Our Systems, Scale, and the Sound of Music

TheMadMilkman

Well-Known Member
Sep 7, 2010
125
0
91
Ouch. Headphones never get big no matter how loud or how clean they are.

Headphones get as big as my head.

Which, figuratively speaking, is huge.

Up close, in most listening rooms, I don't think they sound natural. YMMV, of course, and consider the source: I listen to very little orchestral music.

I listen to a lot of orchestral music, and attend live performances every few months. I've yet to hear a set of speakers that can match the amount of energy produced by a full orchestra at close range. I think line arrays with multiple bass drivers (the Genesis 1.2 come to mind) probably get the closest.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,669
10,942
3,515
USA
I listen to a lot of orchestral music, and attend live performances every few months. I've yet to hear a set of speakers that can match the amount of energy produced by a full orchestra at close range. I think line arrays with multiple bass drivers (the Genesis 1.2 come to mind) probably get the closest.

When you listen to a piano of violin concerto, how successfully do those large line arrays with multiple bass drivers reproduce the solo piano or violin during the solo passage, in terms of scale relative to the rest of the orchestra when it joins in?
 

Atmasphere

Industry Expert
May 4, 2010
2,375
1,866
1,760
St. Paul, MN
www.atma-sphere.com
There have been a few comments about how volume effects scale. Do people find that when the volume increases, the size of images and sense of scale also increase?

The successful systems that I have heard seem to maintain a constant or stable instrument and soundstage size and location, but the size of the projected sound increases to fill the room with more pressure or energy. The images of the performers do not increase is scale. Very similar to what happens when the live singer or musician plays louder. They obviously remain the same size as they perform, but the projected sound increases in volume, energy and scale.

Playing the system louder is different from dynamics in the recording. I do find that turning up the volume helps a little with giving a larger presentation.

One thing a lot of people overlook is that those of us that have gone for large format loudspeakers haven't done so purely for the sake of higher SPL. I would go out on a limb here and say 99.99% of us did so for better "ease" of presentation relative to the scale we are after. Less stress, less distortion, less fatigue. Now crank up a table radio to anywhere near the levels you would rock out to without blowing it up. :D

My speakers are pretty big (Classic Audio Loudspeakers T-3.3). They have dual 15" high excursion woofers and go down to 20Hz. Overall the system efficiency is about 98 db, enough to allow me to play the system to some nice sound pressures with 60 watts! However, as per above, they are nice at lower levels too- simply put, they play effortlessly and it does not hurt that the amp is often loafing too.

To really get that sense of scale though, you kinda do need a big room so you can get your speakers well apart. For this you also need greater resolution, as the further apart your speakers are, the better your gear has to be at doing the center fill. If you have all that right, big recordings like full orchestra come off big and lifelike, like you can get up and easily walk between the performers. Its pretty sweet.

Now when I first experienced this it was actually a long time ago, the first time I heard Fulton Musical Industries (FMI) 80s in my home. They were a lowly 8" 2-way bookshelf. I had them a good 15 feet apart and they were quite spacious. I could not play them at a lifelike level though- that would have destroyed them. Its much easier now with more efficient speakers- I don't need crazy power to make it happen- at most volume levels the amps are running well below 10% of full power even on peaks.
 

GaryProtein

VIP/Donor
Jul 25, 2012
2,542
31
385
NY
I listen to a lot of orchestral music, and attend live performances every few months. I've yet to hear a set of speakers that can match the amount of energy produced by a full orchestra at close range. I think line arrays with multiple bass drivers (the Genesis 1.2 come to mind) probably get the closest.

I have to say my IRS-V and other line sources do an excellent job with orchestral music.

If I close my eyes, I can get very close to the real thing.


One thing a lot of people overlook is that those of us that have gone for large format loudspeakers haven't done so purely for the sake of higher SPL. I would go out on a limb here and say 99.99% of us did so for better "ease" of presentation relative to the scale we are after. Less stress, less distortion, less fatigue. Now crank up a table radio to anywhere near the levels you would rock out to without blowing it up. :D

I fully agree with you on that.

The 85 dB average peaks (more for crescendos) I listen to are fairly easily attainable by most speaker systems.
 
Last edited:

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
When you listen to a piano of violin concerto, how successfully do those large line arrays with multiple bass drivers reproduce the solo piano or violin during the solo passage, in terms of scale relative to the rest of the orchestra when it joins in?

Quite well in the case of the Gen 1.1 ... Same with the Scaena, and Pipedreams, MikeL should chime in about the MM7 and its complement of bass drivers .. Those speakers will run the gamut from very small to almost -live scale ... The gen 1.2 being the king in this regard.
 

zztop7

Member Sponsor
Dec 12, 2012
750
3
0
Edmonds, WA
+1 "ease" zz.
One thing a lot of people overlook is that those of us that have gone for large format loudspeakers haven't done so purely for the sake of higher SPL. I would go out on a limb here and say 99.99% of us did so for better "ease" of presentation relative to the scale we are after. Less stress, less distortion, less fatigue. :D
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,669
10,942
3,515
USA
Quite well in the case of the Gen 1.1 ... Same with the Scaena, and Pipedreams, MikeL should chime in about the MM7 and its complement of bass drivers .. Those speakers will run the gamut from very small to almost -live scale ... The gen 1.2 being the king in this regard.

Yes, I'm curious to hear what Steve, MikeL, Frank750, Rockitman and other owners of large speaker systems think about this topic. I fully understand the limitations of smaller speakers and certainly don't expect them to sound as convincing as very large speakers when reproducing the sound of a full symphony in a well designed large room. But I have heard small speakers reproduce small scale music exceptionally well and wonder if large speakers can do that as well.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,518
1,448
When you listen to a piano of violin concerto, how successfully do those large line arrays with multiple bass drivers reproduce the solo piano or violin during the solo passage, in terms of scale relative to the rest of the orchestra when it joins in?

I have heard Rachel Podger Vivaldi Extravaganza (Channel Classics) on a Genesis 1.1 system that was customized by a former colleague of Arnie Nudell. Driven by Kondo's greatest electronics and a Scarlatti/Walker Proscenium front end. I practically counted the number of artists sitting in my friend's living room...the stringed instruments and musicians were lined up along the back of his living room...I have never heard that ever on another system, not even close. It took your breath away to hear it so.

I wish I could have heard it on the Rockport Arrakis system I heard in HK, but did not have that CD with me at the time.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,518
1,448
Yes, I'm curious to hear what Steve, MikeL, Frank750, Rockitman and other owners of large speaker systems think about this topic. I fully understand the limitations of smaller speakers and certainly don't expect them to sound as convincing as very large speakers when reproducing the sound of a full symphony in a well designed large room. But I have heard small speakers reproduce small scale music exceptionally well and wonder if large speakers can do that as well.

Even in smaller scale music (3 blues artists), that is actually quite big in actual terms in the context of a living or listening room...a human being standing in front singing and perhaps someone playing guitar and a harmonica...on the bigger systems I have heard, in addition to the notes having power at 'lifelike volume', there is a 'tangible presence' about the music and artists that is a whole dimension of fun/realism when done right.

A test is when I go out of the listening room and perhaps downstairs when playing close-miked piano, does it sound like a stereo...or does it sound like 'hang on, is there someone playing piano upstairs our living room?' Our neighbour actually practices piano upstairs...so its quite a nice comparison test. Everyone once in a while, I can get it close enough such that one time, my wife asked...is that our system or is that our neighbour upstairs?
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,804
4,551
1,213
Greater Boston
Even in smaller scale music (3 blues artists), that is actually quite big in actual terms in the context of a living or listening room...a human being standing in front singing and perhaps someone playing guitar and a harmonica...

Yes, but usually not in the accoustics of a concert hall. Small scale music does produce smaller images there.
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,804
4,551
1,213
Greater Boston
I fully understand the limitations of smaller speakers and certainly don't expect them to sound as convincing as very large speakers when reproducing the sound of a full symphony in a well designed large room.

Indeed. Even though smaller speakers can be quite good at it, they just cannot reproduce large-scale music at a size that large speakers can. Even though I like my sound at home, I am under no illusion with respect to this.

But I have heard small speakers reproduce small scale music exceptionally well and wonder if large speakers can do that as well.

I am wondering as well. A number of the proponents/owners of large speakers here seem to pretend that 'it's not even an issue'. Well, I got bad news: it IS an issue. Why else would Harry Pearson, an eminent figure in audio, have written the following in his review of the large NOLA Concert Grand Reference Gold speakers:

http://thehighfidelityreport.com/nola-concert-grand-reference-gold/

But where the CGRG stands alone is the ability to properly, and thoroughly, reproduce all variations of music, including the smaller, the softer, and more delicate moments.

They provide appropriate and accurate image size on solo voice and smaller groups, a most difficult task for large loudspeakers. They sound as fluidly natural on soft and delicate passages as they do on the fireworks (and they will knock you flat on the loud, dynamic, demanding stuff). Typically, mega-speakers are most suitable for “large scale works”, to be played at loud levels, because these speakers always sound “large” (this is the trade-off). But this tendency to produce “large” sounds occur even when the program is a “smaller” source, stripping away the natural elements, taking you away from the source.


Big speakers DO have difficulty reproducing small scale, as even Harry Pearson points out. I personally have never heard any of them do it right. But that was always at dealerships, and there may be always issues with set-up. So I still give them the benefit of the doubt. Why? Because I know how hard it is to get a speaker to sound optimal, especially at a dealer. I have never heard imaging and soundstaging from my speakers at a dealership like I have now at home. Heck, in the 23 years that I have had the speakers at home I have never heard soundstaging and imaging from them even remotely close to what I have now until recently, with all the room treatments, electronics and optimization in set-up (however, not surprisingly I have never heard bloating of images from my small speakers, except with weird recordings).

So let's assume that large speakers indeed can sound small. What is it that enables this? What is the difference in set-up at a dealer and optimized set-up at home? Lloyd had very good posts on vibration control and noise control, but is that it? A Magico Q7 does not vibrate, but in the few minutes I have heard it, it played precisely into the stereotype of a large speaker that can't do small. So what is it that makes large speakers 'tick' so that they can reproduce small size properly? Can all of them do it under optimal circumstances, or can just a few do it?

______

Edit: I just realized that the comments about the NOLA Concert Grand Reference Gold speakers cited above are not from HP, but from someone else offering additional thoughts to his review. My apologies. Nonetheless, the observations obviously stand.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
225
1,190
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
Quite well in the case of the Gen 1.1 ... Same with the Scaena, and Pipedreams, MikeL should chime in about the MM7 and its complement of bass drivers .. Those speakers will run the gamut from very small to almost -live scale ... The gen 1.2 being the king in this regard.

I'm the designer of the Genesis 1.2, so take this with a pinch of salt.

The song I use to "prove" that a huge loudspeaker can produce realistic-sized small images is "A Song for You" by Jacintha. She starts this track with about a minute of just solo singing. From a 7-foot tall, 1.5 ton behemoth - the image has to be of a slim, petite young lady in a cavernous studio (the old Lion Studio in Singapore) and she has to sound like she is standing in a pit singing. This is because the mic was hung slightly high.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-179862-jeremy-monteiro-a-song-for-you-karen-200g-lp.aspx

(I can't wait for this new LP version coming from Winston Ma!!!!)

179862.jpg
 

Al M.

VIP/Donor
Sep 10, 2013
8,804
4,551
1,213
Greater Boston
I'm the designer of the Genesis 1.2, so take this with a pinch of salt.

The song I use to "prove" that a huge loudspeaker can produce realistic-sized small images is "A Song for You" by Jacintha. She starts this track with about a minute of just solo singing. From a 7-foot tall, 1.5 ton behemoth - the image has to be of a slim, petite young lady in a cavernous studio (the old Lion Studio in Singapore) and she has to sound like she is standing in a pit singing. This is because the mic was hung slightly high.

Gary,

so how do you have to set up the speakers to achieve this? What are the most critical issues? Also, how large does the room have to be, how far do you have to sit from the speakers?

Thanks
Al
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
414
1,210
Northern NY
I have had smaller speakers....perhaps mini monitors and a sub can give more realistic scale for single and duos. What those setups fail to do for me is deliver the overall dynamic slam, sound pressure and mid bass extension big speakers do. I had w8's prior to my current speakers. Perhaps they could scale classical trios more realistically in size. I listen to music like that less than 2% of the time. There is no right or wrong...only preference. I am happy where I am in stereo reproduction and am too tired and disinterested to argue which is best.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
225
1,190
Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
Gary,

so how do you have to set up the speakers to achieve this? What are the most critical issues? Also, how large does the room have to be, how far do you have to sit from the speakers?

Thanks
Al

There is no one correct answer. It depends on the speaker, and sometimes even the system. My speakers are all dipole, some are dipole line-sources and some are four-tower line-sources with separate woofer towers. That makes them different from the majority of speakers out there.

Here's a recent experience - on Tuesday, I went to visit with a Genesis 1.1 owner. This would be one in original condition from nearly 18 years ago. The room was quite small, but well treated (not over-damped). When I first listened, a solo voice like Jacintha was over-large, but a recording of a solo piano was small and thin. All I did was to adjust the low-pass, phase and gain on the bass. The image and scale problem there was caused by a coherence issue - in this case there was a bit of a mid-bass suck-out and the phase was skewed by just under 100 deg off between the midrange and the woofers.

In another case, solo voice was again too large, and a piano was also too large. That instance, I moved the woofer towers closer to the midrange/tweeters and that fixed the problem.

Even the smallest of the Genesis speakers allow you to adjust tweeter output and bass contour. With so much flexibility, we can and do adapt to rooms which are too small and the listener sitting too close, or rooms that are too large and the listener sitting too far away. My speaker set-up procedure is available to all - including non-Genesis owners.

http://genesisloudspeakers.com/whitepaper/Genesis_Loudspeaker_Setup_Procedure.pdf
 

TheMadMilkman

Well-Known Member
Sep 7, 2010
125
0
91
When you listen to a piano of violin concerto, how successfully do those large line arrays with multiple bass drivers reproduce the solo piano or violin during the solo passage, in terms of scale relative to the rest of the orchestra when it joins in?

It's been too long since I last heard any large line arrays for me to respond with my own definitive answer to this. I can only say that I was never bothered by things seeming too big, but I also may have been lost in the fascination of listening in itself.
 

Scott W

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
338
165
1,600
Texas
www.suprahifi.com
My YG Anatt III Sig/Pros are large speakers in a large room(17x22x9), and the room is completely treated. Size of instruments and performers are in my opinion spot on. For most small jazz music I am setting a few tables back from the front of the stage which is a perfect position for me. Vocals are a bit higher then straight ahead because of the height of my speakers, which are tilted forward. I like this presentation as I feel this is what I hear live if I am not in the “cheap seats”. DSCF2831.jpg
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
2,067
8
0
Dallas, Texas
Do those boxes connected to the speakers require 93 octane?

My YG Anatt III Sig/Pros are large speakers in a large room(17x22x9), and the room is completely treated. Size of instruments and performers are in my opinion spot on. For most small jazz music I am setting a few tables back from the front of the stage which is a perfect position for me. Vocals are a bit higher then straight ahead because of the height of my speakers, which are tilted forward. I like this presentation as I feel this is what I hear live if I am not in the “cheap seats”. View attachment 17694
 

Scott W

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
338
165
1,600
Texas
www.suprahifi.com

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,669
10,942
3,515
USA
My YG Anatt III Sig/Pros are large speakers in a large room(17x22x9), and the room is completely treated. Size of instruments and performers are in my opinion spot on. For most small jazz music I am setting a few tables back from the front of the stage which is a perfect position for me. Vocals are a bit higher then straight ahead because of the height of my speakers, which are tilted forward. I like this presentation as I feel this is what I hear live if I am not in the “cheap seats”.

Scott, what happens to scale and image when you adjust the dials on those MIT speaker cable network boxes, while leaving everything else the same?
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing