Is Live, Unamplified Music the Correct Reference for the Sound of our Audio Systems?

[PeterA]

I guess a good test of a home system as to its suitability to play realistic levels would be to put a real live band through it and see how it deals with it. It might not tell you all you need to know about timbre, soundstage, transparency etc. but it will tell you if your system truncates the dynamic and energy envelope that is a big part of "feeling" live. That is the other thing I think most systems miss from live, a real umph in the mid bass and lower mids. Live sound is meatier.

I agree, and when I really think about it, the systems that I have heard which are purported to sound "accurate", articulate, and resolving, actually sound a bit thin, a bit lean, and a bit bright to me. They seem a bit washed out or bleached to me. Meatier is a good way to describe live sound. I also think of it as having a richer tone. Cymbals are not splashes of white, but colored with weight, and body, and tone.

 

[PeterA]

Smaller horns aren't as special, so though I wish for a big one I might not end up getting one, expensive as well, and imo crazy to waste so much money on real estate in London on hifi, but that is a personal financial decision. Luckily vintage drivers of tannoys in small/average sized rooms are excellent, better than duos, Wagner's, Liszt, etc

From what I've read about Tannoys, they would seem to be a consideration, but many do not consider them to be true horns. I've been meaning to visit Jim Smith's system to hear his Canteburys. Are you talking about removing the drivers and employing them in a custom cabinet?

 

[bonzo75]

From what I've read about Tannoys, they would seem to be a consideration, but many do not consider them to be true horns. I've been meaning to visit Jim Smith's system to hear his Canteburys. Are you talking about removing the drivers and employing them in a custom cabinet?

They are not horns. However where else can you get 12 to 15 inch coherent driver? The dual concentric nature of the driver, with a horn tweeter, makes it sound like a single large, coherent driver. Cabinets and crossovers differ. I haven't liked any of the three Canterburys I have heard so far. Tannoy started in the 40s, and was used by Decca, Phillips, EMI, etc in their studios. Their drivers underwent various changes, dropping in impedance and sensitivity to adjust to increasing power demands. Many think that they lost it as management changed and the modern day speakers aren't as good.

Old drivers are 16 ohms, then there are 8, then are the tougher to drive Canterbury etc. Cabinets vary, as do crossover mods. I am still figuring it out, I already know I like the old ones with modded cross overs, I still need to check out various Westminster installs and some really old drivers ones.

Some are easier to drive than some horns, and have great tone and bass and flow. Coherence is great. You lose out on ultimate detail

 

[morricab]

They are not horns. However where else can you get 12 to 15 inch coherent driver? The dual concentric nature of the driver, with a horn tweeter, makes it sound like a single large, coherent driver. Cabinets and crossovers differ. I haven't liked any of the three Canterburys I have heard so far. Tannoy started in the 40s, and was used by Decca, Phillips, EMI, etc in their studios. Their drivers underwent various changes, dropping in impedance and sensitivity to adjust to increasing power demands. Many think that they lost it as management changed and the modern day speakers aren't as good.

Old drivers are 16 ohms, then there are 8, then are the tougher to drive Canterbury etc. Cabinets vary, as do crossover mods. I am still figuring it out, I already know I like the old ones with modded cross overs, I still need to check out various Westminster installs and some really old drivers ones.

Some are easier to drive than some horns, and have great tone and bass and flow. Coherence is great. You lose out on ultimate detail

In strict terms, Tannoys are not time coherent. They have a second order crossover that makes the time alignment not really possible. I would consider an Altec 604 variant before i would a Tannoy...what I have heard from those old Altecs is pretty special...and 100DB! Also, I think you could consider the tweeter on the Tannoy a type of horn or waveguide loading.

 

[bonzo75]

In strict terms, Tannoys are not time coherent. They have a second order crossover that makes the time alignment not really possible. I would consider an Altec 604 variant before i would a Tannoy...what I have heard from those old Altecs is pretty special...and 100DB! Also, I think you could consider the tweeter on the Tannoy a type of horn or waveguide loading.

I haven't heard the Altec. Which tannoys are second order? All?

 

[bonzo75]

Tannoy and Altec fans are often common and use either driver in custom cabinet and move from one to the other

 

[morricab]

Tannoy and Altec fans are often common and use either driver in custom cabinet and move from one to the other

Except I still haven't heard a Tannoy that resolves like an Altec.

 

[Robh3606]

"In strict terms, Tannoys are not time coherent. They have a second order crossover that makes the time alignment not really possible. I would consider an Altec 604 variant before i would a Tannoy...what I have heard from those old Altecs is pretty special...and 100DB!"


You can find time aligned Altec 604 and JBL 801C coaxial in the UREI monitors which sound really nice especially the 811c

Rob

 

[Al M.]

After hearing Nik Bärtsch last night I guess it could be fairly asked how many really want live levels everytime they listen? I think the answer would be a surprisingly large number would not want this. What they would more likely be in for is something at say 3/4 level that retains much of the excitement and dynamics of live. The concert last night was loud but definitely not OTT (my ears were not buzzing or ringing or even a bit muffled after, so the level was well within tolerances) but the energy and sheer WHACK of the sound is something that seems to still be the territory of live.

So if it is not the average levels, which were more than suitable to listen without fatigue what were the PEAK levels like? Hard to say but I would guess they were in excess of what even a good conventional home system can do... or is it? What if we fed your home system the same live feed the monitors in this club were being fed? Would there be a big jump in the dynamics of your system? Would your system break? Would your system tame it all down?? This for me is an interesting question to get the problem of what is missing in playback. I don't accept that they are or should be inherently different. Sure produced product will differ from live but let's take a live recording and shouldn't it closely resemble the real thing when played at the original levels?

I had a look at the monitors that were used at the club. They were a German brand called Kling & Freitag. Their larger monitors are capable of over 130db and have sensitivity of 99+db/watt. There were 4 of them setup (2 left and 2 right). We weren't really close to 130db but probably peaks over 110db. To my knowledge, Swiss law requires max average levels of 93db or less. However, these monitors were clearly able to cleanly reproduce live drum whacks that were frankly startling on occasion (it was even more extreme last Monday when I sat even closer). A closer look at these monitors shows they are two-ways with either 12 or 15 inch woofers and a 1.4" compression driver in a horn/waveguide. I don't think those live cymbal crashes, hard rimshots or sharp snare strikes would be handled well by a coventional tweeter.

I guess a good test of a home system as to its suitability to play realistic levels would be to put a real live band through it and see how it deals with it. It might not tell you all you need to know about timbre, soundstage, transparency etc. but it will tell you if your system truncates the dynamic and energy envelope that is a big part of "feeling" live. That is the other thing I think most systems miss from live, a real umph in the mid bass and lower mids. Live sound is meatier.

I DON'T WANT to listen at home at live levels. Why? Because it's damaging to the ear, that's why. I follow NIOSH recommendations:

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

From time to time a live concert is fine, but I don't want to torture my ears every day. I plan to be an audiophile also at 75 or 85, if I live that long, God willing. I need my ears. I already listen quite loudly at home (too loud for some), but not excessively so.

Brad, didn't you say that you listen at home at relatively low levels? Or is my recollection of some recent posts mistaken?

 

[Al M.]

I agree, and when I really think about it, the systems that I have heard which are purported to sound "accurate", articulate, and resolving, actually sound a bit thin, a bit lean, and a bit bright to me. They seem a bit washed out or bleached to me. Meatier is a good way to describe live sound. I also think of it as having a richer tone. Cymbals are not splashes of white, but colored with weight, and body, and tone.

Yes, we had several discussions about cymbal sound. They are important to me too, and i prefer a meaty sound. Sometimes live cymbals though do sound relatively white, but usually it's an array of colors.

 

[morricab]

I DON'T WANT to listen at home at live levels. Why? Because it's damaging to the ear, that's why. I follow NIOSH recommendations:

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

From time to time a live concert is fine, but I don't want to torture my ears every day. I plan to be an audiophile also at 75 or 85, if I live that long, God willing. I need my ears. I already listen quite loudly at home (too loud for some), but not excessively so.

Brad, didn't you say that you listen at home at relatively low levels? Or is my recollection of some recent posts mistaken?

I DON'T WANT to listen at home at live levels. Why? Because it's damaging to the ear, that's why. I follow NIOSH recommendations:

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

From time to time a live concert is fine, but I don't want to torture my ears every day. I plan to be an audiophile also at 75 or 85, if I live that long, God willing. I need my ears. I already listen quite loudly at home (too loud for some), but not excessively so.

Brad, didn't you say that you listen at home at relatively low levels? Or is my recollection of some recent posts mistaken?

Yes, I also value my ears and don't listen loud very often. I rarely ever get as loud as I heard last night but when it is clean loud then it is quite tolerable. That is one of the things my horns do well...getting loud while staying very clean.

 

[morricab]

"In strict terms, Tannoys are not time coherent. They have a second order crossover that makes the time alignment not really possible. I would consider an Altec 604 variant before i would a Tannoy...what I have heard from those old Altecs is pretty special...and 100DB!"


You can find time aligned Altec 604 and JBL 801C coaxial in the UREI monitors which sound really nice especially the 811c

Rob

Would love to hear some Urei monitors someday...they were quite famous...

 

[bonzo75]

"In strict terms, Tannoys are not time coherent. They have a second order crossover that makes the time alignment not really possible. I would consider an Altec 604 variant before i would a Tannoy...what I have heard from those old Altecs is pretty special...and 100DB!"


You can find time aligned Altec 604 and JBL 801C coaxial in the UREI monitors which sound really nice especially the 811c

Rob

Actually, I am planning to visit a tannoy guy who moved to urei, but maybe two or three months later

 

[bonzo75]

I DON'T WANT to listen at home at live levels. Why? Because it's damaging to the ear, that's why. I follow NIOSH recommendations:

https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/decibel-loudness-comparison-chart/

From time to time a live concert is fine, but I don't want to torture my ears every day. I plan to be an audiophile also at 75 or 85, if I live that long, God willing. I need my ears. I already listen quite loudly at home (too loud for some), but not excessively so.

Brad, didn't you say that you listen at home at relatively low levels? Or is my recollection of some recent posts mistaken?

The listening lifestyle of a retired audiophile will differ from that of someone working 5 days a week, or listening in his office at work. For that, there is volume control, but the system should be able to play at loud levels when required.

This is also why some people purposefully roll off sound, because they do not have the financial means to chop and change and do room treatment till they get the perfect highs that are extended yet not harsh. This protects ears, as does lower volume. Just that when reporting on WBF, we should report what we think is ideal sound and what we are doing for our compromises. Many people report things that roll off, like underpowered valves amps on tough to drive speakers for pleasant clipping, as the SOTA way to go.

 

[morricab]

I haven't heard the Altec. Which tannoys are second order? All?

Yep, all. But they still sound pretty coherent because of the co-location of the drivers. Dynamikks are also not time coherent but being coax they sound quite so. The old Altec driver is a beast and has a great reputation for a reason...it is damn good.

 

[morricab]

The listening lifestyle of a retired audiophile will differ from that of someone working 5 days a week, or listening in his office at work. For that, there is volume control, but the system should be able to play at loud levels when required.

This is also why some people purposefully roll off sound, because they do not have the financial means to chop and change and do room treatment till they get the perfect highs that are extended yet not harsh. This protects ears, as does lower volume. Just that when reporting on WBF, we should report what we think is ideal sound and what we are doing for our compromises. Many people report things that roll off, like underpowered valves amps on tough to drive speakers for pleasant clipping, as the SOTA way to go.

Clipping is never pleasant...

 

[ack]

reproduced music will never get very close to live music especially in a relatively small space. at best reproduced music will 'remind' us of the real thing and allow us moments here and there of 'suspension of disbelief' to one degree or another.

Agreed, and not sure why this is not obvious to many other folks.

 

[bonzo75]

Clipping is never pleasant...

On under driving it does not always necessarily get harsh. Sometimes it gets soft on tops, also dynamic range can compress

 

[Robh3606]

"On under driving it does not always necessarily get harsh. Sometimes it gets soft on tops, also dynamic range can compress "

Depends on how you under drive. If you follow the normal train of thought you want to have more power available than the drivers can handle for dynamic headroom. But is does not have to be done that way. It all depends on power handling and driver sensitivity. If you start with high sensitivity drivers that also combine high power handling you can easily "under power" the drivers and not really sacrifice your dynamic range. You can actually set up a situation where you are not driving your amps into clipping and never running enough power into the drivers for them to have an issue with power compression and not sacrifice dynamic range. There is a sweet spot.

Rob

 

[Folsom]

That's a big word salad for a simple fact, some amplifiers clip softly so you don't hear it, others clip very harshly so it's horrid to hear. But sometimes even soft ones can clip to the point of being harsh.