Incredible Stillpoints

[rockitman]

Speaking of adapters that screw in, the bottom of one of my Alexias has a tight threading. I can't screw a Stillpoint into it - it goes a 1/4" and gets stuck. Very stuck. I can't even screw in the Wilson spike without it getting stuck at the same point. The speaker came like this and I was able to use an allen wrench on the spike to force it in, but the Stillpoint adapters don't have this feature.

Any thoughts?

Hopefully it is not a cross thread issue. In your case, I would screw the adapter into the stillpoint first, then screw in the adapter with the Ultra 5 attached into the speaker. You will have plenty of leverage to get it to turn by screwing in the Ultra 5 itself with your hand.

 

[MadFloyd]

Hopefully it is not a cross thread issue. In your case, I would screw the adapter into the stillpoint first, then screw in the adapter with the Ultra 5 attached into the speaker. You will have plenty of leverage to get it to turn by screwing in the Ultra 5 itself with your hand.

That's how I was doing it. Two of them on the other speaker were so tights had to really force it. I hope I like them because they will never come out.

What's the proper way to level the speaker? Back the Stillpoint off the screw or the screw off the speaker? If the latter I'm hosed...

 

[rockitman]

That's how I was doing it. Two of them on the other speaker were so tights had to really force it. I hope I like them because they will never come out.

What's the proper way to level the speaker? Back the Stillpoint off the screw or the screw off the speaker? If the latter I'm hosed...

if it is only one thread that is giving you the trouble, screw that one in as far as desired and use the other 3 too level it. The threads going into the stillpoint are not very long, so backing them out for leveling purposes is probably not a good idea.

 

[MadFloyd]

Well, my first impressions aren't positive unfortunately so I'm going to have a real fun time trying to get these suckers out. I might have to replace the bottoms of my Alexias.

For me, the Stillpoints created a lot of uneven, sometimes boomy bass. I find the soundstage blurred and transients too soft for my liking. Other than the bass it's pleasant but feels more like background music than live music to me.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[rockitman]

Well, my first impressions aren't positive unfortunately so I'm going to have a real fun time trying to get these suckers out. I might have to replace the bottoms of my Alexias.

For me, the Stillpoints created a lot of uneven, sometimes boomy bass. I find the soundstage blurred and transients too soft for my liking. Other than the bass it's pleasant but feels more like background music than live music to me.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Give them a chance Ian. Blurring bass and transients is not what they are supposed to do. If the speaker is higher now, try a small cushion in your seat to see if the sound changes for the better or worse.

 

[LL21]

Well, my first impressions aren't positive unfortunately so I'm going to have a real fun time trying to get these suckers out. I might have to replace the bottoms of my Alexias.

For me, the Stillpoints created a lot of uneven, sometimes boomy bass. I find the soundstage blurred and transients too soft for my liking. Other than the bass it's pleasant but feels more like background music than live music to me.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Hi MadFloyd, in my experience and after speaking with a number of people who own them, something like this has in all instances only occurred with something going on in the installation. I am NOT saying it is improperly installed...only sharing my experience that it tends to have been this way in other situations...unevenness on the floor creating some odd form of reverb/vibration or something.

If yours are properly installed, and you are still getting this, so be it. They may not work for you.

 

[rbbert]

If you have flooring (as opposed to carpet) I would definitely advise taking the threads out and turning them upside down, then compare three of them to four. You could try this even with carpet, although users here with carpet seem to prefer threading them into the speakers.

 

[MadFloyd]

I have a berber carpet (very short pile) on a first story floor (which can be excited by certain frequencies) so I had high hopes for this tightening up the bass. I'll give a listen again tomorrow when my ears are fresh and see what I think. I know the right speaker is a little rocky (not quite level) and maybe that isn't helping.

 

[PeterA]

For me, the Stillpoints created a lot of uneven, sometimes boomy bass. I find the soundstage blurred and transients too soft for my liking. Other than the bass it's pleasant but feels more like background music than live music to me.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

I've been following this thread since the beginning and given the near-universal praise for these Ultra 5 Stillpoints, I accepted the offer to try a set in my system. An audio buddy bought six at an audio show and suggested that I take them home and try them under my speakers. They make a positive difference in his system so I had high expectations. I installed three Ultra 5s under each of my Magico Mini 2s.



There has been so much hype about this product on the net, that I almost hesitate to offer a differing opinion, but this is what I learned. I've been listening for a few days and had them in and out of the system three times. I clearly hear a difference, but as with a lot of stuff, I needed some time to understand how they were altering the sound. I listened to the following LPs:

1. Sonny Rollins, Way out West
2. Vivaldi, Concerto for two Mandolins
3. Mozart, solo piano
4. Muddy Waters, Folk Singer 45 RPM
5. Brahms, Double concerto, Cello and Violin
6. Rachmaninoff, Symphonic Dances
7. Sheffield, Drum Track LP

The first thing I noticed was an enhanced mid range presentation. Vocals and strings seemed more beautiful. There seemed to be more spacial information and greater depth to the soundstage. Piano decays were longer. But the more I listened, the more I noticed that this enhanced tonal emphasis came at the expense of the extreme frequencies, both the mid bass (not much deep bass with my Minis) and the upper treble. The tonal balance was less neutral than before.

Struck cymbals did not seem as clear. Bass did not have as much weight and impact. Then this morning, I played the Rachmaninoff and Sheffield drums. I did not hear as much leading edge attack or clean transients. When I removed the Stillpoints from the system, dynamics, leading edge, mid bass weight and impact all returned. The Drum Track, which is an acid test for system dynamics, sounded great again. Clear, fast and ultra dynamic. Complex symphonic music regained the overall sense of clarity that was missing with the Stillpoints in place. Music was more vivid, clean, dynamic and present again. And tonal balance was more neutral, because the midrange was no longer emphasized at the expense of the bass and treble.

Some of the listening I did by myself, but last night and today, I had two audio buddies join me. One was the guy who let me borrow the Stillpoints. The other is a guy loves classical music and uses the BSO, as I do, as his reference. We share the mutual goal of accuracy in our respective systems. Both guys are members of this forum and may chime in on this thread. The Stillpoints definitely make the other system in which I heard them sound better, but my system, and all three of us agreed, sounds best without the Stillpoints.

I have a suspended wooden floor with a carpet in front of the speakers. There is a lolli-column under each speaker, so the floor does not move as much as it would without the extra support. The floor does slightly sing along with the speakers during very loud music so the decoupling effect of the Stillpoints may be responsible for giving the impression of greater depth and better spacial information, but with the Stillpoints in place, the speakers are not as grounded or connected to the floor and they must move on a microscopic level back and forth with the drivers. I think this is why we all three heard softer transients and less impactful bass and dynamics. With the Magico hard cone footers in place, it is very difficult to budge the 200 lb speakers. I certainly can not slide them. With the Stillpoints, the speakers could actually be slid around much easier. Also the top and bottom disk do move against each other. This is part of the design, but I think it allows slight movement as the speaker drivers move in and out, perhaps contributing to the slight blurring and softening of the sound.

Well, my experience with the Stillpoints is that they are a tweak which can be very effective in some systems. They definitely alter the sound of a system. In my system, they did some good things and some not so good things. On balance, I prefer the sound of the system without them. In my view, the Stillpoints are NOT a "no-brainer." They need to be listened to very critically, over time, and with a variety of music. System context is important. Some people like what they do more than others, and they are expensive.

 

[RBFC]

Peter,

Might the height of the speakers with/without the Stillpoints also have affected the sound?

Lee

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Might the height of the speakers with/without the Stillpoints also have affected the sound?

Lee

Lee, I thought of that. The speakers were raised a total of 1/2". I tested three things:

1. Raised listening seat 1/2". Same result.
2. Tilted the back of the speaker up 1/16", effecting tilt, but allowing a laser light to fall precisely on the same marked spot behind the listener seat, so ear/tweeter relationship was the same. Woofer/tweeter tilt or time alignment was slightly different. Same result. Unlike Wilsons, no articulating driver modules for readjusting time alignment.
3. Same speaker tilt, just raised 1/2". Same result.

By same result, I mean, any observed differences were so subtle, that I would struggle to describe them. Perhaps tilting the speakers forward 1/16" effects time alignment and may result in the tonal shift I observed. But by far the bigger issue for me was the decrease in dynamics and leading edge transient definition and overall clarity to the sound. I've heard the Magico Mini 2 sound excellent in different height rooms and at different distances from the listening seat and at different height relationships with the listener. The speaker has a fixed tilt of 2.7 degrees. I don't think the slight change in speaker height effected the sound that much if at all. The time alignment of the Mini 2 drivers will be different for each different distance between the listener and speaker. And if the 1/2" height difference is the cause of what I heard, then I don't see a way around it and I still conclude that the Stillpoints are not right for my system and my tastes.

I'm sure that many people who try Stillpoints under their speakers slightly change the height of the speakers, either up or down. Yet they all report positive results. Surely some people who like the Stillpoints had their speakers raised or lowered by some amount and/or don't have articulating driver cabinets like upper level Wilsons. I don't know if or how the folks at Stillpoints address this issue, but I have not see this reason brought up to explain the few published negative experiences with the product.

On balance, I just did not like their effect in my system. Clearly others love the effect. I'm disappointed because I had such high expectations.

 

[rockitman]

Try them under the speakers. Using them under stands is a compromise, imo. That said, maybe the stand tops are too small for use with Ultra 5's. I bet Ultra SS would make a better match for monitor sized speakers. Under the stands, bad idea, imo.

 

[PeterA]

Try them under the speakers. Using them under stands is a compromise, imo. That said, maybe the stand tops are too small for use with Ultra 5's. I bet Ultra SS would make a better match for monitor sized speakers. Under the stands, bad idea, imo.

What do you base this on? A compromise how? The stand top is the same size as the stand bottom as viewed in the photo. The speaker is larger and heavier than many components that people report using with the Ultra 5. The three Ultra 5s easily fit under the stand, so there is room above the stand also, but I don't think this is a good idea. The Mini 2 is not as giant as your Wilsons, but it is still a very substantial design.

The speaker is coupled to the stand with three large ball bearings in steel cups. The speaker weights 90 lbs and the stand is an additional 110 lbs for a total of 200 lbs. It is perhaps one of the most substantial two-way monitor speakers ever designed. The stand top is tilted back 2.7 degrees and I'd be afraid that the speaker might slide back if I put the Ultra 5s under it. There are no threaded inserts under the speaker top module, just the three steel cups. The whole concept of the Mini 2 speaker is that it is a massive monitor coupled to a massive stand. The three ball bearings are integral to the design and the idea is not to have any movement between the two. There are incredible pressures inside the sealed cabinet. Those pressures would probably get the smooth Ultra disks to slide off the stand, even if they could be connected to the speaker itself.

The Stillpoints disks slide relative to each other and it is this movement that I think blurrs the leading transient edge that my friends and I all clearly heard over the last few days of listening.

I know many people really like the Ultra 5s. I had high expectations for them myself, especially reading all the positive reports on this forum, so I tried them in my system for a few days and gave them a very fair listen. I just think their negatives outweigh their positives in my system and in my room. Apparently Madfloyd has had a similar experience with them recently. And I know of one case where they did not work out under a turntable. But mixed results with tweaks is common. Other's milage does vary.

 

[rockitman]

I base it on experience Peter. Do you think people who put SP's under components put them under the existing crap feet ? No they don't because you want the device to be in contact with the vibrating device, namely the speaker in your case, not the stand. If you can't fit 4 ultra fives on top of your stand, do 3. Your current implementation is completely wrong and goes into the face of why stillpoints should be used in the first place. Best of luck.

 

[LL21]

I have a berber carpet (very short pile) on a first story floor (which can be excited by certain frequencies) so I had high hopes for this tightening up the bass. I'll give a listen again tomorrow when my ears are fresh and see what I think. I know the right speaker is a little rocky (not quite level) and maybe that isn't helping.

Hi MadFloyd...I will say, no tweak is ever perfect. It may be they don't work for you. But before you give up on them just yet, I will say if one speaker is a little rocky, then having Ultra 5s will be BRUTAL. That does not surprise me...I certainly have used Ultra 5s where it was off and not secure, and things were bad. Does not mean it works for you, but if you can fix that and get it all level, that will definitely help. Good luck.

 

[LL21]

What do you base this on? A compromise how? The stand top is the same size as the stand bottom as viewed in the photo. The speaker is larger and heavier than many components that people report using with the Ultra 5. The three Ultra 5s easily fit under the stand, so there is room above the stand also, but I don't think this is a good idea. The Mini 2 is not as giant as your Wilsons, but it is still a very substantial design.

The speaker is coupled to the stand with three large ball bearings in steel cups. The speaker weights 90 lbs and the stand is an additional 110 lbs for a total of 200 lbs. It is perhaps one of the most substantial two-way monitor speakers ever designed. The stand top is tilted back about 17 degrees and I'd be afraid that the speaker might slide back if I put the Ultra 5s under it. There are no threaded inserts under the speaker top module, just the three steel cups. The whole concept of the Mini 2 speaker is that it is a massive monitor coupled to a massive stand. The three ball bearings are integral to the design and the idea is not to have any movement between the two. There are incredible pressures inside the sealed cabinet. Those pressures would probably get the smooth Ultra disks to slide off the stand, even if they could be connected to the speaker itself.

The Stillpoints disks slide relative to each other and it is this movement that I think blurrs the leading transient edge that my friends and I all clearly heard over the last few days of listening.

I know many people really like the Ultra 5s. I had high expectations for them myself, especially reading all the positive reports on this forum, so I tried them in my system for a few days and gave them a very fair listen. I just think their negatives outweigh their positives in my system and in my room. Apparently Madfloyd has had a similar experience with them recently. And I know of one case where they did not work out under a turntable. But mixed results with tweaks is common. Other's milage does vary.

No tweak is perfect, Peter. But since you have them...perhaps a few things to consider before you give up on them? The Magico stand is on 3 balls that are meant to drain the stands energy...you are no longer using them by placing the Ultra 5s directly under the flat surface of the stand. Is it possible that all that's happening is the stand vibration is just 'stuck' now between the Ultra 5s and speakers? Hey...I've always said, I am no techie.

I do know from experience they can be a big negative when setup 'just off'...but I have not yet had a situation where by resetting them it was not better. I have them on 7 components now...all with a slightly different placement (other than the 2 speakers which of course have them in the same 4 places in lieu of Wilson screws).

I also wonder if you find different sound from different placement of the Ultra 5s even under the flat surface of the stand and, yes, also under the speakers directly.

Not trying to say they will work or they must work...just saying experimentation has proven very very worthwhile to me...frustrating while trying but worth it in the end. Good luck.

 

[PeterA]

No tweak is perfect, Peter. But since you have them...perhaps a few things to consider before you give up on them? The Magico stand is on 3 balls that are meant to drain the stands energy...you are no longer using them by placing the Ultra 5s directly under the flat surface of the stand. Is it possible that all that's happening is the stand vibration is just 'stuck' now between the Ultra 5s and speakers? Hey...I've always said, I am no techie.

I do know from experience they can be a big negative when setup 'just off'...but I have not yet had a situation where by resetting them it was not better. I have them on 7 components now...all with a slightly different placement (other than the 2 speakers which of course have them in the same 4 places in lieu of Wilson screws).

I also wonder if you find different sound from different placement of the Ultra 5s even under the flat surface of the stand and, yes, also under the speakers directly.

Not trying to say they will work or they must work...just saying experimentation has proven very very worthwhile to me...frustrating while trying but worth it in the end. Good luck.

Thanks for the suggestions LL21. I agree no tweak is perfect. Alas, I no longer have them as I returned them to their owner yesterday. Your comment seems to be at odds with what Christian wrote. He said that the stands are not vibrating and that the vibrating piece in my case is the speakers themselves, not the stands. So he suggested I put them under the speaker unit itself. I responded to his suggestion in my post above. I agree with you that those Magico balls are designed to drain energy down and away from the speaker itself into the massive aluminum stand. If the stand is still vibrating, then I would think the Ultra 5s would work as intended. In fact, I think they may be working as intended. They do decouple the component from the supporting surface and attempt to convert vibrational energy into heat. I think they do this. I just did not like the effect. That's just me and the two fellow WBF members who heard them also in my system.

Thank you and Chrisitian for your wishes of good luck, but the Stillpoints have been returned to their owner who now plans to reevaluate them under his speakers based on what he heard during the two listening sessions at my place. Unfortunately, not every tweak works in every system. It takes some time to understand how these effect the sonics of a system. No harm done.

I look forward to reading what Madfloyd ends up thinking about his evaluation.

 

[ack]

It took me about a minute listening to Peter's system with the Stillpoints on yesterday to realize they are not appropriate for his system - the leading edge was much softer and the bass seriously attenuated. The product has a serious limitation which should theoretically render it inappropriate under speakers, and as Peter says, it is this:

The Stillpoints disks slide relative to each other and it is this movement that I think blurrs the leading transient edge that my friends and I all clearly heard over the last few days of listening.

What you want for this application is a solid mechanical ground that also converts vibrations to heat; the Ultra 5s cannot provide a solid mechanical ground, unlike for example, the original single-ball Stillpoints (that I use to suspend my turntable's granite shelf), which is a solid product (no sway, no part movements) and also converts energy. I suspect the Ultra 5s would be more appropriate under sensitive electronics components, but then again, so are the original Stillpoints. Speaking of them, I did compare the original with the Ultra SS's (not the 5s) under the same turntable and heard no apparent difference, some years ago - and they both equally attenuate noise with a simple knuckle rap test.

I suspect solid products like the Magico QPods would be more appropriate under speakers, and I say this simply because I ended up using apparently the same isolation material as Magico - long before the QPods came about - called E.A.R. Isodamp C1002, a product used in aeronautical applications (I believe I had a thread about this product 3-4 years ago???). That product is also very effective under the turntable.

To me, clearly the Ultra 5s are NOT a no-brainer.

 

[zztop7]

They do decouple the component from the supporting surface and attempt to convert vibrational energy into heat. I think they do this. .

To knowledgeable Stillpoint owners:
? "convert vibrational energy into heat" ? makes sense - is this correct? /
when a heavy speaker is working away on top of these, do the Stillpoints warm-up or heat!-up? /
has anyone put a pyrometer on the operating Stillpoints? - pyrometer before use & at different time interval during use?

Thank you in advance for any info.

zz.

 

[Steve Williams]

Speaking of adapters that screw in, the bottom of one of my Alexias has a tight threading. I can't screw a Stillpoint into it - it goes a 1/4" and gets stuck. Very stuck. I can't even screw in the Wilson spike without it getting stuck at the same point. The speaker came like this and I was able to use an allen wrench on the spike to force it in, but the Stillpoint adapters don't have this feature.

Any thoughts?

I had the same problem with 2 of my adapters but did manage to get them installed. Won't be fun to remove them if and when the time comes