Proof that cables Do make a difference

[MylesBAstor]

Terry,

I wasn't the one who brought up the question of directionality. I only mentioned one wire source.

As far as Belden goes, I find their actions despicable, not funny. I hope that story isn't true for it doesn't say much about their business ethics.

And I've tried Belden wire. Built the cables myself years ago after articles in Audio Amateur. Utter crap. (If you want to talk about bargains, it was one particular type of Phoenix Gold cable IC and speaker cable-the number was 320 if I remember correctly-that went a couple of years back for like $20.) Know what I used the Belden for? Hooked it up to my tuner, took the connectors off of the other end, and connected the bare ends with alligator clips to my tonearm wire in order to break it in.

That's funnier.

 

[terryj]

I wasn't the one who talked about the directionality. I only mentioned source of wire.

That's cool.

I didn't quote you??

As far as Belden goes, I find that despicable, not funny. I hope that is not true for it doesn't say anything about their business ethics.

can you expand?? That they told kurt? is that the unethical behaviour? or, just for giggles, keeping track of the 'directionality'-or lack of, is that the unethical behaviour??

And I've tried Belden wire. Built the cables myself years ago after articles in Audio Amateur. It sucked. Know what I used it for? Breaking in tonearm wire.

they obviously have the wrong cable engineers.

 

[MylesBAstor]

That's cool.

I didn't quote you??



can you expand?? That they told kurt? is that the unethical behaviour? or, just for giggles, keeping track of the 'directionality'-or lack of, is that the unethical behaviour??



they obviously have the wrong cable engineers.

Terry,

Isn't misleading their customer and screwing them over unethical? If the customer ordered it with certain specs, they in my book, are oblitgated to deliver the product that way. Then one must ask, what else did Belden not fullfull on their end? What other shortcuts did they take in making cables for other customers. If I were them, I wouldn't go bragging about this - 'cause they can watch their business go down the toilet faster than the Titanic sunk after hitting an iceberg.

Or maybe Belden's engineers are a little too full of themselves too. And what does "Kurt" have to gain by promoting this "third" hand story and trashing his competitors? If he's going to be honest, then name names. No it's easier to spread rumors.

 

[terryj]

Terry,

Isn't misleading their customer and screwing them over unethical? If the customer ordered it with certain specs, they in my book, are oblitgated to deliver the product that way. Then one must ask, what else did Belden not fullfull on their end? What other shortcuts did they take in making cables for other customers. If I were them, I wouldn't go bragging about this - 'cause they can watch their business go down the toilet faster than the Titanic sunk after hitting an iceberg.

Or maybe Belden's engineers are a little too full of themselves too. And what does "Kurt" have to gain by promoting this "third" hand story and trashing his competitors? If he's going to be honest, then name names. No it's easier to spread rumors.

I think you are misreading the quote myles???

AFAI can see, all they did was ship to the customer exactly what he ordered??

They labeled the ends, as he asked, so the customer could determine which way the electrons needed to flow, uphill or down. The cable had no marking at that stage, they just pulled it off the reel as normal.

They DID however keep a record of what was what. It seems that the customer, whilst auditioning each piece labeled the same way (it always came off the spool the same way) one day went one way in directionality, and the next the opposite.

No doubt it was a source of considerable mirth to the belden engineers, but how was that not fulfilling the customers wishes??

How was the customer screwed over? By whom was he screwed??

Why is not some of your righteous anger directed toward the cable vendor who proclaimed 'directionality' (and was wrong) in his cables??

TRUE, as you say, it is an anecdotal second party report I have quoted. However, it had enough 'possible validity' to get you all angry towards belden, which is why I asked why you had no thoughts for the poor customers.

Kurt? I grabbed that from a thread on AVS asking about cables. So, as such, he was not gaining anything nor was he trashing his competitors (which competitor was trashed?? did you manage to work out who the guy was who thought he could hear directionality?? Care to let us know? That way we can help others not buy his cables, he is obviously misdirecting them. I only mention that because you do seem to have a thing about ethical behaviour)

I did however find it refreshing that a cable vendor was telling the truth as HE saw it, a very different song than we'd normally find from cable vendors no?? And, as such, worthy of note no?

Yes, you're right. Maybe the belden engineers are full of themselves. Who knows??

That however is not a trait limited to belden engineers, it's applicable to people in general.

 

[audioguy]

Let's consider your real-world scenarios, involving raiding one's checkbook and living with the results. The Sophias with $7K cables will sound (my prediction) much better than Sashas with $2K or even worse, el cheapo cables. The Sashas will be throttled by the lesser, let alone the cheap, cables, that the deficiencies will tend to dominate what you hear.

Surely, surely, surely you jest! Surely.

 

[FrantzM]

Let’s center the debate some

I’ll allow myself to be Off Topics some…
I am always amused by some Audiophiles reverence toward Audio Designers. For the most part Audio Designers, are business persons.. That is what they do , find a way to sell their ware. Not angels at the Service of the Art of Audio Reproduction. They are selling and for that must use the tools of Marketing including aggrandizing the truth or lack of it thereof .. They also sell themselves.. Some create an aura.. and others are honest and brutally so at times, and this usually cost them (Dunleavy amongst many). It seems more comfortable to think Audio Designers are in a different stratum of knowledge one disconnected from mere Science and Engineering thus their anecdotes become audiophile orthodoxy, almost factual … IOW they are our own celebrities
… In the case of electronics there are some very good designers who know their stuff and have proven again and again that their products are special, be it tubes or SS , digital or analog .. Often the performances are both objective and subjective …
Now for cables .. Most cables manufacturers “Studies” can only charitably be characterized as “pseudo-science” .. I could cite the DC bias which cannot work … Trust me !!
@Nicholas
I have been an audiophile for more than 40 years, started when I was a toddler.... For a brief bio click THERE . I would qualify myself a trained and experienced audiophile. Have been exposed to the best of the best and have owned the best of the best… My hearing is better than average (tested) … I can hear and well .. The present use of Headphones, not the best way to fully enjoy music, but much better to analyze flaws in components is helping even more as the room is not in the equation … So again let’s not raise this.. It doesn’t apply. What I need are proofs since assertions were made. Proofs not anecdotes or utterances of “trust you ears” when we all know how easily our senses can be fooled or the power of our known psychology on our recollection of sensations… I am befuddled to see the time taken to refute this very basic fact .. Our sense can fool us and they do that constantly .. Of course we admit that our eyes can … but when it comes to our really special and really trained ears we can’t, we don’t , we trust our ears ... Interesting …
@ others
Many would be so surprised to know where their cables come from .. There are only a handful of cables manufacturers and most boutique/Audiophile cables are made by them …
What I want proof of is the ability of one human being to distinguish identical cable with the same metal with the only difference being the provenance of the metal .. A study that would leave no doubt as to this or those human being abilities. Aside from anecdotal recollections, I have seen none and I do not expect ever to see any.
At the end this debate will remain open for a while, Audiophile are new when it comes to hobbies. It will ultimately be settled , Audiophiles will focus on mater or real importance … The room, better speakers, better source, better way of recordings .. better analog to digital conversion , etc.

In closing I will paraphrase the words of a visionary, Ray Anselmo who founded Panamasat ..
“Truth and Technology will always triumph over BS”

P.S Rene Anselmo words were: “Truth and Technology will always triumph over bureaucracy and BS “.. He was one with a rather dirty language ..

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Surely, surely, surely you jest! Surely.

Audioguy, I agree with you. I'm not sure if the quote you have in your post is serious, but if so, I can say without hesitation that it doesn't coincide with my observations as an audio reviewer for going on 13 years now. Perhaps it is in jest . . .

 

[terryj]

Frantz, I gotta agree with you.

cable debates, well I guess it's like death and taxes, they just exist.

but I AM shaking my head in disbelief with the 'new revalation', well new to me anyway.

No longer are we debating mere mundane things like 'copper or silver', not are we debating such petty things as dielectric, but we are down to where we get the copper from!

It's like a bad b grade movie, you keep asking yourself 'where do we go from here, there can't be anywhere else can there?" and now we are having arguments about the source of the copper??

really?

Is this TRULY the state of hi end audio nowadays?

Audioguy, I agree with you. I'm not sure if the quote you have in your post is serious, but if so, I can say without hesitation that it doesn't coincide with my observations as an audio reviewer for going on 13 years now. Perhaps it is in jest . . .

If you read the thread, sadly you will see that it isnot really in jest.

 

[FrantzM]

@terryj

I can honestly tell you that sometimes audiophiles mange to surprise me.The last point about the provenance of the cable was one of those ... First time I have heard that one ... among the top ... for now ...

 

[es347]

Several years ago, I bought a pair of silver ICs with RCA connectors from a local dealer. He said that they had been made by a local guy...high quality RCAs and nice heat shrink and jacket, so I bought them for something like $75. When I flippantly asked about the lack of directional arrows, he quickly took them back and drew arrows on the red heat shrink with his ballpoint pen...no lie...and he did this without cracking a smile. From that moment forward, those poor electrons had no choice but to flow in the specified direction.

 

[terryj]

yeah, but if you reverse them, do you invert the polarity?

 

[audioguy]

From that moment forward, those poor electrons had no choice but to flow in the specified direction.

Well finally an explanation I can deal with.

For those of us with a Biblical bent, we get to blame Adam and Eve for the fallen state of man. In the cable debate, I think Noel Lee is the fall guy (of Monster Cable fame). This just gets more and more absurd.

Frantz, I can not think of any time I have ever disagreed wtih any of your posts on any forum except this time when you stated: "It will ultimately be settled , Audiophiles will focus on mater or real importance … The room, better speakers, better source, better way of recordings .. better analog to digital conversion , etc.".

It will never be settled. There are always going to be those who drive off the road because they actually believe the dirt, gravel, bumps, holes and debris are the right way to go. In fact I would suggest we are getting more wacky about this hobby. The source of the copper now affects what we hear. Amazing!

Next it will be the kind of soap the factory workers used on their hands before they constructed your cable.

 

[The Smokester]

@ Everyone... great discussion...

Let's consider your real-world scenarios, involving raiding one's checkbook and living with the results. The Sophias with $7K cables will sound (my prediction) much better than Sashas with $2K or even worse, el cheapo cables. The Sashas will be throttled by the lesser, let alone the cheap, cables, that the deficiencies will tend to dominate what you hear.

Yes, the Sashas with cheaper cables will still have huge amounts of bass, but the subtleties across the spectrum won't be there, because they're not coming through the cabling....

Get a first-hand understanding of the obvious differences in how cables sound, then work back to the electrical engineering that causes the differences....

The message from the above post can be summarized as follows:

"$7k cables will have more bass than $2k cables which still have a lot of bass but are not as subtle. If you can hear these obvious differences then you can work back to the electrical engineering that causes these differences."

Assuming this was posted in good faith, and given that many of us don't own Sasha's, perhaps he could favor us with the engineering explanation for his observations. Hopefully the point that was being made here would be clarified.

 

[FrantzM]

Audioguy

Now you have to burst my bubble of optimism

 

[RUR]

In the cable debate, I think Noel Lee is the fall guy....

Not-so-poor Noel deserves everything he gets. One of the reasons I like Kurt is that he gave Noel the finger when Monster attempted their typical IP bully-boy tactics with BJC.

 

[Gregadd]

It will ultimately be settled , Audiophiles will focus on mater or real importance … The room, better speakers, better source, better way of recordings .. better analog to digital conversion , etc.".

I think there is already a ton of attention devoted to these areas. Complete with, overkill, snake oil, incompetence, overpricing and sometimes outright fraud.
Did I mention I hate cables. Maybe that's why I accidentally stepped on Steves' Nordist that he has installed vertically. You can step on my cables because they are solid core.

 

[Randall Smith]

Yes, the Sashas with cheaper cables will still have huge amounts of bass, but the subtleties across the spectrum won't be there, because they're not coming through the cabling. The speaker can't hallucinate stuff that isn't there, or compensate for smearing or distortion or coloration (This goes back to Myles comment to be sure not to forget the source. If it's not in the source...)

why can't the speaker hallucinate? some of the content of this post seems like a hallucination!!

 

[amirm]

The story about Belden is amusing but likely false. Belden likely does have those OEM relationships and the best way to make sure they don't have it in the future, is to convey stories like that! It makes no logical sense that multiple employees would tell such stories especially if the source can be traced through the person stating it.

Further, the point about them making it if the idea was sound raises eyebrows three ways:

1. Just because they can make it, doesn't mean they can market it. They are a high-volume company selling wholesale for the most part, not a specialty retail producer. In order to be in this business, they would have to change their business model considerably and I don't see them wanting to do that.

2. They would need to poses audiophile abilities to hear such differences and clearly they do not. They are a pure engineering company designing and manufacturing cable using instruments. The idea of using people's ears to modify such a process is quite foreign to them.

3. Where they can, they also draw on the hype around cable differences. Here is a quick example: http://www.belden.com/pdfs/Pressrel/010306pr.HTM

"BELDEN BRILLIANCE® LOW CAP OFHC SPEAKER CABLES OFFER CLEAR, PRECISE SOUND...

Brilliance Low Cap OFHC Speaker cables deliver enhanced sound performance with exceptional clarity. The cable's performance gains are achieved through the use of high-conductivity, oxygen-free, copper conductors that are inherently free of impurities. "

Lots more examples: http://www.belden.com/pdfs/prodbull/NP210.pdf

"The copper conductors of HomeChoice Speaker cable have been manufactured using an oxygen-free manufacturing process. The result of this process is a high-conductivity copper conductor that is inherently free of impurities and therefore able to transmit a consistently pure sound."

In what way can their engineers prove that impurity in the cables affect sound? Where is that measurement on their site? What the heck is "pure sound?" And do their ordinary cables not have pure sound?

Sure, if you read the above links they talk about capacitance at longer lengths affect the response but they don't come out and say in short distances you can buy any of their cables and they would all sound the same.

So until we hear such a story and explanation for above from the people directly, I would not put any weight behind hearsay information as conveyed by someone.

 

[FrantzM]

<snip>

So until we hear such a story and explanation for above from the people directly, I would not put any weight behind hearsay information as conveyed by someone.

Does that only apply to Belden or does it for the many extraordinary claims that were made in this thread ?

 

[amirm]

Does that only apply to Belden or does it for the many extraordinary claims that were made in this thread ?

I don't think so. Those people have not claimed that there is no difference, only to find them saying the opposite elsewhere. In other words, I was commenting on the inconsistencies of the story told, not the point of the discussion itself .