrased, they almost always sound judgemental. Can’t there be a little corner of the world where like-minded, passionate hobbyists hang out together without taking backhanded shots at each other?

 

[AudioHR]

This hobby is fraught with unrecognized, but nevertheless devoutly practiced, Gnosticism.

The idea that you can’t recognize it until you’ve heard it rings true in my experience. But the tweaks are more often talismans than anything else.

Some time ago in another thread, someone commented that this was all like a religion. I commented in response that, in fact, it IS a religion for many. Complete with an alter, icons, idols, sacred rituals to please the gods, even including a formal liturgy, and sacrifices (of capital and time).

Yes, I know … it’s a “quest to find the best.” But sometimes it seems instead to be a quest to be recognized by others as “The Best” … a quest to attract a following and reach the priesthood, perhaps even to become The High Priest? The one who can heal others of the anxiety of FOMO.

Well, if you haven’t ignored me yet, now would be a good time.

I liked your parallel with religion....it's kind of true in many ways, lol! Nothing wrong with a little religion in one's life.

As far as quest to find the best and being recognized by others. I don't find that to be an inherently bad thing. A forum like this thrives on the sharing of ideas and it can become passionate.

My feeling is that if you believe strongly in something say it but know that there will be someone out there with another opinion ready to debate it with you. This is pretty healthy until it becomes perceived as personal. Just like in real life we should try to avoid this.

 

[sbnx]

This hobby is fraught with unrecognized, but nevertheless devoutly practiced, Gnosticism.

The idea that you can’t recognize it until you’ve heard it rings true in my experience. But the tweaks are more often talismans than anything else.

Some time ago in another thread, someone commented that this was all like a religion. I commented in response that, in fact, it IS a religion for many. Complete with an alter, icons, idols, sacred rituals to please the gods, even including a formal liturgy, and sacrifices (of capital and time).

Yes, I know … it’s a “quest to find the best.” But sometimes it seems instead to be a quest to be recognized by others as “The Best” … a quest to attract a following and reach the priesthood, perhaps even to become The High Priest? The one who can heal others of the anxiety of FOMO.

Well, if you haven’t ignored me yet, now would be a good time.

Why would I ignore you? Your post was not offensive. You simply communicated how you feel about our hobby.

Just to clarify. I am not trying to attract some kind of following. I am trying to continuously learn how to make my system better and to communicate to others things that I have found that work. To me the point of a forum is information sharing. If we are not sharing information then what is the point. The biggest thing to me and that I am trying to communicate is the importance of speaker placement and optimization. I think a lot know this is important. However, the real part I am emphasizing in this thread is how very small adjustments matter. This is totally free and it doen't matter if the person has a $10K system or a $1M system. I simply find it a travesty that people have spent so much money on their system and they are leaving so much performance on the table.

 

[Rumpole]

The importance of speaker placement will depend on the specific speakers being used, right? Some speakers might be more sensitive to 1 mm adjustments than others. Whether you listen far-field vs near-field might also be a factor? In the recent YG speakers, they really emphasize that the updates make speaker placement much easier with improved phase coherence and better wave guides in the speaker design. I think that in my large room, with speakers very distant from the front and side walls, and semi-nearfield listening, the placement is more forgiving, although I still spend a lot of time fiddling with the distance between speakers and toe in.

 

[Elliot G.]

The importance of speaker placement will depend on the specific speakers being used, right? Some speakers might be more sensitive to 1 mm adjustments than others. Whether you listen far-field vs near-field might also be a factor? In the recent YG speakers, they really emphasize that the updates make speaker placement much easier with improved phase coherence and better wave guides in the speaker design. I think that in my large room, with speakers very distant from the front and side walls, and semi-nearfield listening, the placement is more forgiving, although I still spend a lot of time fiddling with the distance between speakers and toe in.

All speakers are placement dependant.The laws of physics do not change versus some brand boilerplate. Somes peakers are more dependant probably becasue they are capable of more. In my experience over a very long time I have found every speaker I have worked with can be improved with better placement and room conditions. Every single one. The end game with some is still mediocre but the result of moving them to find the right, or a better spot, is totally universal in result.
The seating position does play a part in speaker set up and the sitting spot is equally important it gettting the best possible result. I agree with Todd about the closer to you get to getting it right the more the little increments make a difference and "sense."
I do find it sad that many just don't get it and therefore will never get all the performance they pay for. There is way to much ego at play in audio and too little expertise.

 

[Al M.]

I do find it sad that many just don't get it and therefore will never get all the performance they pay for.

It's like buying a sports car and never taking it out on a race track or even just a great road. Instead driving it in ordinary traffic or on the American highway with its speed limits.