New Kronos review!

[Detlof]

How does a turntable / arm / cartridge combination perform this rather nest trick of dampening of record surface anomalies (pops & tics) without sacrificing music details?

Good question indeed, because at least as I can make out, microdetails were all there. But then, it is not a dampening per se, because where it so, I would think, that all sound at this particular frequency, wherein those ticks from a good scratch would occur, should be attenuated. But to my ear that does not happen, because the musical flow seems to be all there.
All the same though, I think the question is valid and I have no idea by what means this could be achieved. Possibly there is a dampening, and since generally we concentrate on the music, we just tend to ignore it. i truly have no idea. All i can say, that through the Techdas the music seems to be all there and surface noise in whatever form seems to be presented not so much within the musical plane, but somehow separate from it.

 

[Detlof]

Detlof, how do you prefer these to your Goldmund Reference?

Bonzo, I purposely avoided mentioning the Goldmund. Reason being, arm and the tt per se were so extensively modded, that the sound is completely different now from Reverchon's original model. Also the Goldmund is hooked up to a different chain, using the Boulder, which Mikey loved so much, and the Wavac as preamp. This combo has a fullness of sound closer to that of the Kronos fed into an all Lamm frontend, but it is more "hifi" to me and hence less involving .

 

[asiufy]

How big is the difference between Sparta and this? Asiufy, we both like Kronos, Avantgarde, Koetsu...you really should swap your dac to Lampi

Bonzo,

I haven't had enough time with the Sparta to know it well, so I won't comment. But I was very impressed with it every time I heard it at shows, and there are many very happy owners out there.

As for the "Lampi", I believe I've mentioned this before. I did my research on the product and the brand, and decided not to be associated with it. It is simply not a product I can truly, honestly sell, as I have to trust the manufacturer (and his beliefs) in order to properly represent it.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo,

I haven't had enough time with the Sparta to know it well, so I won't comment. But I was very impressed with it every time I heard it at shows, and there are many very happy owners out there.

As for the "Lampi", I believe I've mentioned this before. I did my research on the product and the brand, and decided not to be associated with it. It is simply not a product I can truly, honestly sell, as I have to trust the manufacturer (and his beliefs) in order to properly represent it.

Hi Alex, that was a joke since you and I have been around about Lampi and MSB

 

[asiufy]

bonzo,

Ah, cool, I didn't detect the irony, sorry

Anyway, I believe one of the big London dealers has the Kronos in there, so you could go and have a look for yourself, if you're at all interested in turntables!



cheers,
alex

 

[PeterA]

I own both. Bought both of them used and set them up myself. The Kronos with a SME V12 and the AFO with the Graham Elite. Both arms are with the Clearaudio GF, the one on the AFO not yet broken in, so a real comparison is not possible.
All the same, I find it impossible to say which combination is " better ", because I like the sound of both. More of that later though. I heartlily dislike the use of words like better here, because what is the reference? Better according to what? I think, when we use that word or similar, some point of reference should be given.
That said, l find that in my rig, compared to the sound of the AFO, the Kronos sounds richer, more full bodied, more fleshed out. Often I find myself turning down the volume, when listening to the same piece, which was on the Techdas before, because the rendering of the Kronos seemed louder. As I had noted, the cart here is fully broken in. Stability of the Kronos is first class. Long drawn out notes or decays on violin or piano are absolutely stable.
(I am cursed with absolute pitch )
Same with the Techdas of course. The absence of spurious noise is uncanny. Tics and pops are somehow moved unto another plane, something the Kronos cannot do as well.
Listening to the AFO with material I know well, I find that the entire information is there, nothing missing to my ears, before a background of a silence, which lets me think of good digital. Sometimes I find the sound a tad dry, but then this cart has only few hours on its back. When I take the same LP over to the Kronos Ltd, I get the same information, no new mikrodetail added, I find, but the whole presentation as if painted with a bigger brush. The soudstage moves forward, but with the same fairly good definition as with the Techdas before.
From what I have described, one would expect, that the Kronos gives more bloom on instruments. Not so, here I find the AFO a little closer to when I listen to a real violin for example, perhaps because of this incredible silent background, which the Kronos cannot match.
I like both setups, find none " better ", simply very different.
With the one Music is beautifully rendered in say a hall with good reverb and you sit close to the music, with the other, you are placed a few rows more back snd the hall seems a tad dry. Wonder what the Techdas combo will sound like, when the cart is fully broken in.

Detlof, thank you for this great comparison. I wonder how much of the difference you are hearing has to do with the differences between the SME V12 and the Graham Elite arm. I once directly compared the SME V to the V12 in my system and found that one of the main differences was the fuller, more lush sound of the V12. It was just as detailed but presented the music in a smoother and more natural manner with what I think was slightly cleaner highs due to the reportedly less tracking distortion resulting from the longer length. I think I heard the Graham Elite in Rockitman's system, but I could not separate it sound in the otherwise unfamiliar system. I presume the Graham is very different sounding from an SME, partly because of the bearing type.

Do you have the same tonearm cable on both systems? If so, this might also explain some of the differences. It might be an interesting exercise to switch the two arms once the newer cartridge is broken in and see if those sonic attributes change somewhat. I have heard the TechDas once in Rockitman's system. It is indeed an ultra quite turntable and seemed to get very close to the CD silence that the designer was trying to achieve. I have also heard the Kronos Pro Ltd. in my good friend MadFloyd's system. It made a dramatic improvement over his TW Akustics turntable and elevated the sound of his system to an incredible level.

Finally, I wonder if you adjust VTA for different LPs. My friends probably think I sound like a broken record, but I have found that slight changes can make the sound very different, so I adjust this for different LPs. If you play the same record on these two turntables, but the SRA is slightly different, that may too contribute to some of the differences you are hearing.

It seems that both of these tables are superb. There are differences in features and of course price and I think the ultimate sound will depend most on how the owner decides to combine these excellent designs with particular arms and cartridges.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . To me , at least it is better than the ridiculous video review who based his conclusion on listening to 3 different syst at 3 different place & come to the conclusion that it's the most dynamic TT in the world - that is certainly a bought review . . . . .

+1

 

[MadFloyd]

detlof, thank you for posting the comparisons, it was very interesting. May I ask what cartridges you're using?

Also wondering if you have ever been tempted to try the Black Beauty arm on the Kronos. I ask because, as an owner, I would like to know how it compares to the SME or other arms.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

detlof, thank you for posting the comparisons, it was very interesting. May I ask what cartridges you're using?

Also wondering if you have ever been tempted to try the Black Beauty arm on the Kronos. I ask because, as an owner, I would like to know how it compares to the SME or other arms.

How is your Kronos vs the digital rig, Mad Floyd?

 

[Steve Williams]

I am a newbie when it comes to making observations about turntables but I can confirm what Christian and Detlof have said about the AFO as in my system it is dead quiet. By way of substantiating this last week I got a call from Philip I'Hanlon (member here) who always presents his well put together annual demo disk at CES. Philip is the US Distributor of many lines, Luxman included. He wanted to come over to my house for an afternoon of needle drops as possible candidates for his demo disk. Philip commented to me the AFO is the quietest table he has ever heard as well saying that his Luxman turntable doesn't even come close. Hearing these needle drops played back in DSD there were no ticks or pops or anything to her heard other than music

 

[asiufy]

It seems like Kronos is picking up some momentum !

From Louis Desjardins (the designer):

2015 in review...
TURNTABLE OF THE YEAR. ..HIFI+
PRODUCT OF THE YEAR ... AV SHOWROOMS
PRODUCT OF THE YEAR ... POSITIVE FEEDBACK
BEST SOUND CES 2015 ... AV SHOWROOMS
BEST SOUND APOXIA 2015 ... AV SHOWROOMS
BEST SOUND NEWPORT 2015 ... AV SHOWROOMS
BEST SOUND NEWPORT 2015 ... POSITIVE FEEDBACK
BEST SOUND RMAF 2015 ... AV SHOWROOMS
BEST SOUND RMAF 2015 ... POSITIVE FEEDBACK
BEST SOUND MALAYSIA SHOW
BEST SOUND POLAND SHOW
BEST SOUND ... MUNICH HIGH END 2015
OTHER BEST SOUNDS AROUND THE WORLD
REVIEW SPARTA POSITIVE FEEDBACK. ..MARSHALL NACK BUYS THE REVIEW UNIT
REVIEW SPARTA ABSOLUTE SOUND... GREG WEAVER BUYS THE REVIEW UNIT
REVIEW PRO MONO STEREO...DANON BUYS UNIT AND PREFERS KRONOS OVER AF1 ANS CLEARAUDIO STATEMENT
OTHER REVIEWS IN ANALOGUE JAPAN, LP GERMANY, HIFI+ ENGLAND, ANALOG AND RECORDING GERMANY, ENJOY THE MUSIC...UNANIMOUS PRAISE
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR CONTINUED SUPPORT ???


Steve, I love doing needle drops I wish I had the Grimm ADC that Philip has, though! I'm still using the Bruce Brown-modded Korg, but it does create some amazing 2xDSD files!

 

[audioblazer]

I cringed when I read it's a few notches above AFO & it's sounded like reel to reel ??? Maybe I should get the local distributor to bring it to my place & compare to my AFO & Studer A80 & see whether it's a few notches above or actually below AFO & whether it's actually reel to reel like in performance . Will ensure unbiased reporting because I m not buying it & it will be appraise by a few audiophile

 

[bonzo75]

Just heard, on acapella violon, with audio note IO gold cart, Graham phantom super extreme whatever arm, and diy LCR phono. Pretty awesome. Small room, but the texture and depth and soundstage is
Excellent in comparison to the nagra CD player

 

[Detlof]

Detlof, thank you for this great comparison. I wonder how much of the difference you are hearing has to do with the differences between the SME V12 and the Graham Elite arm. I once directly compared the SME V to the V12 in my system and found that one of the main differences was the fuller, more lush sound of the V12. It was just as detailed but presented the music in a smoother and more natural manner with what I think was slightly cleaner highs due to the reportedly less tracking distortion resulting from the longer length. I think I heard the Graham Elite in Rockitman's system, but I could not separate it sound in the otherwise unfamiliar system. I presume the Graham is very different sounding from an SME, partly because of the bearing type.

Do you have the same tonearm cable on both systems? If so, this might also explain some of the differences. It might be an interesting exercise to switch the two arms once the newer cartridge is broken in and see if those sonic attributes change somewhat. I have heard the TechDas once in Rockitman's system. It is indeed an ultra quite turntable and seemed to get very close to the CD silence that the designer was trying to achieve. I have also heard the Kronos Pro Ltd. in my good friend MadFloyd's system. It made a dramatic improvement over his TW Akustics turntable and elevated the sound of his system to an incredible level.

Finally, I wonder if you adjust VTA for different LPs. My friends probably think I sound like a broken record, but I have found that slight changes can make the sound very different, so I adjust this for different LPs. If you play the same record on these two turntables, but the SRA is slightly different, that may too contribute to some of the differences you are hearing.

It seems that both of these tables are superb. There are differences in features and of course price and I think the ultimate sound will depend most on how the owner decides to combine these excellent designs with particular arms and cartridges.

Peter,

You see me in full agreement with your comments. Having relied solely on my Godmund with its arm until I found and bought those two TT in 2015 I had no experience with either the SME or the Graham, so I find what you say about the SME very interesting. My Goldmund arm was modded in this way, that I could change VTA on the fly from my listening position, but I used this option only sparingly, because I found the Goldfinger fairly forgiving. i use it with the Graham on occasion.
Yes, I forgot to mention the phono cables: With the Kronos I use the top of the line Purist and with the Techdas a no name brand, which a close friend of mine makes in his spare time. They help with the soundstage and to my ears are very neutral, when used in other configurations. As you say, it would be an interesting exercise to switch arms et al and listen. I might do that once the cart is broken in and I have gathered enough courage. Basically, once I am fairly content with what I hear, I try to as little critical listening as possible, but this would indeed be a worthwhile exercise.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Guys, I think we should ignore all comments as to "what's best" despite the name of this forum.
Analog more than digital has any number of flavours that work together in any number of recipes created by designers.
It was hard enough in the good old days of analog dominance to compare tt's side by side, w/identical arms/carts/phonos/ancilliary rigs etc.
Now, it's nigh on impossible.
So, unless this new pretender can be absolutely set up w/the same gear as the AF1, which it can't, I just see the result of this shootout as worse than useless.
What IS interesting is bringing news to us of these tt's, and a subjective sound report.
If the Kronos exists to be reviewed by the potential customer, than a service is done by highlighting it's plus points. Not in saying whether it purports to actually be better than any current SOTA..

 

[Detlof]

detlof, thank you for posting the comparisons, it was very interesting. May I ask what cartridges you're using?

Also wondering if you have ever been tempted to try the Black Beauty arm on the Kronos. I ask because, as an owner, I would like to know how it compares to the SME or other arms.

I use the Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement on both. The Techdas came with the Graham and the Kronos with a Reed, which I later exchanged for the SME. I did not know of the existence of the Black B. At the time, but for the AFO I have Marc Gomes Sat on order.
After that my audio budget is bust and I will live with what I have.

 

[Detlof]

Guys, I think we should ignore all comments as to "what's best" despite the name of this forum.
Analog more than digital has any number of flavours that work together in any number of recipes created by designers.
It was hard enough in the good old days of analog dominance to compare tt's side by side, w/identical arms/carts/phonos/ancilliary rigs etc.
Now, it's nigh on impossible.
So, unless this new pretender can be absolutely set up w/the same gear as the AF1, which it can't, I just see the result of this shootout as worse than useless.
What IS interesting is bringing news to us of these tt's, and a subjective sound report.
If the Kronos exists to be reviewed by the potential customer, than a service is done by highlighting it's plus points. Not in saying whether it purports to actually be better than any current SOTA..

+1

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yep, I wonder had this forum been called instead "What's not necessarily best, but actually really good, and you should consider it too", would it have got us all contributing? LOL

 

[asiufy]

Guys, I think we should ignore all comments as to "what's best" despite the name of this forum.
Analog more than digital has any number of flavours that work together in any number of recipes created by designers.
It was hard enough in the good old days of analog dominance to compare tt's side by side, w/identical arms/carts/phonos/ancilliary rigs etc.
Now, it's nigh on impossible.
So, unless this new pretender can be absolutely set up w/the same gear as the AF1, which it can't, I just see the result of this shootout as worse than useless.
What IS interesting is bringing news to us of these tt's, and a subjective sound report.
If the Kronos exists to be reviewed by the potential customer, than a service is done by highlighting it's plus points. Not in saying whether it purports to actually be better than any current SOTA..

Hi!

Have you read the review?

"Louis Desjardins was on hand to assist in the transfer of the Vertere Reference tonearm together with the attached TriangleArt Apollo MC cartridge from my TechDas Air Force One to the Kronos Pro Ltd turntable. I wanted the listening of the Kronos Pro Ltd to be on equal footing with that of the TechDas Air Force One."

So, it's not only possible to have the same set up, the reviewer actually did it.
But I have to say that this, like any other review, is just one man's findings. I know I've disagreed with my fair share of reviews, so I totally understand people who do not agree with this guy's opinion/review. You can disagree with it, but please don't find fault (or worse, malice) where there's likely none.

 

[number95]

Yes, I forgot to mention the phono cables: With the Kronos I use the top of the line Purist and with the Techdas a no name brand, which a close friend of mine makes in his spare time. They help with the soundstage and to my ears are very neutral, when used in other configurations. As you say, it would be an interesting exercise to switch arms et al and listen. I might do that once the cart is broken in and I have gathered enough courage. Basically, once I am fairly content with what I hear, I try to as little critical listening as possible, but this would indeed be a worthwhile exercise.

Tonearm and phono cables are crucial to judge final performance of any tt/tonearm/cartridge combo.