New forum created for subjectivist members

[Johnny Vinyl]

This is the sign on the door:

"What's Best Forum (WBF Forum)

The friendliest place to find the best in audio, video, music, movies, television, health, sports and much more!"

This is what it says before you login/register:


"Welcome to What's Best Forum! Please consider joining our friendly and helpful community of enthusiasts where we discuss the best in audio and video to everything else we love from food to movies and music. We are proud of the professional conduct of our membership and strict moderation of the same, combined with high level of technical content shared by our members. If you want to learn and have fun doing it, or share what you know about our favorite hobbies without fear of antagonism, WBF forum is for you."

That seems to have not worked out so well. Sadly.

 

[spazmatron]

This is the sign on the door:

"What's Best Forum (WBF Forum)

The friendliest place to find the best in audio, video, music, movies, television, health, sports and much more!"

This is what it says before you login/register:


"Welcome to What's Best Forum! Please consider joining our friendly and helpful community of enthusiasts where we discuss the best in audio and video to everything else we love from food to movies and music. We are proud of the professional conduct of our membership and strict moderation of the same, combined with high level of technical content shared by our members. If you want to learn and have fun doing it, or share what you know about our favorite hobbies without fear of antagonism, WBF forum is for you."

you might laugh at me but mostly that's what we have! its only a few spats between members (no more than 4 guys in total) that's derailing things on the members side. the rest of its a management problem. we even have a post of pure negative crap in the music thread that's gone by without action. 'whats spinning tonight' is not a place to write a essay on why a artist is overrated! or have i missed something?

i think things are more or less light hearted, friendly and there seems to be a bond between folks. but its the few guys that are calling each other trolls and having spats all over the forum and getting away with it that's buggering it up. its not subtle, its not missunderstood humour or fun.. its plain unpleasantness.

really i know it seems like doom and gloom but its really not, we just need a few snippets of moderation for the guys being hostile with each other.

a few of us from all sorts of different backgrounds and audio philosophies have even managed to have a joke and some fun in these sorts of threads!

 

[amirm]

I will state that I have not once cursed at Amir.

How can you say that Lee? Here is an example:

I report a post where Tom had written this:

"Bob, I love's ya' bro' but the poetic acid trip talk has got to be condensed into something that normal folks can understand.

Can you provide the Cliff notes on your latest post please? Thank you sir.

Tom"

My note when reporting the post was: "Poetic acid trip? Is this how we talk in the forum Tom?"

Tom defends himself immediately:

Please stop reporting posts that do not need to be reported Amir. It's very childish. This is yet one more time that pressure is given to censure free speech. I thought you didn't want censure free speech Amir?

Black or white Amir? Grey areas are open to too much confusion and you can not have it both ways to suit your current agenda.

No action.

Tom

Steve opines this way:

Agreed

Petty,petty and truly childish

No action required

And then we get to your response:

It's his simplest means to harass us. He didn't seem to mind when Tim spoke poorly of audiophiles or DaveC calling Goldmund "elitist douchebags".

The TOS are like the Constitution. They are "laws" that may constantly be subjected to interpretation for INTENT of the law and the good of its constituents. Harmless repartee, etc is exactly that. The TOS, in higher application, prevents the nasty and unproductive exchanges. Folks like it when members give & take a bit of guff, it makes us comfortable as among friends. Friends feel closer when they can poke fun at each other.

We are the final arbiters of when someone crosses the line, just as we are when in person. We determine when someone's attitude/behavior is detrimental to the forum. If disruption of the forum were the sole criteria, then Bob (with his endless written acid trips) would be gone. As would Tim, with his constant belittlement of audiophiles. For every case cited on one "side", an example may be presented on the other.

This is pointless crap.

Lee

What word should I use when you call my opinion "crap?" Who here knows you as a person who addresses a site co-founder this way? You said what again? Never cursed me?

Steve caps the thread and that was that:

IMO it is nothing but smoke and mirrors as a way of deflecting from his insecurity and wrong doing as well his trying to infuse a poison such as his into what should be totally neutral involvement of the Admin Team. By his own inability to be a part of the admin team he feels he can micromanage us and it just isn't going to happen

This is the type of stuff that Drove ddk crazy and resulted in ddk leaving the forum. These are grown men who don't appreciate being yelled at and can work out their differences. It is indeed harmless repartee. He continues to drive out members by stupid crap like this.

No Action Required

Lee, are you proud of your conduct and that of your partners here? To Greg's point, would any of you dare showing this to your wife and loved ones? Is this what you are defending as righteous and good?

What was my crime anyway? Making sure you don't call someone to be on drugs? That is what justified you all piling on like this? Is there a conscious that goes along with these posts that says, "OK, do we need to dump on Amir all the time like this?" Or "do we not need to offer respect to everyone whether we like what they post or not?"

No action required. Right....

 

[BlueFox]

really i know it seems like doom and gloom but its really not, we just need a few snippets of moderation for the guys being hostile with each other.

I agree with this. Put a stop to those who keep implying people are delusional because they hear a difference with a cable or gear change, challenging them to an A/B test, and wanting measurements for everything, and this place will be back on track. Hopefully, at some point the good members who have gotten fed up with the nonsense will come back.

 

[amirm]

you might laugh at me but mostly that's what we have!

Laugh? No way. You speak the absolute truth. So much good is happening on the forum. So much knowledge exchanged. So much friendship created. I know that is for sure true for me.

 

[spazmatron]

The TOS are like the Constitution. They are "laws" that may constantly be subjected to interpretation for INTENT of the law and the good of its constituents. Harmless repartee, etc is exactly that. The TOS, in higher application, prevents the nasty and unproductive exchanges. Folks like it when members give & take a bit of guff, it makes us comfortable as among friends. Friends feel closer when they can poke fun at each other.


WISE WORDS!!! thank you Lee, written some time ago maybe but its the only sense to come out of managment for some time. this is how it is period!

Tom is conservative in his views on posting content, he won't like bob's (acid trips) he won't much like me either but he is part of a diverse management team, we need all of you. you can't go after Lee i dont see the wrong in his post highlighted. i think its been missinturpritated amir.

 

[treitz3]

Amir, it seems that all you want to do is fight. Everyday about everything. I actually posted a proposal I thought to be a win, win proposal to all sides.

Yet all you do is come back and shame the ones who have served the forum for years while you sat back doing nothing. Is this what you consider professional? The forum worked and worked well until 8-9 months ago. I would invite you to make a poll, since you have most likely disabled this function for me. Ask the membership if the forum ran smoothly prior to 8-9 months ago or whether the forum is running smoother since you decided to join in on the management side of things.

Tom

 

[Don Hills]

I would guess the average member could care less about subjectivist vs objectivist.

You could do better than guessing by running a poll - or would that be too objectivist for you?

 

[NorthStar]

Does anybody have the slightest idea of what useful purpose this thread is supposed to serve because I don't

The book of revelations...as it's being written in the now...the book of deeper reflections and changes...all for the best...with time.
It starts with everyone including our two main leaders and their associates...the entire chain.

Time is on our side...a stronger and better forum will come out of this. ...It's not the end of the world...it's the start of a new beginning...slowly but surely/solidly.

One's view, one's firm believe, one's life philosophy...one's free choice. ...One for all and all for one...WBF.

_____

? "Welcome to What's Best Forum! Please consider joining our friendly and helpful community of enthusiasts where we discuss the best in audio and video to everything else we love from food to movies and music. We are proud of the professional conduct of our membership and strict moderation of the same, combined with high level of technical content shared by our members. If you want to learn and have fun doing it, or share what you know about our favorite hobbies without fear of antagonism, WBF forum is for you." ?

_____

Amen!

_____

P.S. "Poetic acid trip" is ok with me; it's a good tone to help me adjust with the crowd.
But my background is in the Arts, and abstract poetry is part of me; the world that I sometimes find "abstract".
But I'm all for adaptation, accommodation, transformation, rejuvenation. :b

I am learning more and more everyday, learning about others and their ways of life. ...Not easy to accommodate everyone, but good if it can also result in my own accommodation...comfort zone. So yes, it's good to be shaken sometimes with the right words. Contributing to other's own comfort zone is improving our own.

Can everyone understand what I just typed above...I sure hope so.

 

[Mosin]

Can someone be both an objectivist and a subjectivist or is this a paradox?

Apparently, it is a paradox, so I suppose that puts us in a new class...

...the weird-o class.

 

[rbbert]

Perhaps this thread should be closed? amir has made his point, he can outlast us all. Maybe we should wait to see if members' posting behaviors might change after all this?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Perhaps this thread should be closed? amir has made his point, he can outlast us all. Maybe we should wait to see if members' posting behaviors might change after all this?

Good idea, but another will be started.....

I do know this however, if things don't change I'm outta here.

 

[RBFC]

How can you say that Lee? Here is an example:

I report a post where Tom had written this:

"Bob, I love's ya' bro' but the poetic acid trip talk has got to be condensed into something that normal folks can understand.

Can you provide the Cliff notes on your latest post please? Thank you sir.

Tom"

My note when reporting the post was: "Poetic acid trip? Is this how we talk in the forum Tom?"

Tom defends himself immediately:



Steve opines this way:


And then we get to your response:

Quote Originally Posted by RBFC View Post
It's his simplest means to harass us. He didn't seem to mind when Tim spoke poorly of audiophiles or DaveC calling Goldmund "elitist douchebags".

The TOS are like the Constitution. They are "laws" that may constantly be subjected to interpretation for INTENT of the law and the good of its constituents. Harmless repartee, etc is exactly that. The TOS, in higher application, prevents the nasty and unproductive exchanges. Folks like it when members give & take a bit of guff, it makes us comfortable as among friends. Friends feel closer when they can poke fun at each other.

We are the final arbiters of when someone crosses the line, just as we are when in person. We determine when someone's attitude/behavior is detrimental to the forum. If disruption of the forum were the sole criteria, then Bob (with his endless written acid trips) would be gone. As would Tim, with his constant belittlement of audiophiles. For every case cited on one "side", an example may be presented on the other.

This is pointless crap.

Lee

What word should I use when you call my opinion "crap?" Who here knows you as a person who addresses a site co-founder this way? You said what again? Never cursed me?

Steve caps the thread and that was that:



Lee, are you proud of your conduct and that of your partners here? To Greg's point, would any of you dare showing this to your wife and loved ones? Is this what you are defending as righteous and good?

What was my crime anyway? Making sure you don't call someone to be on drugs? That is what justified you all piling on like this? Is there a conscious that goes along with these posts that says, "OK, do we need to dump on Amir all the time like this?" Or "do we not need to offer respect to everyone whether we like what they post or not?"

No action required. Right....

Wow, I really let loose with the curse words, didn't I? Between defending the right to diverse posting and trying to demonstrate acceptance of that diversity, I really lost it there....I hope that it is becoming clearer that this whole brouhaha behind-the-scenes is about unchallenged power, not about poor performance by the moderation team. We are currently not "moderating" this thread,(for those who've wondered)
as each action we now take is used against us as fodder for anger. Waiting this out is unfortunately the best option.

BTW, my wife has been reading along and is proud that I too have "principles".

Lee

 

[spazmatron]

Wow, I really let loose with the curse words, didn't I? Between defending the right to diverse posting and trying to demonstrate acceptance of that diversity, I really lost it there....I hope that it is becoming clearer that this whole brouhaha behind-the-scenes is about unchallenged power, not about poor performance by the moderation team. We are currently not "moderating" this thread,(for those who've wondered)
as each action we now take is used against us as fodder for anger. Waiting this out is unfortunately the best option.

BTW, my wife has been reading along and is proud that I too have "principles".

Lee

you're doing a great job Lee!

 

[Barry2013]

perhaps this thread should be closed? Amir has made his point, he can outlast us all. Maybe we should wait to see if members' posting behaviors might change after all this?

not perhaps.
Definitely should be closed
imho of course.

 

[dallasjustice]

Laugh? No way. You speak the absolute truth. So much good is happening on the forum. So much knowledge exchanged. So much friendship created. I know that is for sure true for me.

I agree. WBF is a positive and constructive place.

 

[Gregadd]

You could do better than guessing by running a poll - or would that be too objectivist for you?

Actually it might be a good idea, your obvious hostility notwithstanding. I am currently teaching myself how to conduct and interpret such polls. If we could come up with some questions and keep the sample size small and be able to contact the members we might actually have something. That asumes they respond. Non-response could be interpreted as apathy.

I'll give it some thought.

 

[Don Hills]

Actually it might be a good idea, your obvious hostility notwithstanding. ...

Hostility? I was serious about the poll.

 

[Gregadd]

You may certainly have some negative comments as it pertains to you. I still don't see any name calling. It's frustrating to have dialog with someone that recalls non-existent posts.

Jimuku Post 154: You are a unhappy person.
Jimjuku 164: I findit it oddly hypocritical..
Jimjuku 164 :same sentence ..oddly refreshing to admits ones trolling behavior
If you can't remeber waht you said in the futrue.Do what I did. Go to to your profile and click on Find latest posts, It's a target rich envioronment.

 

[NorthStar]

Essay | ...from the heart of the ocean

I have to share this: Early this morning I call (phone) my best friend...he's 75...a true genuine artist.

We exchanged general life's thoughts. Man to man like we always do here @ WBF.
He's a direct man, doesn't shy of speaking his mind.
If I would have recorded our conversation I would have share it here with you all, from an online audio recording.

Anyway, the essence came to that: Time. Let us take the time and speak if we feel to with words that are uniting and harmonizing.
Take this situation as an opportunity to build a stronger forum, with the acceptance of who we are all.
? This one I consider very important: He said; don't try to impose or preach your own preaching philosophy.
Let these guys (Amir, Steve, Tom and Lee) take the time to resolve their differences...space and time.

His name is Will, a regular guy. But with a powerful vision, about life, and death too.

_______

I have a good memory; we talked for roughly 22 minutes...more or less, and we directly addressed roughly nine subjects.
...Very good life's subject.

_______

I want to put stuff behind, stuff from here...@ WBF. ...Because it's better.
I want to reborn as a better man. ...Because it's better.

Amir, I have the highest esteem towards you. I want to keep building that esteem. I feel deeply what you must be going through, and I don't question how you express yourself but respect your deep feelings.

Steve, I want to reach out. ...And not feel my broken heart anymore...but share with you our common passion...films, and music, and singers...all they bring emotionally. Plus tomorrow night is Oscar night; we, for both of us and other members here, is one of our deep roots...the art of filmmaking and its rewards.
I also want to apologize directly to you for losing the foundation of human control; I broke down and spoke of you harshly behind your back.

Tom, I also want to apologize to you for having second thoughts and doubts, and having judgement without consideration.

Lee, I feel fairness, like with Jack, Ron and Tim.

______

Me too I'm just doing my job, and it's to get all of us on track. ...Respect and accept all our uniqueness and grow stronger and better with it all.
I want to put stuff behind and move forward as all better men. That's how I feel and want to simply share...without any prejudice, and for the best advancement of OUR forum to all of us. I cherish the cyber friendship that I learn to cultivate slowly here with many human souls, real people like I.

Mike Lavigne I consider like a pillion of WBF foundation. ...All the ultra high end music lovers are my essential food...from their spoken words, knowledge, experience in high end audio, trust of their listening ears in their rooms and other rooms.

PeterB I missed deeply, and I forgive past spoken words.

And I'm all for Science, with measurements. I'm a long-time subscriber of Stereophile and subjective and objective audio/music analysis is my daily food.
John Atkinson, Kal Rubinson, Michael Fremer, Gordon Holt, Tom Norton, all the other audio writers and contributors I followed them for the last forty-five years.
The Abso!ute Sound, ...Harry Pearson...all that jazz.

Alan Sircom from Hi?Fi+ I'm also a subscriber, everything...including the music section @ the end.

So many people...Amir's partners @ HK. ...His technical writings @ Widescreen Review...

So many more that I've been reading since the late sixties, ...I have more audio/video magazines in my "mansion" than Donald Trumps's all TV appearances!
Donald should be a Hollywood star, an actor.

__________

So you have it, basically, essentially the music score. ...Put stuff behind, forgive the hurt done (nothing can reverse that, what is done is done), and I mean that, without forgiveness we don't advance, and take that time of true forgiveness to make this forum the best that it could possibly be with all the members, contributors, guests, moderators and administrators.

And the best thing? ...There is no rush...time is our best ally. And if we die before, no big deal because we'll pass the flame to the next generation.
So, do we want to pass a dead torch, or a flamboyant baton with a flame of best hope @ its end? ...Choice's ours. ...And it started one trillion years ago, and we are 7.35 billion people living on this planet. We're just an invisible blip in the picture, but we can make it visible if we really want to. ...Takes more than Amir and Steve and Tom and Lee; takes their own resolutions plus all of ours.

________

Will said to me; Robert, speak your good meaning words, or stay out of it. After clear reflection I selected the former.
And just few days ago I needed to step out...I wanted out.
I am nothing, I am nobody if I cannot respect and listen and understand the people around me. And I am nothing and I am nobody if I cannot speak to them always with respect...publicly and privately and even more privately...in my mind, heart and soul.
No one is perfect, and me the first. My heart is honest and sincere though, and my passion for music and films and nature and the Arts in general is true and genuine.

And I believe the same for everyone else in the forums that I frequent of the World Wide Web, including here...my most fundamental home and esperanza.

Fly high, fly above all with all.