If I leave my 610t's then what

[brad225]

I am now thinking of a change from my 610t's while they have substantial tube life left.
I would love to switch to a pair of 750SE but the thought of $5600 per amp for re-tubing is a bit more than I might be willing to live with.

What I am curious is what if I move to 250SE or 160M?
Will the headroom I enjoy with the 610t's be noticeable?

Any of you able to give me thoughts on this dilemma>

Thanks

 

[asiufy]

I'd definitely go for 160Ms. Your speakers seem to be 90dB eff./6 ohms, so shouldn't be much of a problem for the 160s.

 

[brad225]

As a dealer I respect your advice.
My concern is the difference in sound between the 610t's -250SE-160M.

Comments I have read refer to the 160M only sounding better then the 250SE when run in triode mode. It also referred to the sound in triode being more like the Classic 60, 120 and 150 amps sound.
I owned Classic 120's and the step up to VTM200's was more to my liking.

When i went from VTM200's to the 610t'S it wasn't an increase in volume but the sound was so much different. Fuller sound stage, more precise image and placement of voices and instruments.
I realize the VTM200 was a much older amp though and had a different designs.

2 more item to complicate my decision.
The 250SE are available new in the box for almost 1/2 MSRP and the 160M, MSRP less a discount I may or may not get.
They are at different dealers so comparing them head to head in my system can't happen.
Would any of this sway you away from the 160M.
Thanks for your thought

 

[asiufy]

Yes, there's a lot of people jumping on 250s right now. I expect to be taking those as trade-ins (towards 160Ms) in the near future, though. As the 160M sounds quite a bit better

Whoever told you the 160M would only sound good in triode obviously has a very specific preference. I actually hardly ever use triode mode on ours, with Wilson speakers (listening to this combo right now, BTW!) My preference, though, as I think it sounds too "old school", too "tubey" for most kinds of music. It's fun for certain kinds of music, though. Solo piano, violin, small stuff, sounds absolutely gorgeous with it. But ultralinear is the way to go for most listens, at least for me.

And like I said, we've had the 610T here. And it is exactly that warmer, fuller, richer, more "old school", "tubey" sound, which I'm not too fond of. The difference is that I can switch out of it on the 160M, while the 610T has it all the time

Mine is only a data point, of course, and like I said, preferences play a big part. If you do listen to the 160M, even on a different system, the differences to your 610T should be fairly obvious. If you like that direction, then go fo it!

So, bottom line is, even at full retail, I'd go for the 160M over the 1/2 MSRP 250. Assuming you want to buy the amp and keep it for a long time, of course.

 

[brad225]

Thanks again for your help. I guess I need to see what speakers both might have in common and give them a listen.

 

[brad225]

asiufy, am i understanding you that you think the 250SE sounds like the 610t?
How would you compare the 250SE's ability to fill a wide deep sound stage as the 610's do?
In my system I have never thought of the 610t's as the " old school, tubey sound.
If the 250's sound like the 610t's I could live with that happily. The only reason I am looking to move on is the reliability of the 610t's going forward.
Based on that how would you compare them?

Thanks

 

[asiufy]

The 250SE is a step in the current, more "modern" (so to speak) direction of ARC sound, like the REF75SE was too, which culminated into the current 160M/S designs, and that are my personal favorites.
I believe if you dig the 610T (and it seems that you do), and you're not quite ready for a change in sound signature, the REF250SE is a safe choice. I'm sorry that I can't address specific things like soundstaging, as my experience with these amps were on different systems.
My client who had 610Ts went to 750s, though. But he does have a pair of D'Agostino amps that he switches in from time to time, to reduce the wear on the 750's tubes. He has found the D'Agostino to be the most tube-like SS amp, so he doesn't miss the 750s so much.

 

[tima]

I thought quite highly of the Ref 250 as a comparison when I reviewed the Lamm M1.2 Ref, and later with the 250SE. If you enjoy pinpoint imaging, three-dimensionality and a spacious soundstage, those ARC amps deliver. To my ears the latest line of ARC electronics is a bit more forward and punchy, more contrasty, than the preceding generation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am now thinking of a change from my 610t's while they have substantial tube life left.
I would love to switch to a pair of 750SE but the thought of $5600 per amp for re-tubing is a bit more than I might be willing to live with.

What I am curious is what if I move to 250SE or 160M?
Will the headroom I enjoy with the 610t's be noticeable?

Any of you able to give me thoughts on this dilemma>

Thanks

What speakers are you using?

What line-stage preamplifier are you using?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I thought quite highly of the Ref 250 as a comparison when I reviewed the Lamm M1.2 Ref, and later with the 250SE.

. . .

And a great review it was!

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/lamm_m12_reference.htm

Tim, have you ever had occasion to review the Lamm M2.2?

 

[brad225]

Hi Ron, I am using the ARC 40th Ann. Pre and Martin Logan CLX. I believe my not hearing tubey sound is electrostatics, for me, don't project that sound.

 

[tima]

And a great review it was!

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/lamm_m12_reference.htm

Tim, have you ever had occasion to review the Lamm M2.2?

Thank you, Ron. I would love to review the M2.2 monos and hear them with my Alexia 2s. They can deliver 220W into an 8 or 4 ohm load, down to 600W into 1 ohm. As it stands my plate for this year is full with four (!) Lamm front-end electronics to write about.

 

[asiufy]

Brad,

Honestly, I believe it's personal preference/taste, just not you not hearing it or the speakers not conveying it. You like what you have, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that I used those terms in the least pejorative fashion, as I just wanted to describe what I heard, as my preference is NOT for that kind of sound, much to the opposite! I much prefer, as tima put it, the more forward, punchy sound of the latest ARC amps.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron, I am using the ARC 40th Ann. Pre and Martin Logan CLX. I believe my not hearing tubey sound is electrostatics, for me, don't project that sound.

For myself for CLX I would consider:

ARC REF750SE

VTL Siegfried II

VTL MB-450 Series III

Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse

Lamm M2.2

Often these amps can be found used at very reasonable prices way below MSRP.

VAC 450iq likely works great too, but I have no experience with VAC on MartinLogans or on Magnepans.

 

[microstrip]

I am now thinking of a change from my 610t's while they have substantial tube life left.
I would love to switch to a pair of 750SE but the thought of $5600 per amp for re-tubing is a bit more than I might be willing to live with.

What I am curious is what if I move to 250SE or 160M?
Will the headroom I enjoy with the 610t's be noticeable?

Any of you able to give me thoughts on this dilemma>

Thanks

Forget about it!!! IMHO any of the moves you suggest will be a downgrade. The REF 250's are great amplifiers, but can't be compared with the with the 610T's . Easiness, scale and transients - they loose in all aspects.

And will probably be a poor match with CLX, the REF250 have much higher output impedance than the REF610T.

If you can stand the heat keep the 610T's. Do you have them with KT120's?

 

[tdh888]

I sent you a pm Brad .

 

[brad225]

Brad,

Honestly, I believe it's personal preference/taste, just not you not hearing it or the speakers not conveying it. You like what you have, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that I used those terms in the least pejorative fashion, as I just wanted to describe what I heard, as my preference is NOT for that kind of sound, much to the opposite! I much prefer, as tima put it, the more forward, punchy sound of the latest ARC amps.

Thanks asifuy, I have never been bothered by anyone not liking the sound I like so no issue with your comments.

If all of the new ARC amps have the forward, punchy sound you describe it clearly is not what I'm looking for. I have spent to long working on the acoustics and adjusting equipment to move back that way.

 

[brad225]

For myself for CLX I would consider:

ARC REF750SE

VTL Siegfried II

VTL MB-450 Series III

Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse

Lamm M2.2

Often these amps can be found used at very reasonable prices way below MSRP.

VAC 450iq likely works great too, but I have no experience with VAC on MartinLogans or on Magnepans.

Thanks Ron I will see if I can cross paths with some of these amps.

 

[brad225]

Forget about it!!! IMHO any of the moves you suggest will be a downgrade. The REF 250's are great amplifiers, but can't be compared with the with the 610T's . Easiness, scale and transients - they loose in all aspects.

And will probably be a poor match with CLX, the REF250 have much higher output impedance than the REF610T.

If you can stand the heat keep the 610T's. Do you have them with KT120's?

Thanks for the direct comparison between the amps.

I have 2 Tons of AC committed to the room. When I did the calculations it was 1 Ton just to cover the total tube heat plus the room and people.

In 2016 I inquired with ARC about the upgrade and was told they did not offer the upgrade any more.

 

[microstrip]

(...) In 2016 I inquired with ARC about the upgrade and was told they did not offer the upgrade any more.

Some people preferred them with the 6550's - I have listened to great sound with both versions, unfortunately never side by side. As far as I could learn, the circuit modifications were minimal - mainly in the driver circuit.