Is Live, Unamplified Music the Correct Reference for the Sound of our Audio Systems?

[microstrip]

(...) I wish my system could approach this level of power, clarity, dynamics and sheer energy. It was a reality check and perhaps an excellent guide as I continue my experiments with cartridge loading and what sounds most natural.

Yes, you are in the good way to do it. But 90% of it is educating us to find all this attributes in our systems, the other 10% is performing some change that seems to have an hyperbolic effect after we are prepared to hear it ...

Experiences like these make me want to forget our debates about analog and digital. It is about the joy of music and the quality of the performance that drives this passion. (...)

IMHO the hobby and the performance do not mix just because they share the same objective, although better sound reproduction can bring more enjoyment to listening to music. And yes, debates can also help in our musical enjoyment.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Horns

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[Al M.]

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

LOL!

 

[PeterA]

Horns

The Magico Ultimates are too large for my room, sadly.

 

[Folsom]

The Magico Ultimates are too large for my room, sadly.

Too large for me to look at, as well.

 

[Tango]

I am shifting my focus and attention more towards two more general observations: energy and natural sound.

Horns

Funny I was thinking someone would yell "horn."

It seems your sonic priorities are heading toward this camp without realizing Peter . I bet you will be much into tones and will careless about sound stage.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Mike Lavigne]

reproduced music will never get very close to live music especially in a relatively small space. at best reproduced music will 'remind' us of the real thing and allow us moments here and there of 'suspension of disbelief' to one degree or another.

but........live music can never fill my (particular) life and compliment my life in the way uber reproduced music can either. i prefer the privacy and controlled environment of my listening room, and the fact i can do it any time i like exactly the way i choose. we all gravitate toward those experiences which meet our needs the best.

possibly when i retire and don't need the 'get away from it time' my changing life needs will make me feel differently about this.

YMMV, just my 2 cents. i expect many will not agree.

i know this is a bit OT, but it's an aspect of reproduced music which is very significant......to me.

 

[Kenc]

well I'm going to jump in again and respond without studying all the previous responses... my audio system "sounds" much better than any live acoustic event I have attended. For one thing my listening room is dead quiet as are my components at rest. It gives me immense pleasure to sit in front of it by myself and "get lost" in the music regardless of the source. A live musical event is much more of a social thing. I usually attend with my significant other and sometimes with other couples. We see acts that I might listen to in solitude at home but seeing them perform live is more of celebration of their musical talent rather than an appreciation of the sound. So, no, live music is not a good reference for the performance of one's system..rather it is complementary.

 

[Tango]

but........live music can never fill my (particular) life and compliment my life in the way uber reproduced music can either. i prefer the privacy and controlled environment of my listening room, and the fact i can do it any time i like exactly the way i choose. we all gravitate toward those experiences which meet our needs the best.

possibly when i retire and don't need the 'get away from it time' my changing life needs will make me feel differently about this.

YMMV, just my 2 cents. i expect many will not agree.

i know this is a bit OT, but it's an aspect of reproduced music which is very significant......to me.

I feel exactly the same way. Another thing is I want to hear the original musicians and their performances not covered. Most of them are long gone. No chance for me and my lifestyle getting that.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[Folsom]

A lot of the the ability to sound real also bring clues about the process of recording, mixing, and mastering.

 

[morricab]

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Pithy...inaccurate but pithy...

 

[morricab]

The Magico Ultimates are too large for my room, sadly.

Now you are finally talking about an interesting Magico ...

 

[morricab]

A lot of the the ability to sound real also bring clues about the process of recording, mixing, and mastering.

Just went last night to hear Nik Bärtsch again at Exil club in Zürich. While the concert is amplified to some degree (good monitors above the stage) the venue is intimate enough to get tons of direct sound from the stage. Nevertheless, what is clear to me is that even through the monitors the sound is much more "live" sounding than any recordings. What this tells me is that the microphones and even the mixer, amps, speakers were not doing such a bad job at capturing the event. You would never confuse this level of dynamics and explosiveness with recorded playback...only live, amplified or otherwise. It seems a lot is lost in the recording and processing more so than the initial capture.

This is not the first time I have heard superb amplified concerts...the Swiss have money to invest in top class live amplified sound and seem to care about this aspect a lot. Another venue I frequent also has mild amplification for jazz concerts and the blend is nearly seamless and in no way feels anything but really live.

This sort of ties into another thread where I was told that what is lost at the microphone is "catastrophic" but based on mulitple live amplified concerts I would have to dispute this claim (not that you made the claim...I think it was Robert Harley channled through Stenho).

 

[morricab]

Funny I was thinking someone would yell "horn."

It seems your sonic priorities are heading toward this camp without realizing Peter . I bet you will be much into tones and will careless about sound stage.

Kind regards,
Tang

I think you don't have to sacrifice sound stage...

 

[tima]

After years of thinking about audio's sonic attributes like dynamics, resolution and soundstaging, I am shifting my focus and attention more towards two more general observations: energy and natural sound.

The closer we get to live music the less the standard audiophile vocabulary seems pertinent. The finer the analysis of sound, particularly the audiophile attempt to put things in boxes so we can talk about sound, the further we get from experiencing it. We do better with static art than performance art and our visual vocabularly seems more refined. There is something to be said for 'pulling back' our perspective to more general observations.

 

[tima]

Funny I was thinking someone would yell "horn."

That would be Wagner.

 

[morricab]

reproduced music will never get very close to live music especially in a relatively small space. at best reproduced music will 'remind' us of the real thing and allow us moments here and there of 'suspension of disbelief' to one degree or another.

but........live music can never fill my (particular) life and compliment my life in the way uber reproduced music can either. i prefer the privacy and controlled environment of my listening room, and the fact i can do it any time i like exactly the way i choose. we all gravitate toward those experiences which meet our needs the best.

possibly when i retire and don't need the 'get away from it time' my changing life needs will make me feel differently about this.

YMMV, just my 2 cents. i expect many will not agree.

i know this is a bit OT, but it's an aspect of reproduced music which is very significant......to me.

After hearing Nik Bärtsch last night I guess it could be fairly asked how many really want live levels everytime they listen? I think the answer would be a surprisingly large number would not want this. What they would more likely be in for is something at say 3/4 level that retains much of the excitement and dynamics of live. The concert last night was loud but definitely not OTT (my ears were not buzzing or ringing or even a bit muffled after, so the level was well within tolerances) but the energy and sheer WHACK of the sound is something that seems to still be the territory of live.

So if it is not the average levels, which were more than suitable to listen without fatigue what were the PEAK levels like? Hard to say but I would guess they were in excess of what even a good conventional home system can do... or is it? What if we fed your home system the same live feed the monitors in this club were being fed? Would there be a big jump in the dynamics of your system? Would your system break? Would your system tame it all down?? This for me is an interesting question to get the problem of what is missing in playback. I don't accept that they are or should be inherently different. Sure produced product will differ from live but let's take a live recording and shouldn't it closely resemble the real thing when played at the original levels?

I had a look at the monitors that were used at the club. They were a German brand called Kling & Freitag. Their larger monitors are capable of over 130db and have sensitivity of 99+db/watt. There were 4 of them setup (2 left and 2 right). We weren't really close to 130db but probably peaks over 110db. To my knowledge, Swiss law requires max average levels of 93db or less. However, these monitors were clearly able to cleanly reproduce live drum whacks that were frankly startling on occasion (it was even more extreme last Monday when I sat even closer). A closer look at these monitors shows they are two-ways with either 12 or 15 inch woofers and a 1.4" compression driver in a horn/waveguide. I don't think those live cymbal crashes, hard rimshots or sharp snare strikes would be handled well by a coventional tweeter.

I guess a good test of a home system as to its suitability to play realistic levels would be to put a real live band through it and see how it deals with it. It might not tell you all you need to know about timbre, soundstage, transparency etc. but it will tell you if your system truncates the dynamic and energy envelope that is a big part of "feeling" live. That is the other thing I think most systems miss from live, a real umph in the mid bass and lower mids. Live sound is meatier.

 

[the sound of Tao]

The closer we get to live music the less the standard audiophile vocabulary seems pertinent. The finer the analysis of sound, particularly the audiophile attempt to put things in boxes so we can talk about sound, the further we get from experiencing it. We do better with static art than performance art and our visual vocabularly seems more refined. There is something to be said for 'pulling back' our perspective to more general observations.

So very beautifully put Tim... TALKING about live music is a lot like TALKING about sex... cue Brad, HORNS!!! Well not exactly what I meant but surely almost as close to making love, almost as exciting, almost as real, almost as natural, almost as dynamic... well almost... kinda... sorta...

 

[PeterA]

Funny I was thinking someone would yell "horn."

It seems your sonic priorities are heading toward this camp without realizing Peter . I bet you will be much into tones and will careless about sound stage.

Kind regards,
Tang

Tang I rely on you for a smile in the morning. Sorry Ked .

A buddy of mine just wrote me after I described what I like about lower loading values on my phono stage . He told me that I will soon be looking for a tube preamp. I don't know. I think it is possible to have both great tone and good sound stage.

I keep reading that one needs a big room for big horns and that smaller horn speakers aren't as special. I have a smaller room, so the kinds of horns that would interest me may not be appropriate for my space. That level of investigation is pretty far off for me. And besides, I'm quite happy at the moment.

 

[bonzo75]

Tang I rely on you for a smile in the morning. Sorry Ked .

A buddy of mine just wrote me after I described what I like about lower loading values on my phono stage . He told me that I will soon be looking for a tube preamp. I don't know. I think it is possible to have both great tone and good sound stage.

I keep reading that one needs a big room for big horns and that smaller horn speakers aren't as special. I have a smaller room, so the kinds of horns that would interest me may not be appropriate for my space. That level of investigation is pretty far off for me. And besides, I'm quite happy at the moment.

Smaller horns aren't as special, so though I wish for a big one I might not end up getting one, expensive as well, and imo crazy to waste so much money on real estate in London on hifi, but that is a personal financial decision. Luckily vintage drivers of tannoys in small/average sized rooms are excellent, better than duos, Wagner's, Liszt, etc