I'm tempted but my brain keeps telling me No.

tony ky ma

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Tony IIRC your silver wire transformers and electronics are outboard. Did you ever try to upgrade the stock boards and keep the stock format?
Roger IIRC repro card can divide to three parts, first stage gain with EQ, second gain with frequency adjust, both is non linear amp last one is linear gain with output transformer in pull and push style (transistor), this circuit sound muddy less transparency is better to replace into tube circuit, non linear stage can be replaced all the coupling cap to a better cap that is good enough unless want to use passive filter for EQ then has to change gain in all stage too which is a big redesign !
tony ma
 

RogerD

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Thanks, Roger:b

There are people all over the world offering mods to Studer tape deck electronics, i.e. cards, and their efforts are sincere.
Should I travel that route I would obtain multiple cards, so I could substitute the factory stock original electronics and consider it the ultimate control variable.
It would serve, as well, as my reference for the stock Studer sound for the A820.

Should I proceed along the external repro head preamp route, I would ensure it would be engineered for optimal performance with various repro heads -- whether 318-series Studer heads, 317-series repro heads, or offerings from Flux Magnetics. This implies the absolute necessity, I believe, to tailor the tape head preamp to the characteristics of the specific repro head currently -lol- in the circuit. I would imagine if one wanted a stepped, external tape head preamp that would escalate cost.

I need to visit Bruce, again, and hear his rig :cool:

Hi Sam,

It's football time...so Ill just say,the only way to go is as you say,purchase a extra set of cards and visit Bruce,after that you'll know what to do.

Good luck,

Roger
 

RogerD

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Roger IIRC repro card can divide to three parts, first stage gain with EQ, second gain with frequency adjust, both is non linear amp last one is linear gain with output transformer in pull and push style (transistor), this circuit sound muddy less transparency is better to replace into tube circuit, non linear stage can be replaced all the coupling cap to a better cap that is good enough unless want to use passive filter for EQ then has to change gain in all stage too which is a big redesign !
tony ma

Tony I think you have it nailed.

thanks,
Roger
 

c1ferrari

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Hi Sam,

It's football time...so Ill just say,the only way to go is as you say,purchase a extra set of cards and visit Bruce,after that you'll know what to do.

Good luck,

Roger

Thanks, Roger :)
 

RogerD

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I crossed back over:D:D Details later
 

RogerD

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I purchased the only Studer deck I would ever want. A C37 U.S. version,one of only six imported by Gotham audio in New York City. Four of these were bought by Barry Gordy of Motown records and the other two were owned by RCA. As far as I know all were purchased second hand by recording studios such as Sear Sound who converted 2 or more to larger format tape. This 1/4 inch could be only 1 or 2 still in their original configuration. The deck hasn't run in 20 years,but the owner had it in a heated dry basement and thinks it should run,no matter. I have collected spare electronics and a NOS butterfly head stack in hopes of one day having this opportunity. When it lands I will post photos. Below is a photo of Motown's cutting lathe with the C37 beside it.



Two of Motown's four Studer C37's with their experimental control board,it was similar to the one at Abbey Road,Bob Ohlsson was the RE.
Bob recorded Marvin Gaye's super classic "What's goin on" with these C37's. Bob arrived at Motown in 1965 and the C37's were already in place. I suspect these were 1962 vintage.

"What I remember was an English translation by Gotham Audio who distributed the C-37 in the US. They were very unusual. We had 4 at Motown and RCA had a few but I never heard of anybody else other than people who bought them second-hand from us or RCA." Bob Olhsson



Hitsville USA, located at 2648 West Grand Boulevard in Detroit, Michigan, and purchased by Berry Gordy in 1959, was Motown's original headquarters, housing its administrative offices and, at the back of the building, its recording studio, the live area of which was commonly referred to as 'The Snake Pit'. In 1965, this was supplemented by a mix room located at 2644 West Grand, yet Studio A was where the classic hits were recorded, and it stayed open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, until the company relocated to Los Angeles in 1972. (The offices moved to a 10-storey building in downtown Detroit in 1968.)
Mike McLean, who joined Motown in January 1961, was the Chief Engineer, and he initially built a pair of half-inch, three-track machines with Sel-sync using Ampex parts. The Marvelettes' 'Please Mr Postman' was recorded during the first three-track session. In addition to the Altec 605A monitors positioned in each corner near the ceiling, the control room housed a five-input, rack-mounted Altec 1567A tube mixer and four-input Ampex MX10. The limited number of effects included an EMT 140 plate reverb and an echo chamber in the attic that had been built by Pop Gordy, Berry's father, with parallel plasterboard walls, a door at each end and an RCA 44BX mic to capture the flutter echo. Other mics included a Neumann U47 and U48, two Electro Voice 666s, a pair of RCA 44BXs and an RCA 77DX. Later on, as part of the 'factory' approach, there would be a switch to all Neumann KM86 condenser mics.
During the early years, it was normal to have the lead vocal on track one, run through a Fairchild 660 mono compressor/limiter and the Altec 1567A. Horns and backing vocals would be on track two, going through a small custom-built console, and the rhythm section, routed to the Ampex MX10, was on track three. Tracks two and three would be cut together, but there wasn't much room for strings, so in 1964 McClean built an Ampex-based one-inch, eight-track machine that was used for the Supremes' 'Where Did Our Love Go'. This would remain until the purchase of a two inch, 16-track four years later, at which time Motown also upgraded to a conventional, state-of-the-art console and Altec 604E monitors.
The mix room at 2644 West Grand had its own eight-input custom console, featuring Langevin slide pots, Centralab rotary pots and API VU meters, along with 604E monitors, Studer C37 two-track tape machines and three echo chambers. Nevertheless, the consensus of opinion among those who played on the classic '60s recordings is that these chambers were outstripped by the one at 2648 West Grand as a contributing factor to the 'Motown Sound'.
"We were always trying different things," says Lamont Dozier. "The recording process was definitely more innovative back then, without synthesizers, and we'd have to improvise on the spot, banging on the piano, using car tyre snow chains — anything to get different effects. By the mid-'60s, everybody was looking for new sounds and new conversation pieces, and so we'd do things to make people wonder, 'What was that?' I mean, we didn't have the luxury that the Beatles enjoyed of always having new equipment invented for us, so we'd just beat on boxes, stomp on two-by-four hardwood floorboards for 'Where Did Our Love Go' — whatever we could come up with... and get away with."

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb08/articles/classictracks_0208.htm
 
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RogerD

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Found this.....great read.

THE TUBE IS MASTER
Restoration of Vintage recorders
A few years ago, I began to miss the nice sound of old vacuum tube mastering machines. The sound of our Studer A80 was quite acceptable, yet it seemed to lack the body and warmth of my old Ampex 300. So I dug a couple of my old Ampex 300 tape recorders out from under the pile of junk in the shop and began to fiddle around with them. These are remarkable machines, and for many decades were the workhorses in almost every recording studio and radio station. I cleaned one up, plugged it in, threaded a reel of tape and...Magic! What a sound.
Thus began an odyssey of transforming the 300 into a 1/2", 15/30ips machine, changing the speeds, rebuilding the electronics and having John French (JRF Magnetic Sciences) design and build a modern set of heads. I made some of the transports by hand, using some aluminum stock that matched the deck perfectly. The rest is history. This became our primary mastering machine at Sear Sound. Many albums were mastered on this machine, and one major label even went so far as to bring in a mixed album, record it onto the Ampex and the take the output from the playback head and re-record onto a Studer CDR CD recorder, just to add the sound of the Ampex machine on the album.
Just when we thought it was safe to go back into the water, I had the chance to pick up two Studer C-37 recorders. The blueprints are dated 1962, and I found that Gotham Audio (then Studer distributor) had sold six of these machines to RCA alone. Once the primary tape recorder in European studios, few C-37s were sold in the states, as Ampex controlled the market by then. I bought the two recorders instantly.
Each machine is a work of art. The electronics are all modular, which simplifies servicing. The transport hinges up and the front cabinet panel drops, providing total access for maintenance, including a convenient plate to put tools on. The deck has its own internal test meter and switch to measure various voltages throughout the recorder. A regular lightbulb is used as a variable resistor to set the proper startup torque to the motors (shades of my old Westrex film recorder that used the same idea). The wiring, harnesses and overall construction were typically Swiss. There are no VU meters on the machine, which is quite proper. When you align the machine, it should always be to the meters on the console.
The recorders were 1/4", 7.5/15 ips machines, so the first task was to change them into 15/30 ips machines, 1/2". After consulting a variety of knowledgeable people - including David Manley, who owns a slew of them - I got some of the parts that I needed. Then came the critical decisions.
I called Jeff Gilman at MDI Precision Motor Works in Hudson, Mass. He has a proprietary method of building up the capstan shaft size by using a ceramic sleeve. He also machined a series of roller guides for the 1/2" tape configuration. The machine nas no fixed guides - everything turns with the tape. Bill Titus did a lot of measurements for the tape path, and we added brass washer shims of different thicknesses to get all of the guides to the right height to match the head block.
The record and playback electronics were another problem. Beside the usual capacitor and tube replacements, the EQ had to be changed to conform to the various new head characterisitics and tape speeds. This is a "trial and error" situation. When you change the frequency curves to try to eliminate the "head bump" in the bass, the higher frequencies are then affected. After some experimentation, we found the right combination.
The final problems were the logic system and control switching. As machines of that vintage use relay logic, all the relays were cleaned up or replaced. Fortunately, the relays are standard "off the shelf" parts. Modern, microprocessor transport control is far superior, yet the relay system works fine, so we left it intact.
With the restoration completed, we ran wow and flutter tests. The machine came out better than the original manufacturer's specs (at 15ips, 0.04% weighted; and at 30ips 0.022% wow and flutter, 0.0175% weighted). Frequency response was what we expected, with the bass bump at 31Hz, starting at +.6 dB and staying within reason down to 15Hz.
The ultimate test for any piece of recording studio equipment is what the client will accept and will want to use in session. Sear Sound had the privilege of being selected to do the mixing for the Eric Clapton Crossroads II album, consisting of live and studio recordings that were recorded in the mid - 70s. (Jay Mark was the engineer and Bill Levenson produced with Kerry Rappaport for PolyGram Records).
The 2-inch masters for the '70s, mostly 16-track, had to be baked in a convection oven at 125 degrees for a couple of hours. They were then played on our Studer A80 16-track, 2-inch machine and recorded with timecode onto a beautiful new Studer A827, as well as a 48-track digital machine (rented from Toy Specialists). I don't like the sound of digital, but if I have to record digitally, this would be the machine of choice. It is built with the same care and attention to detail as the old C-37s. As Jay Mark decided to go 1/2", 15ips, Dolby SR, we set up our various 2-track machines. The moment of truth arrived. Which of our 1/2" machines would be best suited to the Clapton project? Using blind testing, it took about one minute for the choice to be made. The C-37 was the preferred machine to everyone. The sound had sparkle, clarity and "air" that other machines lacked.
The album was completed on the Studer C-37. The machine took a year of work, but it turned out well. At 30ips, the Ampex 300 has an "airier" sound, with more second-harmonic distortion, which many people find pleasing. The Studer is more accurate in terms of frequency response, but this is purely a matter of taste. No solid-state machine in our studio is comparable in sound to either of these machines.
I have always felt the deficiency of the sound of transistor equipment. Knowing this, I have always run a studio full of tube gear. Because of my 30 years' prejudice, I go to great lengths to be sure that this does not bleed over into the listening tests that we do. Neither I nor the visiting engineers know which machine or device they are listening to. They simply select button "A", "B", or "C". The differences are clear and apparent. As it often happens, the engineers' decision is the same as that of the producer and studio personnel. There is a clear and distinct difference, and in all the years of testing equipment, I can't recall any situation where vacuum tubes didn't sound superior to transistors.
--Walter Sear

http://forum.soundup.ru/viewtopic.php?p=43792
 

Jazzbo

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Hello Roger,
This is super interesting. This is history I knew nothing about. To know that Motown owned several of these tape decks is exciting. Many of us danced off of the music of Marvin Gaye as well as Smokey Robinson. Thanks for sharing.

jazzbo Bob
 

RogerD

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Hello Roger,
This is super interesting. This is history I knew nothing about. To know that Motown owned several of these tape decks is exciting. Many of us danced off of the music of Marvin Gaye as well as Smokey Robinson. Thanks for sharing.

jazzbo Bob

Thanks Bob,

This C37 was one of the RCA decks, that's what I love about these machines, the history. This C37 was purchased by this owner 30 years ago,used for 3 years and then in storage for the last 15 years. Anyway should have it in about 14 days.

Motown had 4 C37 and RCA had 3,but probably 6,so a total of 10 imported by Gotham Audio. Where are the rest?

Well digital is good for something:D


60HZ 117V
 
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Jazzbo

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Thanks Bob,

This C37 was one of the RCA decks and could have been owned by David Sarser,but I'm not 100 pct sure. That's what I love about these machines. This C37 was purchased by this owner 30 years ago,used for 3 years and then in storage for the last 15 years. Anyway should have it in about 14 days.

Hello again Roger,

You Ki and others must live in castles in order to have room to house all of these monster tape decks. My hats off to you and thanks for sharing info about these extraordinary machines. I am sure the cost to have that tape deck delivered is as much as I just paid for my tube head pre amp (LOL). It's mouth watering to get continued tape deck info from you guys.

bob
 

RogerD

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No solid-state machine in our studio is comparable in sound to either of these machines.
I have always felt the deficiency of the sound of transistor equipment. Knowing this, I have always run a studio full of tube gear. Because of my 30 years' prejudice, I go to great lengths to be sure that this does not bleed over into the listening tests that we do. Neither I nor the visiting engineers know which machine or device they are listening to. They simply select button "A", "B", or "C". The differences are clear and apparent. As it often happens, the engineers' decision is the same as that of the producer and studio personnel. There is a clear and distinct difference, and in all the years of testing equipment, I can't recall any situation where vacuum tubes didn't sound superior to transistors.
--Walter Sear

I would disagree with Walter on his opinion about transistor sound....maybe a week ago it was different,but now I think a 440 rev B can surely push the envelope. After listening and having 200+ hours on my record cards I have to draw that conclusion. That's comparing the 350 record side with the 440. I expect the MR70 will break new ground,but right now I prefer the 440 and I never thought I would be able to say that.
 

RogerD

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The importer for Studer in the early years was Gotham Audio who's owner was Steven Temmer. A small piece on him is posted on the Gotham Audio site.

http://www.gothamaudiousa.com/history/temmer.htm

His reputation wasn't the best as on other sites he is noted for his demeanor and tough stance on the Swiss German products he represented as the distributor .

As noted by a poster.

"Steve Temmer was the US Studer importer when the J37/C37 were new machines. Nobody else could legitimately import Studer then. And Mr. Temmer was really notorious for not supporting grey market equipment. If you wanted then to buy a new J37/C37 in the USA, you had to buy it from Gotham Audio. What Burt has to say on this is extremely true. And in the day, it was cheaper to buy an Ampex 300 or 350 new then. The only major audio manufacturer I know of who ever escaped Steve Temmer's clutches for USA representation was Studer (who eventually opened their own USA branch). This attitude out of Steve Temmer and Gotham Audio is why it is so difficult to find a USA voltage Studer C or J 37 tape machine."

Ampex was king in the 50-70's in the American market with Studer trying to break into this market.It is no wonder that the US voltage models were hard to find.
 

c1ferrari

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This C37 was one of the RCA decks, that's what I love about these machines, the history. This C37 was purchased by this owner 30 years ago,used for 3 years and then in storage for the last 15 years. Anyway should have it in about 14 days.

Nice, Roger.
:D
 

RogerD

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RogerD

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Part of doing a functional rebuild on a C37 would be to upgrade the record and playback amplifiers. The good news is the electronics use PCB's and are excellent candidates for a quality upgrade. The signal path caps are small values and there are many choices available. All the resistors and capacitors are standard values which is highly positive.






 
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RogerD

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The C37 is off to NYC next week for a restoration. I have a extra record module,headstack, and butterfly head. The headstack on the machine looks to be in good shape,that goes to John at JRF. The record and playback boards go to Chuck Ziska to build them to my specs. I am hoping to have it back before the holidays.




 

RogerD

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Me and my brother drove down to beautiful Grass Valley this morning and had breakfast with Fred Thal. It was thoroughly enjoyable as we talked tape,transports and sound. Fred has his Model 3 machine coming out soon and will have the incomparable "Cello" (the real Cello) electronics. Fred's passion for excellence is catching and I might just have to have one of these machines someday. He explained in depth about tape movement and why he prefers Studer's to other decks. We did a little trading and I picked up a very clean AG440C servo machine. Overall just a nice way to spend most of a sunny morning.

http://www.ataestuder.com/our-products/the-classic-a80-mk-iv-cello-limited-edition/
 

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