NHB-458 monoblock power amplifier

[Roysen]

What are you planning on using for AC outlets?

I use 32A industrial wall outlets from the Norwegian manufacturer Phillip Hauge (the same manufacturer provides IEC on Boulder's amplifiers): http://www.philiphauge.no/ProductDetail.aspx?prd_id=44905

Thanks,
Roysen

 

[Roysen]

Thanks a lot for this link. I never heard about this manufacturer, but it seems very well engineered and looks gorgeous - just what I want for my room!
For some time I thought about having a turntable plinth manufactured from Panzerholz, but never got the time to go on with the project . (OK, as I love my Forsell, the motivation was not very strong).

Do you know that Panzerholz is used for shielding from neutrons in nuclear research and bullet shields? Our equipment will be well protected!

Hi, yes I knew. Panzerholz is so dense it is a wood that will not float on water. The Audio Physic Medea Mk.II speakers I have here have cabinets made from Panzerholz.

Thanks,
Roysen

 

[LL21]

Yes, pictures will be posted with experiences and impressions when the components are arriving. As for the question if I am building showrooms, the answer is mostly "no" but also partly "yes".

I am a dealer, but I am choosing components for my setups without regard for the brands we have. I have had components and speakers for three setups here for a few years already, but only possibility to play in the livingroom. There have been components stored all over the house where I have moved them in and out of the system when I wanted to do a change. This has not been an optimal solution but possible since the speakers have been of a size where I could easily move them around on my own.

The plan has been to make it three different systems in three different rooms of the house for quite a while. However to be able to move the systems into their seperate rooms we needed to make some structural changes to the house. This has not been possible because we have rented the house up until now. It has been decided a long time ago that we will buy the house but due to some personal details, the previous owners have delayed the selling process.

While time has passed during the rentalperiod my plans for the three systems have evolved and upgrades have been made in such a way that there is no way we can find space and structural support on the upper floor to accomodate how I now want the systems. Because of this we have thrown away the plan to find space for all three systems inside the house. Instead we have knocked down a wall in the main living room to be able to accomodate one system there. Additionally we will build a seperate building/studio on our property with just one room (8 x 10 meters and 4 meter height). This studio will have one system on each long wall with a seating group between. The studio will be built and planned by the Swedish acoustics company Svanå Miljøteknik which are the original company behind the US company Performance Acoustic Labs. The building process will start in March/April next year.

The reason for wanting three systems started several years ago. I wanted two systems. One based on tube electronics and one based on solid state electronics. I wanted the best of both worlds with as few compromises as possible. The third system became a reality when my girlfriend didn't want what she considered ugly or monster sized speakers in the living room while still wanting to have a system there where she could listen to her music and where we could play music for social purposes while entertaining non-audiophile guests. I would of course also be listening to this third system quite a lot in this scenario, so I wanted this third system to be as equally short of compromises as the two others. Something else would just be a source of irritation.

The idea of using this purposebuilt studio as a showroom is something we have thought about. My property is 45 kilometers from Oslo centre where our shop is located. This might not be far by US standards but by our standards it means no customers from the city would normally find its way out here. So my studio will be used for special invitation events and special demonstrations for customers who want to listen in more optimal sutrroundings than we can provide in our store. The daily systems would then be moved out of the way on such occations.

The systems I am planning are like this:

LIVING ROOM SYSTEM
CD-Source: MBL 1621A & MBL 1611F - ByBee Stealth
SACD-Source: Soulution Audio 745 - Nordost Thor + Nordost Quantum Q4
DVD-Audio-Source: Metronome Technologie Kalista Ultimate SE & APL HiFi NWO-Master & GTE Audio Trinity DAC Mk.II - Absolare ByBee Purifier
Music Server: Burmester 111 & Burmester 069 - Burmester 948
Turntable: Clearaudio Statement Turntable & Clearaudio Statement TT-1 Tonearm & Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement - Synergistic Research PowerCell 10 SE Mk.III
Phono Preamplifier: Qualia Indigo Reference Phono Preamplifier - McIntosh MPC-1500
Preamplifier: Lyra Connoisseur 3.0 - Trafomatic Audio Experience 3000
Poweramplifier (bass): darTZeel NHB-458
Poweramplifier (midrange/tweeter): Dynaudio Arbiter
Ground conditioner: 3x Granite Audio Ground Zero Model 502
Loudspeakers: Magico Q7
Subwoofers: 2x Burmester S8

TUBE-BASED SYSTEM:
CD-Source: Zanden Audio Model 2000P & Zanden Audio Model 5000S - 2x Isoclean 3030G IV & Isoclean 80A3
SACD-Source: CH Precision D1 & CH Precision C1 - Combak Harmonix Reimyo ALS-777
DVD-Audio-Source: Constellation Audio Sirius - Accuphase PS-1220
Music Server: AudioNec SDV4-Ory & MSB Technology Universal Media Transport w/MSB Technology Platinum Power Base & MSB Technology Diamond DAC IV w/FemtoSecond Galaxy Clock, w/Diamond Platinum Power Base - Gigawatt PC-4
Turntable: Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn & Continuum Audio Labs Castellon & Continuum Audio Labs Cobra & Koetsu Coralstone Platinum w/Diamond cantilever - Angstrom Research Reference 4HC
Phono Preamplifier: Constellation Audio Orion - Isotek Super Titan
Preamplifier: Tube Research Labs Platinum GTR Preamplifier SE - Wavac Audio AC-1
Active Three-Way Crossover: Tidal Audio T2-LPX - Walker Audio Velocitor
Poweramplifier (bass): Krell Master Reference Amplifiers
Poweramplifier (midbass): Tube Research Labs Platinum GTR 800 40th Anniversary Edition
Poweramplifier (upper midrange/tweeter): Tidal Audios Upcoming Reference Mono Amplifiers
Ground conditioner: SMc Audio Interocitor One - Silver Circle Audio Pure Power One 5.0 SE
Loudspeakers: Tidal Audio T2 (Upcoming new topmodel loudspeaker from Tidal Audio)

SOLID STATE-BASED SYSTEM:
CD-Source: Wadia 971 & Wadia & 931 2x Wadia 922 (GNSC Statement modified) - Shunyata Research Hydra Triton
SACD-Source: Esoteric P-01VU & Esoteric G-01 & 2x Esoteric D-01VU - HMS Elektronik Energia Definitiva
DVD-Audio-Source: Goldmund Eidos Reference & Goldmund Mimesis 20H - Audience aR12-TS
Music Server: Audeeva Conbrio & 4-box dCS Vivaldi combination - PS Audio P10 Powerplant
Turntable: Rockport Technologies System III Sirius & Lyra Olympos - Running Springs Audio Dmitri
Phono Preamplifier: FM Acoustics Resolution Series 223 - Audio Magic Oracle Liquid Air
Preamplifier: FM Acoustics Resolution Series 268 - Tripoint Audio Spartan
Active Crossovers: Rockport Technologies Arrakis 2 Crossover & 2x Wilson Audio The Controller - Jena Labs Sequoia
Poweramplifier (subwoofers): Sovereign Audio THE SOVEREIGN
Poweramplifier (bass): Goldmund Telos 3500
Poweramplifier (midbass/midrange/tweeter): FM Acoustics Resolution Series 118
Ground conditioner: Tripoint Audio Troy - True Life Audio High Power AC Conditioner
Loudspeaker: Rockport Technologies Arrakis 2
Subwoofers: 2x Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer

PS! I strongly believe there are no universal digital solutions which are best or equally good on all source material. Because of this I want dedicated playback sources for each digital disc based format (Redbook PCM (CD), DSD (SACD) and hi-res PCM (DVD-Audio)).

Hi Roysen,

I admit i have come back to your list more than a few times. I am curious...have you assembled these pieces for each system based on believing they are not only individually some of the world's best pieces...but also work well together within a system? You have created a Living Room System, an all-Tube System and an all Solid State-System...thus there is some amount of 'system synergy' here.

I am curious because i would appreciate your thoughts on Zanden digital and Isotek. Rockpoint and FM/Goldmund....particularly as Andy Payor seems to use Gryphon. Thanks!!

 

[Roysen]

Hi Lloydlee,

I will answer here even though we are a bit off topic. First of all I would like to say that I have changed the description since I first posted. The first change was to add the dedicated power conditioners to each component. The second change was done because I orignially had MBL 1622A and 1611F set up as the high resolution PCM source. Well the 1622A is now discontinued and it was sold only in very limited numbers. Secondly it was connected to the 1611F DAC through a modified HDMI interface. The MBL 1611F DAC can no longer be delivered with this input. So I will have a real hard time finding a 1622A and secondly I will not be able to upgrade the 1611F with an input to connect to a 1622A. The MBL combination is because of this no longer one of the high resolution PCM sources. The third reason is that the planned Soulution music server is delayed and it seems unsure if the product will become reality. So I changed around a little on the sources. The MBL combination ended up as a redbook source, the Soulution 745 became a DSD source, the Metronome/GTE Audio combination became a high resolution PCM source with the addition of the APL NWO-Master and the AudioNec Ory music server in combination with MSB Technology's best combination became a Music Server. The dCS Vivaldi combination replaced the dCS Scarlatti with the Audeeva Conbrio as a Music Server. The Orpheus Labs Privelige combination is no longer in my plans. I have also added a ground conditiong solution to each system with its dedicated power conditioner.

As you probably understand I don't have these complete systems here yet. They are my planned systems. I have parts of them here now. These plans evolve as new components and loudspeakers are released. For instance I am pretty sure the future will bring either a new version of the Arrakis or a completely new top model from Rockport Technologies because Andy Payer has started designing his own drivers and not just the deaphragms like on the speakers of the Arrakis generation. I am sure he wants to introduce a new top model with his own drivers soon.

The system plans are put together partly based on personal experience and partly based on what I have learned from others personal experience. That can be fellow audiophiles I trust or reviewers I think I know pretty well after having read their reviews for years.

In terms of your particular questions - Zanden digial w/Isoclean (I assume you don't mean Isotek since the power conditiong for the Zanden digital combination is planned to be Isoclean). This plan was not based on personal experience but because of the review in 6moons and because of the experience I learned from Fred Nadel of US dealer Pure Audio. He is a dealer of Zanden Audio and Isoclean.

I know Any Payor prefers Gryphon for his speakers but having heard the Soultion and Rockport Technologies Altair combination at a local hifi show, I have made up my mind that I prefer something faster and more neutral with the Rockport speakers than the Gryphon. I think that synergy sounds better to my ears than the Rockport Gryphon combination. The Rockports tonal characters leans slightly to the warm side (not as much as Wilson's speakers I would say) but certainly less than the Magico speakers. From my perspective the combination of the slightly warm Gryphon with the slightly warm Rockports becomes a little too much. At the same time I think that the Rockport speakers are one of the few I have heard able to show what a fast wide bandwith speaker like the Solution can do with dynamics and high frequency reproduction. To my ears Goldmund is even slightly better than the Soulution in this regard. I have no experience with the FM Acoustics Resolution Series 118 what so ever. It was chosen because I think FMA amplifiers are the best SS amplifiers in the world and wanted to have them in my system. This particular model is supposed to be their best ever. It could be however that I find that the FMA don't match well with Rockport and Goldmund but then I will have to move around some of the other amplifiers I have to find something that is a better match. This advantage is something I will have with all of these components available.

Kind reards,
Roysen

 

[LL21]

Thanks Roysen! Very good to know...i will speak with my local dealer about Isoclean (i have read good things about it). I am starting to investing MSB a bit more...sounds like an interesting digital option as well.

 

[asiufy]

108 was using transformers on the balanced inputs, 458 is using a translator circuit which converts the balanced input to unbalanced.
458 is built unbalanced inside - when choosing 32dB gain on the front and balanced input - its actually only 26dB.

This is a loaner 458 set, so I must be very careful not to blow it - I've connected it to 268 with Zensati Seraphim.
I'm used to protection on FMA - can't hear it - it's not in the signal path - why can't dartzeel do it while FMA can?

Because FMA is not as good as darTZeel???

Based on your postings, I already know the outcome of your "tests"...

For the record, the 108 amp is also very particular, with the same basic warnings. Never had a problem with mine, after all, I know what I'm doing...

 

[jtinn]

I've listened to 458 with the big Kharma speakers - 458 don't like low impedance speakers. it had also problems with Magico Q5.

With all respect, I think you are generalizing too much. Low impedance or nominal 1 ohm speakers? A nominal 1 Ohm speaker is ridiculous and I cannot understand who would ever build a speaker like that. To be clear, the 458 can handle anything above a nominal 1 ohm load (2+ ohms).

Please tell me which amp "likes" 1 ohm speakers?

Also, it has no problems driving the Magico Q5. I have a customer using that very combination.

 

[wizard]

With all respect, I think you are generalizing too much. Low impedance or nominal 1 ohm speakers? A nominal 1 Ohm speaker is ridiculous and I cannot understand who would ever build a speaker like that. To be clear, the 458 can handle anything above a nominal 1 ohm load (2+ ohms).

Please tell me which amp "likes" 1 ohm speakers?

Also, it has no problems driving the Magico Q5. I have a customer using that very combination.

The Kharma Exq. Extreme minimum impedance is 2 ohm, Q5 around 2,5 ohms and 84dB sensitivity.
Also my friend says the Q5 sound is little loose in the bass with the 458.

 

[Thf99]

I've listened to 458 with the big Kharma speakers - 458 don't like low impedance speakers. it had also problems with Magico Q5.
The sound is loose/weak in the bass, sound isn't neutral - on the romantic/warm side - sound quality bass 90, mid/treble 125.

Others I've tested
Gryphon Antileon 110, Colosseum 120 and Mephisto Solo 135-140.
FMA 411II 100, 711II 120, 115 135.
Boulder 2060 115 and 2050 120.
Trinity II pre/dac + amps 135-140.
Tidal Impulse 120.

Preamps
Gryphon Mirage 90 and Pandora 110.
Tidal Preos Line 108.
Boulder 2010 120.
FMA 255II 118 and 268 140.

I've read 3 reviews on the 458 - Hifi+, Hifi News and Stereophile - all say this is the best sound they have heard.
Hifi+ and Hifi News reviews are useless, because not a word about the system used.

Fremer used Wilson Maxx 3 - with easy impedance loadspeakers 458 can be one of the best amps out there, but not with speakers going below 3 ohms.
dartzeel is using the high impedance Evolution MM3 speakers in their listening room.

Wizard,
I'm not familiar with your scoring system. Can you elaborate on it? Is there a maximum score?

 

[asiufy]

I could see this outcome from miles away
The amp does 1400W peak in 4 ohms. Can an amp that does that really sound "loose/weak in the bass"?
If one wants to be a contrarian, that's fine. If one doesn't like what he heard, that's fine too. But finding fault where there's none is just not the way to go...



alexandre

 

[MylesBAstor]

I could see this outcome from miles away
The amp does 1400W peak in 4 ohms. Can an amp that does that really sound "loose/weak in the bass"?
If one wants to be a contrarian, that's fine. If one doesn't like what he heard, that's fine too. But finding fault where there's none is just not the way to go...



alexandre

Or maybe the problem doesn't lie with the amplifiers but somewhere else?

 

[A.wayne]

With all respect, I think you are generalizing too much. Low impedance or nominal 1 ohm speakers? A nominal 1 Ohm speaker is ridiculous and I cannot understand who would ever build a speaker like that. To be clear, the 458 can handle anything above a nominal 1 ohm load (2+ ohms).

Please tell me which amp "likes" 1 ohm speakers?

Also, it has no problems driving the Magico Q5. I have a customer using that very combination.

For the kind of copper Being laid out for these amplifiers , they better can drive a 1 ohm load . It does appear DZ has choosen to deliver high power into high impedances as oppose to low and if building a SOTA Speaker system it's very unlikely impedance will be above 3.5 ohm , 2ohm is very likely and exotics like ESL's and ribbons will have low impedances....

Now who builds a SOTA amp that have issues Driving 2 ohm loads with a 60 deg phase lag ...)

 

[A.wayne]

I could see this outcome from miles away
The amp does 1400W peak in 4 ohms. Can an amp that does that really sound "loose/weak in the bass"?
If one wants to be a contrarian, that's fine. If one doesn't like what he heard, that's fine too. But finding fault where there's none is just not the way to go...



alexandre

Has nothIng to do with power output , so yes it could !!!!

 

[audioarcher]

I would think most amps would have trouble driving Magico Q5's. When I heard them they were powered by the 300 wpc into 8 ohms Dan DiAugostino Momentum mono's and they were struggling. At roughly 90db the meters were swinging wildly and pegging out. This was in a medium size room.

The Dartzeel NHB-458 may fare better as it is rated a little higher in power.

Not every amp is going to be the best match for every speaker no matter how expensive the amp is.

 

[audioarcher]

From Sterophile and Hifi News measurements of 458.

Continuous power output with 1% distortion in 8/4/2/1 ohms.
530/900/1025/276 watts.

Distortion at 0,5% - now the power supply begins to struggle in 2 ohms.
500/850/750 watts.

Distortion at 0,2% - big problem in 2 ohm.
450/750/100 watts.

Big transistor amps shouldn't have problems with low distortion and low impedance's today.

By those specs I would not use the NHB-458 on speakers that dip below 4 ohms. As long as you're aware of this I don't see what the problem is.

One could also argue that speakers that present that tough of a load are a flawed design. I think you just have to be careful to match the right amp to the speaker your using.

 

[A.wayne]

In my books its a big THUD ..........on low impedance speakers...............!!!

I looked at the stereophile test results, its worst than whats posted by Wizard, the distortion elbow starts at 500watts into 2 ohm , into a 2 ohm load with a 60deg phase angle, low sensitivity , furrrrgit about it, i would expect it to sound bad, weak , et al .... the distortion elbow starts at 700 into 4 ohms, based on the distortion spectra, this model amp would have its best sonic characteristics at 2 ohm, below 50 watts output.

So if you had high sensitivity speakers that were low impedance, your opinion would be different ...


I guess i would classify this as another amplifier targeted @ the 93db/w/m/ 8 ohm speaker crowd ....

 

[FrantzM]

In my books its a big THUD ..........I Have no compassion for toy amplifiers...............

Strong statements.. Have you heard this amp? So by the measurements at 2 ohms ... you can infer it is a thud... Interesting ...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In my books its a big THUD ..........I Have no compassion for toy amplifiers...............

i have no compassion for amps that sound like arc welders. or speakers that need arc welders pretending to be amplifiers.

my comment is a generalization, just like yours. of course, i've never been a fan of hard to drive speakers because of how they sound, not because they are hard to drive. and i've never been a fan of brute strength amps, again, becuase of how they sound, not because they are brute strength amps.

i will say that class D amps do great on the deep bass, better than any conventionally designed amps. and ideally you have the best sounding topography on the upper frequencies as possible and the best possible amplifier topography for the deep bass also. so in that case, bring on all the power you can muster.

 

[A.wayne]

So are we inversely proportional or Iso-diametrically opposed .... ?


My statement was not a generalization , if it is producing less power into 2 than 8 ohm its a thud ... for me, that's not a generalization, it's a specific requirement and shows a bad PSU design , of course my opinion, you can ask other engineers their thoughts ..


For the record, i have found the opposite, amplifiers with poor or inadequate PSU designs tend to have poor sonic's vs those with over built PSU, technically speaker you are listening to the PSU when you fire up any amplfier, the rest of the amplifier is along for the ride .

Looking at the test results Wizards outcome was academic ..

Regards,

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So are we inversely proportional or Iso-diametrically opposed .... ?

my guess is that were we to listen together to real world systems with these amps and speakers of our own choosing we would agree on most things. but this is the world wide web so we see it differently.