Natural Sound

I don't understand these comments at all. All carts sing. If they are not singing, they are not moving to the grove. They literally move at the speed and frequency of the music so that tiny little arm becomes a speaker. It might be the worlds worst, but it is none the less. If your platter is stopping that, then it must be damping the vinyl that is then getting pushed by the styli... What you want is a platter coupled with the record so that the record itself is not resonating, which likely dampens the dynamics etc, but might create a false openness to it. The interaction between the record and platter is paramount and matters more than almost anything else. They probably used felt to damp the susceptible resonances of a light platter. Creating the coupling cannot be done really without a force of some kind like a weight. Even the best cut ones for putting the vinyl on top without a weight deal with uneven vinyl and are too slick typically to create the coupling. Without any compliance like with a Garrard mat (stiff rubber) too slick and hard of a surface will create bounce as oppose to coupling.
 
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Are you sure your not just hearing the resonance of that thin aluminum platter playing like a 12 inch speaker. I have center weight that weigh more than those platters. ;)
Very sure! Damping the platter on its own is essential to a good machine IME. We damped the platters in our 208s and Technics damps the SL1200G platters too.
 
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I shared a live video of her playing a Paganini caprice at Tonhalle Zurich being played through my system.
[please forgive my poor English]

Hi Morricab,
You frequently mention the Zurich Tonhalle. Elsewhere, you also mentioned another Zurich concert hall that did NOT cost too much (€9M, iirc, medium-sized); is it the Maag Halle?

The recording of Thaikovsky #5 by the Tonhalle-Zurich Orchester, conducted by Paavo Järvi, has been recorded in the "Maag Halle". I'm trying to figure out which one it is.
I tried to get some picture, but I am but confused:
- Tonhalle Zurich seems to be a historical venue.
- Maag Halle Zurich, via Google Images at least, seems to refer to two different venues: one for rather amplified-music, it seems. One for classical music (beige interior).
Quid?


(I heard the Tchaikovsky #5 last Friday in the new Namur Concert Hall, in Belgium, inaugurated in 2021 - outstanding acoustics, and, well, "natural sound" for sure, but one that lets you hear more (intelligibility), and with more body and flesh (naturalness) than even the historical, elliptical, Brussels concert hall, nevertheless praised by Niklaus Harnoncourt as one of the best acoustics in Europe. The day after, I heard the same Tchaikovsky #5 in that Brussels historical hall, by the same conductor, same orchestra touring; the differences were obvious)
 
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(I heard the Tchaikovsky #5 last Friday in the new Namur Concert Hall, in Belgium, inaugurated in 2021 - outstanding acoustics, and, well, "natural sound" for sure, but one that lets you hear more (intelligibility), and with more body and flesh (naturalness) than even the historical, elliptical, Brussels concert hall, nevertheless praised by Niklaus Harnoncourt as one of the best acoustics in Europe. The day after, I heard the same Tchaikovsky #5 in that Brussels historical hall, by the same conductor, same orchestra touring; the differences were obvious)

As an aside:
I cannot comment on these specific halls, and I also agree with you about substantial differences in sound between concert halls. Yet I would like to point out that the tonal balance, if there is more "body and flesh" to the sound or not, also very much can depend on where you sit within a given concert hall. I am not sure how much diverse experience you have within both of these concert halls as a basis for your comparison.
 
[please forgive my poor English]

Hi Morricab,
You frequently mention the Zurich Tonhalle. Elsewhere, you also mentioned another Zurich concert hall that did NOT cost too much (€9M, iirc, medium-sized); is it the Maag Halle?

The recording of Thaikovsky #5 by the Tonhalle-Zurich Orchester, conducted by Paavo Järvi, has been recorded in the "Maag Halle". I'm trying to figure out which one it is.
I tried to get some picture, but I am but confused:
- Tonhalle Zurich seems to be a historical venue.
- Maag Halle Zurich, via Google Images at least, seems to refer to two different venues: one for rather amplified-music, it seems. One for classical music (beige interior).
Quid?


(I heard the Tchaikovsky #5 last Friday in the new Namur Concert Hall, in Belgium, inaugurated in 2021 - outstanding acoustics, and, well, "natural sound" for sure, but one that lets you hear more (intelligibility), and with more body and flesh (naturalness) than even the historical, elliptical, Brussels concert hall, nevertheless praised by Niklaus Harnoncourt as one of the best acoustics in Europe. The day after, I heard the same Tchaikovsky #5 in that Brussels historical hall, by the same conductor, same orchestra touring; the differences were obvious)
Maag Halle was the temporary home for the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra while renovations were being performed on the Tonhalle. I have heard many concerts in both and the original Tonhalle, to my ears, is far superior sonically, even though I think MaagHalle was done with modern acoustical thinking.

Auditorium| MAAG Moments (maag-moments.ch) This is probably where the Paavo Jarvi recording was made if at MaagHalle

1713878266042.png
This is the inside of the Tonhalle grosser Saal...there is also a Kleiner saal for smaller ensembles...also great acoustics.
 
Maag Halle was the temporary home for the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra while renovations were being performed on the Tonhalle. I have heard many concerts in both and the original Tonhalle, to my ears, is far superior sonically, even though I think MaagHalle was done with modern acoustical thinking.

Auditorium| MAAG Moments (maag-moments.ch) This is probably where the Paavo Jarvi recording was made if at MaagHalle

View attachment 129665
This is the inside of the Tonhalle grosser Saal...there is also a Kleiner saal for smaller ensembles...also great acoustics.
Wow!......everything old is new again!
 
Maag Halle was the temporary home for the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra while renovations were being performed on the Tonhalle. I have heard many concerts in both and the original Tonhalle, to my ears, is far superior sonically, even though I think MaagHalle was done with modern acoustical thinking.

Auditorium| MAAG Moments (maag-moments.ch) This is probably where the Paavo Jarvi recording was made if at MaagHalle

View attachment 129665
This is the inside of the Tonhalle grosser Saal...there is also a Kleiner saal for smaller ensembles...also great acoustics.
This a before and after comment .. unfortunately not super detailed but I think goes to the heart of acoustics and natural sound. It's the preferred reverberation time for the listner. Tapio Lokki et all have established that peoples preference ranges from 1.6 to 2 seconds. Of course there is the quality of reverberant field and the clarity of the instruments overlaying this but at the end there is a preference for clarity or lushness that determines our preference. We have different "natural" :)
I am really enjoying all the halls being discussed as this a pretty big variable in what people consider natural and makes their choices more .... err natural
Phil
 
Saint Saens, Danse Macabre: Decca SXL 2252 with Jean Martinon conducting.


playing on a Garrard 301. 4 years ago, so iPhone 7+

 
Last edited:
playing on a Garrard 301. 4 years ago, so iPhone 7+

Does not sound good, it must be your red vine induced memories kicking in Ked ! ;)
 
These are very different performances reflected in how different the videos sound.

I recently heard a system video of the Witches Brew recording which sounds extremely good but quite different from the one Bonzo posted. The owner of that system is private, so I’m not going to post his video for a comparison.

The music is great and an interesting test for an audio system.
 
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These are very different performances reflected in how different the videos sound.

This is a salient point when comparing the two performances. The string tone of the Orchestre De La Societe Des Concerts Du Conservatoire (Martinon) is quite different from that of the New Symphony Orchestra of London (Gibson). Try ~0:23 on the Martinon -- I hear more of the interior resonant body of the double bass and I hear more texture from the violin that follows. The NSOL strings are sweeter. Same seems to hold true for the trumpets and trombones with the London band a bit more brazen in the brass. Londoners are on RCA (one of the more famous shaded dogs, Witches Brew), the French are on Decca. Each has its character. I like both.
 
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