Please help me decide on one of these tables!!

[microstrip]

(...) The problem with the SME is the arm, I never cared for the V and now it's only offered with silver wiring which IMO is the worst case scenario and you're limited to a single 9"-10" arm after spending all this money. (...)

Most people will just want a single tonearm ... IMHO the main drawback of the SME V is that azimuth is not adjustable - if some one cares about it, no problem - the Graham tonearms are a perfect company for the SME30.

I have owned a SME30/SMEV and would be very happy with it again. The main question in a turntable is compatibility with the system and user preference - currently we have tens of excellent choices.

 

[PeterA]

Most people will just want a single tonearm ... IMHO the main drawback of the SME V is that azimuth is not adjustable - if some one cares about it, no problem - the Graham tonearms are a perfect company for the SME30.

I have owned a SME30/SMEV and would be very happy with it again. The main question in a turntable is compatibility with the system and user preference - currently we have tens of excellent choices.

Micro, what do you mean by "compatibility"? I have always thought that a turntable, as a source component, was more or less independent of the rest of the system and could basically be selected in isolation. I prioritized resolution, neutrality, build quality and functionality. I also had experience with a lower SME turntable. I realize turntables, as do all components, have a sound so some degree, but I think of them as less dependent on other components (excepting the arm/turntable pairing) for example speaker/amp or amp/preamp, or room/speaker.

 

[ddk]

Most people will just want a single tonearm ...

Maybe being limited to a single short arm is acceptable in low end commercial products but not for me at this price, it's a design limitation forced on less educated consumer, at least provision for one long arm is mandatory IMO.

IMHO the main drawback of the SME V is that azimuth is not adjustable - if some one cares about it, no problem - the Graham tonearms are a perfect company for the SME30.

I have owned a SME30/SMEV and would be very happy with it again. The main question in a turntable is compatibility with the system and user preference - currently we have tens of excellent choices.

While not happy with lack of azimuth adjustment my problem with the IV & V has to do with their sound quality, the worst bass I ever heard from any tonearm I owned. In all honesty I don't see tens of excellent choices for tts today either, even at the so called SOTA.

david

 

[Bruce B]

Maybe being limited to a single short arm is acceptable in low end commercial products but not for me at this price, it's a design limitation forced on less educated consumer, at least provision for one long arm is mandatory IMO.

It's fine if you want to set it and forget it. I only need ONE reference. It's like owning 2 watches.... you never know which one is correct.

While not happy with lack of azimuth adjustment my problem with the IV & V has to do with their sound quality, the worst bass I ever heard from any tonearm I owned. In all honesty I don't see tens of excellent choices for tts today either, even at the so called SOTA.
david

As I do restoration and archival of acetates and precious one-off LP's, the bass has never been a problem... especially if you pair it with a compatible cart. and phono pre.

 

[microstrip]

Maybe being limited to a single short arm is acceptable in low end commercial products but not for me at this price, it's a design limitation forced on less educated consumer, at least provision for one long arm is mandatory IMO.
(...)
While not happy with lack of azimuth adjustment my problem with the IV & V has to do with their sound quality, the worst bass I ever heard from any tonearm I owned. In all honesty I don't see tens of excellent choices for tts today either, even at the so called SOTA.
david

The SME 30/12 can accept 9 and 12" arms. IMHO turntable options such as length or number of tonearms do not have anything to do with consumer education and I can not see any connection between tonearm size and price.

And yes, I know that audiophile hyperbole - that I praise - is very often on the negative, no problem. I have often listened to the SME V tonearm playing with great bass - more than a few good friends own it - but considering I do not own it anymore I will let to current owners the pleasure of debating this aspect of its performance. BTW, I used it with the Sumiko Palo Santos and enjoyed it a lot.

 

[ddk]

It's fine if you want to set it and forget it. I only need ONE reference. It's like owning 2 watches.... you never know which one is correct.

(Edit) Given your taste for luxury I bet you definitely have more than one watch! I beg to differ here since there's always more than one correct when it comes to vinyl front ends. Besides in your case that the tt is a tool multiple arms setup in advance would allow you to go from 78 to mono to stereo without having to setup and re-setup every time. I have a couple of archivist clients who jumped on my Micros when they saw the multi-arm possibility.

As I do restoration and archival of acetates and precious one-off LP's, the bass has never been a problem... especially if you pair it with a compatible cart. and phono pre.

I respect your position and your work Bruce but in this case we're working towards different ends and have different tastes.

david

 

[ddk]

The SME 30/12 can accept 9 and 12" arms. IMHO turntable options such as length or number of tonearms do not have anything to do with consumer education and I can not see any connection between tonearm size and price.

The 30/2 mentioned in OP is limited to 9"-10" arms and even the 30/12 seems to limitation with the 12" arms one can use with it. My point regarding the price had to do with the tt's design, the 30/2 is limited in it's design and restricts the user to one 9" arm while with the Raven which is in similar price and performance level not only has upgrade paths it also allows the user choice of any length arm and multiples of them for a more varied experience; are you certain that Gary will never want to expand his horizons in the future?

I can tell you from direct experience even with SME's own stable there's a big jump in sound quality between the same model arm in 9" and 12" versions.

And yes, I know that audiophile hyperbole - that I praise - is very often on the negative, no problem. I have often listened to the SME V tonearm playing with great bass - more than a few good friends own it - but considering I do not own it anymore I will let to current owners the pleasure of debating this aspect of its performance. BTW, I used it with the Sumiko Palo Santos and enjoyed it a lot.

I'm not trying to dictate anything to anyone Francisco just sharing experiences like everyone with everyone; nor was I trying to catch you with the tens of great tables comment, I'm actively looking to import a realistically priced turntable that performs like some of the ones on Gary's list and was hoping that you'd come back with some recommendations .

david

 

[bonzo75]

David has a point, if I was looking for a TT today I wouldn't want one that allows only a 9 inch arm. If I got a TT with only.one 12 inch arm, I would want that easily changeable.

 

[JackD201]

Given JE OTLs and Classic speakers my knee jerk reaction would be the 301.

 

[PeterA]

The 30/2 mentioned in OP is limited to 9"-10" arms and even the 30/12 seems to limitation with the 12" arms one can use with it. My point regarding the price had to do with the tt's design, the 30/2 is limited in it's design and restricts the user to one 9" arm while with the Raven which is in similar price and performance level not only has upgrade paths it also allows the user choice of any length arm and multiples of them for a more varied experience; are you certain that Gary will never want to expand his horizons in the future?

I can tell you from direct experience even with SME's own stable there's a big jump in sound quality between the same model arm in 9" and 12" versions.

David, Though the Model 30/12 is not on the OP's list, it can accommodate both the 9" V and 12" V-12 arms. The vintage SME 3012R will not fit due to the suspension towers as we discussed on a different forum. I agree with your comment that there is jump in sound quality between SME arms of different lengths. I think you have directly compared the 3009 to the 3012 on the same table while I have directly compared the V and V-12 on my Model 30/12.

It seems from the OP that Gary wants to set up the table, spin LPs and not tinker much. If that is indeed the case, then options for different arms don't seem to be a priority for him and IMO, the SME should then not be ruled out for its lack of arm options. Sound quality and set/forget seem to be Gary's priorities. Furthermore, if he wants a table to pursue multiple arm options in the future or even an upgrade path like the Raven offers, that implies future costs and tinkering. Overlooking that that is expressly not a priority as stated in the OP, then he could look into different tables altogether, not on the list, and that might then include the SME 30/12.

 

[PeterA]

The SME 30/12 can accept 9 and 12" arms. IMHO turntable options such as length or number of tonearms do not have anything to do with consumer education and I can not see any connection between tonearm size and price.

And yes, I know that audiophile hyperbole - that I praise - is very often on the negative, no problem. I have often listened to the SME V tonearm playing with great bass - more than a few good friends own it - but considering I do not own it anymore I will let to current owners the pleasure of debating this aspect of its performance. BTW, I used it with the Sumiko Palo Santos and enjoyed it a lot.

Yes, I also don't understand these comments about the bass quality of the SME V arm. I think bass with the V-12 is better, but wasn't the bass quality of the SME 30/2A one of the attributes that Fremer praised in his original review of the combination along with its jet black background?

Alastair Robertson Aikman, founder of SME, was an opera lover and had Quad ESL63 speakers. I don't think he prioritized the absolute quantity or the extension of bass, but I do think he probably focused on the quality of bass from his products. I find it difficult to believe that he would develop the IV and V arms after his success with previous designs knowing that they had inferior bass reproduction.

 

[bonzo75]

I loved the 30/12 in this system. The owner of this shop also now owns SME. This was great despite the fact that it was playing through the 1800 quid basic Nagra BPS phono

http://zero-distortion.org/yg-hailey-nagra-burm-909-lampi-sme-3012-siltech-at-audio-lounge/

 

[microstrip]

(...) I'm not trying to dictate anything to anyone Francisco just sharing experiences like everyone with everyone; nor was I trying to catch you with the tens of great tables comment, I'm actively looking to import a realistically priced turntable that performs like some of the ones on Gary's list and was hoping that you'd come back with some recommendations .

david

Sorry, usually when people post a list asking for advice on one of them, many people feel compelled to suggest their own preference outside the list , something I usually avoid.

I think you dislike acrylic or polymer based platters, I will skip Kuzma, Scheu, Clearaudio or Michell, and suggest metal platters - I heard good sound with EAT (great value for money, IMHO) , Bergmann, Brinkmann or in the other end of the alphabet , VPI or Verdier.

BTW, probably our divergence is also due to the price of SME in the US - in the UK it is still possible to get it at much nicer prices. But as we know, I am just formulating opinions ...

 

[ddk]

David, Though the Model 30/12 is not on the OP's list, it can accommodate both the 9" V and 12" V-12 arms. The vintage SME 3012R will not fit due to the suspension towers as we discussed on a different forum. I agree with your comment that there is jump in sound quality between SME arms of different lengths. I think you have directly compared the 3009 to the 3012 on the same table while I have directly compared the V and V-12 on my Model 30/12.

It seems from the OP that Gary wants to set up the table, spin LPs and not tinker much. If that is indeed the case, then options for different arms don't seem to be a priority for him and IMO, the SME should then not be ruled out for its lack of arm options. Sound quality and set/forget seem to be Gary's priorities. Furthermore, if he wants a table to pursue multiple arm options in the future or even an upgrade path like the Raven offers, that implies future costs and tinkering. Overlooking that that is expressly not a priority as stated in the OP, then he could look into different tables altogether, not on the list, and that might then include the SME 30/12.

I don't really understand the argument against flexibility specially when you know already how much you gained from an arm length exchange. It's not as if one has to start with multiple arms and cartridges, just set up one and forget if that's the intention but there are many future options open for improvement, what's wrong with that? Sonically the Raven has been and is one of he better sounding best built record players on the market for years, so nothing give up and everything to gain with the Raven.

david

 

[microstrip]

The 30/2 mentioned in OP is limited to 9"-10" arms and even the 30/12 seems to limitation with the 12" arms one can use with it. My point regarding the price had to do with the tt's design, the 30/2 is limited in it's design and restricts the user to one 9" arm while with the Raven which is in similar price and performance level not only has upgrade paths it also allows the user choice of any length arm and multiples of them for a more varied experience; are you certain that Gary will never want to expand his horizons in the future?
(...)

Yes, people owning SME30's are not supposed to upgrade - no doubts that besides excellence (IMHO), SME is also a lifestyle. In this aspect we would have to ask personal questions to Gary before making suggestions. I could find he owns/tested a Lampizator, probably someone enjoying a new sound every fortnight is not an ideal customer for an SME!

 

[microstrip]

(...) Sonically the Raven has been and is one of he better sounding best built record players on the market for years, so nothing give up and everything to gain with the Raven.

david

I agree with you on this point - it is really an excellent sounding turntable. I never owned one because some one got a local bargain before I made up my mind concerning the number of motors ...

 

[PeterA]

I don't really understand the argument against flexibility specially when you know already how much you gained from an arm length exchange. It's not as if one has to start with multiple arms and cartridges, just set up one and forget if that's the intention but there are many future options open for improvement, what's wrong with that? Sonically the Raven has been and is one of he better sounding best built record players on the market for years, so nothing give up and everything to gain with the Raven.

david

We can discuss the advantages and disadvantages of flexibility, but I think that Gary expressed his priorities in the OP, and I am responding to that. I notice that only two of the five turntables options on the list include tonearms. If he has in mind some not listed 9" or 12" tonearm that he wants to try, then, I agree the Raven does offer that option.

Gary, it may be helpful if you share some more of your priorities and goals. What is your budget? Will you be setting up your tonearm/cartridge or do you have a local dealer who can do that? Are you open to suggestions outside your initial list and what arms would you consider besides the Kuzma 4-Point and SME V for the other tables on the list? At this point, it seems that the discussion is revolving around the Raven, SME and 301. If you end up buying one of those three, it may simply come down to price, condition and arm options.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, people owning SME30's are not supposed to upgrade - no doubts that besides excellence (IMHO), SME is also a lifestyle. In this aspect we would have to ask personal questions to Gary before making suggestions. I could find he owns/tested a Lampizator, probably someone enjoying a new sound every fortnight is not an ideal customer for an SME!

Better than to keep changing cables across the Vivaldi stack at 70% of the price to hit optimal sound

The great thing about the Lampi is, you don’t even need to change stock valves – but then someone who is into what’s best does a valve shootout and quickly settles down to one set. Until the next set comes along. And boy, the high performance valves from KR are coming!

 

[bebop86]

guys thanks so much-It is not that I do not like to tinker- It is that I just have very little time to enjoy the music and would rather not have to keep working on setup- I do enough of that with all the tubes I have in my system!!
Even my Metronome C8+DAC has tubes that I changed over and can change from tube to solid state depending on the music coming from my server- At this stage I think I am leaning towards the SME- But still am open that is why I come to the experts!!

 

[microstrip]

Better than to keep changing cables across the Vivaldi stack at 70% of the price to hit optimal sound

The great thing about the Lampi is, you don’t even need to change stock valves – but then someone who is into what’s best does a valve shootout and quickly settles down to one set. Until the next set comes along. And boy, the high performance valves from KR are coming!

Well, as far as I know Vivaldi stack users do not keep changing digital cables. They simply consider it always sounds optimal irrespective of cables ...