KLaudio's new 'Magnezar' turntable

[spiritofmusic]

Sorry if covered, but is this central plus periphery clamping system a simple alternative to vacuum hold down ie a "cheaper" way to get the same outcome?
Or are the designers saying it's "superior" ie a wholly alternative approach that reaps additional benefits to vacuum?

 

[mtemur]

I believe central and peripheral clamping is implemented due to difficulty of vacuum hold down integration to direct drives. But still it’s an exciting new feature and maybe better than vacuum hold down.

On the other hand I’m confused about liquid damping and free surface effect. Centrifugal force will move liquid from one side to another due to unavoidable empty space inside the container which will eventually work against speed stability and wow&flutter.

For the same reason ships -especially submarines- try to keep their tanks (ballast, auxiliary, trim, safety, negative etc) full or empty not partially filled.

 

[Klaudio/Peter]

The outer ring method and the vacuum clamping method are very inconvenient because the platter rotation must be stopped when replacing the LP, and then platter started and clamped again after the LP is replaced. However, Klaudio clamping can be replaced immediately without having to stop. LP is attached to the platter at the same time with a weight of 2Kg for the center and 4Kg for the outer area.

 

[morricab]

No auto centering? Nakamichi is still ahead of its time!

 

[tima]

Centrifugal force will move liquid from one side to another due to unavoidable empty space inside the container which will eventually work against speed stability and wow&flutter.

Would you say more on this? My vague understanding is that the water moves toward the outer rim while the table spins. If the water is spread equally and applying equal force at all points, then the effect seems analgous to a design that has a mass ring on the internal periphery of the platter to aid speed stability.

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It will be interesting to learn about the drive motor and controller. Peter - if you see this - does the Magnezar use a slotless motor? Does the controller measure platter speed off of the platter?

 

[morricab]

Would you say more on this? My vague understanding is that the water moves toward the outer rim while the table spins. If the water is spread equally and applying equal force at all points, then the effect seems analgous to a design that has a mass ring on the internal periphery of the platter to aid speed stability.

---

It will be interesting to learn about the drive motor and controller. Peter - if you see this - does the Magnezar use a slotless motor? Does the controller measure platter speed off of the platter?

A higher density liquid would then even be preferable.

 

[tima]

A higher density liquid would then even be preferable.

Yes, possibly. If it was permanently sealed without need to change it.

I don't think we know enough at this point. Are the water and light primarily for aesthetics? It is different and catches the eye at first look.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I believe central and peripheral clamping is implemented due to difficulty of vacuum hold down integration to direct drives. But still it’s an exciting new feature and maybe better than vacuum hold down.

On the other hand I’m confused about liquid damping and free surface effect. Centrifugal force will move liquid from one side to another due to unavoidable empty space inside the container which will eventually work against speed stability and wow&flutter.

For the same reason ships -especially submarines- try to keep their tanks (ballast, auxiliary, trim, safety, negative etc) full or empty not partially filled.

There are similar problems with liquid oils and gasoline in racing when g-forces are at work. Baffle plates are used there in tanks or oil pans. They act like breakwaters and calm the liquids. so the liquid always has the same level. Exsample kit oil pans prevents the oil supply from being interrupted

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

The outer ring method and the vacuum clamping method are very inconvenient because the platter rotation must be stopped when replacing the LP, and then platter started and clamped again after the LP is replaced. However, Klaudio clamping can be replaced immediately without having to stop. LP is attached to the platter at the same time with a weight of 2Kg for the center and 4Kg for the outer area.

I am quite happy to stop and start my XL DC when changing records. It doesn't take long including the overall ritual I go through with putting an LP on the platter before I lower the stylus onto the record (as posted in another WBF thread some weeks back) where I need the platter to be stationary.
My thoughts on my ritual with changing LPs is I would rather spend an extra couple of minutes making sure everything is perfect in order to enjoy 20+ minutes of excellent LP playback !

 

[mtemur]

Would you say more on this? My vague understanding is that the water moves toward the outer rim while the table spins. If the water is spread equally and applying equal force at all points, then the effect seems analgous to a design that has a mass ring on the internal periphery of the platter to aid speed stability.

---

It will be interesting to learn about the drive motor and controller. Peter - if you see this - does the Magnezar use a slotless motor? Does the controller measure platter speed off of the platter?

Free surface effect is the movement of fluid because of an outer force when kept in a tank together with gas. Fluid mechanics describes the forces involved and further info can be found here

Ships have tanks for many purposes. In those tanks there can be oil, fresh water or sea water for stability. When a tank is not full free surface effect occurs cause ship is a moving object. Like all moving objects different forces apply. For example when a ship rolls 10 degrees to port side due to rough sea state any fluid in a half full tank will amplify this force. Because fluids want to move freely and the air in the tank won't be able to stop it. Sometimes this force is too strong and overturns the ship.

The same rule applies for fluid inside the platter. I can see from the pictures that there are air bubbles inside Magnezar turntable. It looks unimportant compared to a ship but platter rotates faster than a ship turns and we care about incredible small effects here in this hobby. I don't expect free surface effect to overturn Magnezar turntable but still cause stability problems like wow&flutter.

 

[peter.park.KLAUDIO]

Would you say more on this? My vague understanding is that the water moves toward the outer rim while the table spins. If the water is spread equally and applying equal force at all points, then the effect seems analgous to a design that has a mass ring on the internal periphery of the platter to aid speed stability.

---

It will be interesting to learn about the drive motor and controller. Peter - if you see this - does the Magnezar use a slotless motor? Does the controller measure platter speed off of the platter?

A higher density liquid would then even be preferable.

Yes, density and viscosity is very important this case.

 

[peter.park.KLAUDIO]

Yes, possibly. If it was permanently sealed without need to change it.

I don't think we know enough at this point. Are the water and light primarily for aesthetics? It is different and catches the eye at first look.

Yes, it is permanently sealed, but there is an option to add or remove the liquid using a port screw if necessary.
The original purpose of adding liquid to the platter is to reduce wow and flutter, ensuring optimal audio performance. However, as a hi-fi audio product, we also consider the importance of aesthetics in its design

 

[peter.park.KLAUDIO]

If you have any questions or comments, please visit the following link: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...of-our-new-magnezar-high-end-turntable.37059/
We look forward to engaging with you!

 

[Solypsa]

Free surface effect is the movement of fluid because of an outer force when kept in a tank together with gas. Fluid mechanics describes the forces involved and further info can be found here

Ships have tanks for many purposes. In those tanks there can be oil, fresh water or sea water for stability. When a tank is not full free surface effect occurs cause ship is a moving object. Like all moving objects different forces apply. For example when a ship rolls 10 degrees to port side due to rough sea state any fluid in a half full tank will amplify this force. Because fluids want to move freely and the air in the tank won't be able to stop it. Sometimes this force is too strong and overturns the ship.

The same rule applies for fluid inside the platter. I can see from the pictures that there are air bubbles inside Magnezar turntable. It looks unimportant compared to a ship but platter rotates faster than a ship turns and we care about incredible small effects here in this hobby. I don't expect free surface effect to overturn Magnezar turntable but still cause stability problems like wow&flutter.

Physics stay the same, so the boat analogy is interesting, however in this case we have a steady state ( relatively ) of motion and, for the sake of this discussion in one plane, unlike the three planes of a floating vessel ( with wildly varying force and direction ).

Would, of course, be interesting to see before and after W&F measurements.

Direct drives are criticized for sonic artifacts related to correction errors, true, and various means ( including this one apparently ) are used to ameliorate these errors.

Caveat:I have heard this table (and prototype before this one ) but never in a system context I am deeply familiar with.

 

[mtemur]

Physics stay the same, so the boat analogy is interesting, however in this case we have a steady state ( relatively ) of motion and, for the sake of this discussion in one plane, unlike the three planes of a floating vessel ( with wildly varying force and direction ).

Would, of course, be interesting to see before and after W&F measurements.

Direct drives are criticized for sonic artifacts related to correction errors, true, and various means ( including this one apparently ) are used to ameliorate these errors.

Caveat:I have heard this table (and prototype before this one ) but never in a system context I am deeply familiar with.

There is also the effect of moving mass. I'm sure you're familiar with balancing platters. Maybe you've noticed indentations made by a drill underside the platters. It is done to make sure mass is distributed equally, just like adding lead weights to car wheels. Putting fluid inside a platter also ruins the balance.

 

[peter.park.KLAUDIO]

Would you say more on this? My vague understanding is that the water moves toward the outer rim while the table spins. If the water is spread equally and applying equal force at all points, then the effect seems analgous to a design that has a mass ring on the internal periphery of the platter to aid speed stability.

---

It will be interesting to learn about the drive motor and controller. Peter - if you see this - does the Magnezar use a slotless motor? Does the controller measure platter speed off of the platter?

Magnezar has a planar type direct motor with a superior control drive system, rather than a slotless motor. This design choice ensures minimal noise and a 'free-cog' experience. Additionally, we offer three speed options: 33 45, and 78 rpm.

 

[Solypsa]

There is also the effect of moving mass. I'm sure you're familiar with balancing platters. Maybe you've noticed indentations made by a drill underside the platters. It is done to make sure mass is distributed equally, just like adding lead weights to car wheels. Putting fluid inside a platter also ruins the balance good point.

 

[PeterA]

Magnezar has a planar type direct motor with a superial control drive system, rather than a slotless motor. This design choice ensures minimal noise and a 'free-cog' experience. Additionally, we offer three speed options: 33 45, and 78 rpm.

Peter, Could you talk a little bit about how speed is maintained? Is it periodically checked and adjusted, or do you rely on the higher mass platter to maintain momentum, or some combination?

 

[tima]

Free surface effect is the movement of fluid because of an outer force when kept in a tank together with gas. Fluid mechanics describes the forces involved and further info can be found here

Ships have tanks for many purposes. In those tanks there can be oil, fresh water or sea water for stability. When a tank is not full free surface effect occurs cause ship is a moving object. Like all moving objects different forces apply. For example when a ship rolls 10 degrees to port side due to rough sea state any fluid in a half full tank will amplify this force. Because fluids want to move freely and the air in the tank won't be able to stop it. Sometimes this force is too strong and overturns the ship.

The same rule applies for fluid inside the platter. I can see from the pictures that there are air bubbles inside Magnezar turntable. It looks unimportant compared to a ship but platter rotates faster than a ship turns and we care about incredible small effects here in this hobby. I don't expect free surface effect to overturn Magnezar turntable but still cause stability problems like wow&flutter.

Thank you for writing that follow-up -- appreciated

I would expect that the water does not slosh around once the platter is on speed. I think of being inside a tilt-a-whirl carnival ride with my back on the inside of a spinning canister -- I was pinned to the canister and could not move as it turned. When it tilted, I'm guessing at least 45 degrees I was still pinned and not going anywhere. Of course the platter does not tilt, assuming a stable bearing.

 

[mtemur]

Thank you for writing that follow-up -- appreciated

I would expect that the water does not slosh around once the platter is on speed. I think of being inside a tilt-a-whirl carnival ride with my back on the inside of a spinning canister -- I was pinned to the canister and could not move as it turned. When it tilted, I'm guessing at least 45 degrees I was still pinned and not going anywhere. Of course the platter does not tilt, assuming a stable bearing.

In a whirlpool -because of centrifugal force- water turns at different speeds at different radiuses cause it is fluid, it is not fixed and want to move freely. Centrifugal force changes by radius. In your analogy you’re fixed cause you’re not acting like a fluid.
While platter is spinning at 33.3rpm the fluid inside will turn slower depending on it’s radius. This is also bad for stability. I see no point on putting a fluid inside a platter.